Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
And another thing. I’ve searched the internet and can’t find one photo of an early G6 that shows the spacing of the lettering on the side of the tanks. Mmm
Jon
Jon
LSWR G6 0-6-0 tank engine
- Thread starter Jon Nazareth
- Start date
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
I added these spacers to the smokebox formers following the idea that Nick Baines' used on his LNWR Precedent. The wrapper is next and I have both .010" and .020" cut to size but, I think the former size will be easier to form those reverse curves with.
I actually sorted out the buffer number transfers to apply yesterday. However, I noticed that the letters were the wrong font and the numbers not the style in a photograph of 257 that I have and so, that job was cancelled. I've ordered some replacements. I'm not a 'rivet counter' and some things on this project I'll alter because either I can't do them myself or, easier if I do it in a certain way. Just thought that I'd put that in
Jon
I actually sorted out the buffer number transfers to apply yesterday. However, I noticed that the letters were the wrong font and the numbers not the style in a photograph of 257 that I have and so, that job was cancelled. I've ordered some replacements. I'm not a 'rivet counter' and some things on this project I'll alter because either I can't do them myself or, easier if I do it in a certain way. Just thought that I'd put that in
Jon
Last edited:
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
Ted Sadler adjusted my camera at the AGM and now, pictures are coming out this size! 
Jon
Jon
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
This is my first attempt at forming the smokebox wrapper.
First of all, I didn't have bolts nor studding the right length and so had to make some up, plus nuts. I'm not sure if I used copper or phosphor bronze but it was a bit of a pig to thread. I then made up the little wooden pieces only to find that the edges of the inside ones were fouling on each other and so, I planed them down. Now, I'm finding that I need to use more clamps to shape the wrapper but smaller. This time I'll make
some replacements using wood that has a smaller cross-sectional size. I have some 8mm square stuff and, I'm hoping that that will do the trick. Back to the drawing board and while I'm on my way, I'd like to quote Chuck Berry who once sang, 'C'est la vie say the old folks which goes to show you never can tell'.
It may seem that I’m going to a lot of effort on this but, if the idea works, I can use the clamps on another engine’s smokebox that is waiting in the wings.
Jon
First of all, I didn't have bolts nor studding the right length and so had to make some up, plus nuts. I'm not sure if I used copper or phosphor bronze but it was a bit of a pig to thread. I then made up the little wooden pieces only to find that the edges of the inside ones were fouling on each other and so, I planed them down. Now, I'm finding that I need to use more clamps to shape the wrapper but smaller. This time I'll make
some replacements using wood that has a smaller cross-sectional size. I have some 8mm square stuff and, I'm hoping that that will do the trick. Back to the drawing board and while I'm on my way, I'd like to quote Chuck Berry who once sang, 'C'est la vie say the old folks which goes to show you never can tell'.It may seem that I’m going to a lot of effort on this but, if the idea works, I can use the clamps on another engine’s smokebox that is waiting in the wings.
Jon
Last edited:
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Jon,
I hope you are going to roll and shape the wrapper before you solder it onto the formers. If you don’t you may find that the spring of the metal will eventually overcome the solder and it will come apart. Been there!
Ian.
I hope you are going to roll and shape the wrapper before you solder it onto the formers. If you don’t you may find that the spring of the metal will eventually overcome the solder and it will come apart. Been there!
Ian.
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
I had thought of that but I wasn’t going to, Ian. I do have a set of rollers but I’ve never had much joy with them. I may try wrapping by hand around a suitable piece of steel to take out some of the spring.
Jon
Paul Tomlinson
Western Thunderer
Jon, I'd strongly recommend your watching Nick Dunhill constructing a smokebox from scratch in this Gauge 0 Guild video. IMO forming the wrapper to shape prior to getting out the soldering iron is the way to go.
Not sure why you need a set of rollers - this is a completely different job (the quadrant for a lever frame) but it shows the principle of rolling without rollers. This is .45mm nickel silver. To roll to a tighter radius, just use a smaller roller / press harder / use a softer backing. I roll 4mm scale boilers etc this way.
