Mickoo's American Modelling Empire

simond

Western Thunderer
Handy to know :thumbs:

It’s a good many decades since I did scenery work and things have moved on I suspect.

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The ballast is Javis - that on the card is glued with PVA and the stuff on the baseboard is glued with latex

There is a clear green tinge to the PVA-glued stuff: though it’s not hyper obvious in the photo, you can see a difference I hope

I haven’t used PVA for ballasting since having to rip up a load of my previous mini-layout
 

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
View attachment 211823

The ballast is Javis - that on the card is glued with PVA and the stuff on the baseboard is glued with latex

There is a clear green tinge to the PVA-glued stuff: though it’s not hyper obvious in the photo, you can see a difference I hope

I haven’t used PVA for ballasting since having to rip up a load of my previous mini-layout

Interesting - I've always used watered down PVA for this sort of thing. Never had an issue with greening and, one of the benefits has been easy of removal - just apply water to loosen it all up again.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
It only happens on real granite. The coconut stuff is fine with PVA.

A kettle of boiling water makes