I made this as I got fed up of everyone telling me it was imposible! Hope it helps.
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Even rolling in your hands to nearly the shape is better than forcing it against the spring of the metal. Your wooden clamps will help to get a good close joint just remember to tin the edge of the formers to ensure full penetration all round the seam. If you have a set of rollers I suggest you use them to curve the whole wrapper and then open out the bottom part over a bit of bar. Rollers give a very even curve, sometimes hand working introduces a bend or tighter radius at one point.
Ian.
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
Mike
I made up the spacers for my smokebox taking into account the measurement of the smokebox baseplate supplied with the kit. When I came to try the wrapper supplied in the kit, I found that it was too narrow hence my making a new wrapper.
Jon
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
Paul
That's an encouraging video. I've had to order some rod to make some studding and don't expect it until the end of next week. I'll make to new clamps and also form as much as i can by hand. I'll report back here how I get on.
Jon
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
Adrian
You are quite right about the half hard nickel sheet. This is a piece of .018" that I was tweaking gently around a 2" diameter bar when it cracked! I think that that was my last piece of nickel but, I have some .015" brass that I could use. If all else fails, I have a good supply of .010". The problem with the smaller thickness is that it dents so easily if I'm not careful when forming it. Any little 'thing' left on the forming bar puts a dent into it.
Jon
You are quite right about the half hard nickel sheet. This is a piece of .018" that I was tweaking gently around a 2" diameter bar when it cracked! I think that that was my last piece of nickel but, I have some .015" brass that I could use. If all else fails, I have a good supply of .010". The problem with the smaller thickness is that it dents so easily if I'm not careful when forming it. Any little 'thing' left on the forming bar puts a dent into it.
Jon
NickB
Western Thunderer
Jon,
That photo really surprised me. I've worked with "half hard" of that thickness and I've never had that happen. Without wishing to speculate too much, it looks like it was trying to fold itself rather than curve. I agree entirely with what others here have said about using rollers.
Nick
That photo really surprised me. I've worked with "half hard" of that thickness and I've never had that happen. Without wishing to speculate too much, it looks like it was trying to fold itself rather than curve. I agree entirely with what others here have said about using rollers.
Nick
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
Nick
When it cracked, I was surprised, and bent it just to see if the crack would get worse hence the straight edge. There may have been a fault in the sheet.
Jon
When it cracked, I was surprised, and bent it just to see if the crack would get worse hence the straight edge. There may have been a fault in the sheet.
Jon
I think the grain is running the wrong way in this piece. (ie it had been cropped across the width rather than along the length of the original sheet). In that situation I would always anneal before forming to any degree otherwise ... Once annealed it cannot be re-hardened of course, but .018" is tough enough for the softness not to be an issue. For .018", my preference is always to anneal before rolling in any case; that way the grain - and a lot of resistance - is gone!
Speaking only for myself, I would never use brass for anything! Its high thermal conductivity makes it a pig to solder whereas N/S can be held in the fingers just a short distance from the joint! If there were no N/S on the planet, I would use tinplate! If frustrates me that some kit providers persist in using "etched brass". Fortunately, the better ones know what they are doing - there is a cost difference, but well worth it.
Hope that helps,
Howard
adrian
Flying Squad
Yes you do need to be careful, It helps if you sandwich the sheet between a couple of sheets of plasticard to protect the n/s. I have rolled smokeboxes with embossed rivet detail in this manner.
Totally agree and the cost difference is definitely worth it.
Jon Nazareth
Western Thunderer
I followed Nick Dunhill's method when I formed this wrapper. I used .010" thick nickel sheet and this time, no cracking. The large curve was fairly easy to do but the reverse curves took some time to get right. A lot of tweaking was carried out but, I got there in the end. The soldering went well and it flowed to the inside of the wrapper leaving a small bead. There are a couple of places that I would have liked to have gone a bit better but all in all, I'm happy. I wonder what it would have been like to have tried with .018" thick material, especially on those reverse curves. Maybe, I'll experiment with some next time.
Jon
Jon
NickB
Western Thunderer
I'd be interested to know how you anneal sheet material. I've not had much success using a gas flame. It always seems to buckle and I put that down to uneven heating. I did think about a small electrical furnace such as jewellers use to ensure that the material soaks to a uniform temperature, but couldn't justify the cost. In its unannealled state it needs a bit more effort to bend, but I get there.
Nick
I don't have any magic Nick and I suspect there are people round here with much more experience than I - but here are some thoughts:
Remember we are talking about 0.018" and upwards here and, lest I give a wrong impression, I agree that annealing should be a relatively rare requirement - half-hard N/S has many upsides! So I am talking to Jon's situation where he experienced cracking - ie, when you try forming something, you can "feel" that the job is fighting you.
First thing is to cut out a peice for each component (with a margin - it can be done with snips, score-and-bend or a guillotine) - rather than trying to do a whole sheet. Secondly not to hold the flame too close to the component in the initial stages - otherwise there will be local heating (and distortion). Third to move the flame right over the component (ie off the edges (like you would when spraying) so that every part of it is heated uniformly, rather than any part being locally heated by sustained direct contact with the flame. As the oxide colours develop during the intial stages, you will quickly see where the heat is tending to localise and you can adjust your movements to compensate. I rest the component on a piece of metal - ideally copper if I have piece big enough - and stand the lot on a ceramic mat (or a fire brick if it is a big job!). It is a good idea to put some refractory material (mat/firebrick) round the job to reflect back some indirect heat - otherwise (a) you waste a lot of heat and (b) draughts etc, can cause localised cold spots. It is important to know where the hottest part of the flame is and to remember that the pale blue cone is unburnt gas - and so is stone cold! Beware pencil flame torches - the heat is too concentrated for anything but small jobs.
I suppose in theory and given enough experience, you could use the flame of a domestic gas cooker (remembering that the bit you grip the job with stays cold so change grip frequently), but I have three propane torches - ranging from a pencil flame up to mini-flame-thrower size and that is much my preferred method - though for small parts the gas cooker will do the job (not least in winter when the shed is uninviting!).
It is worth remembering that sheet materials have quite high levels of internal stress from the rolling process (hence the cracking Jon described) and since this is relieved by annealling, some degree of movement is likely, but is usually no worse than the curl which is often in the original sheet in any case.
I would also mention that I have seen it written that the component must be allowed to cool naturally, but there is no real reason for that and it can be quenced in cold water without any metalurgical impact. However, for larger pieces, that can cause distortion so unless you are in a desperate hurry, air cooling does no harm. After such treatment, the surface of the metal is oxidised and will need rubbing up - it is soft, so take care, otherwise you will put dents / creases / marks in it! I put it flat on a piece of wood and rub-up with home made emery blocks (MDF faced with various grades of wet-or-dry carborumdum paper - amongst the most useful tools in my box!).
If you use snips a lot for cutting, they can leave a distorted edge. After the piece has been softened, it can be planished, and you can get decent polished anvils and hammers for this job from the usual suppliers in the jewelry trade (ie Walshes, Cousins etc). Go steady or you will harden it again or induce a nice curl!
Let me not pretend that I am scratch building locos every week - I am not - but I have done a fair but of this (for this and other hobbies) over the years and never really experienced any difficulties with it.
I see Jon wonders about using 0.018" material but to me, thinnest is best for rolling to avoid any need to soften. If you do anneal, after rolling, N?S regains a surprising degree of work hardening, so you will be unlucky to dent it (but we have all done it!). But using thinner sheet usually means that annealing is not needed - at least not for simple rolling jobs - provided you roll along, and not across the grain of the sheet. If anyone is unsure, I would always recommend experimenting to find out what suits you - so get a piece of 0.018" and anneal it, and get a piece of 0.010" in half-hard and try rolling both and see how it goes!! This is a skill after all and skill needs practice ...
Hope that helps, and is not TOO patronising!!
Howard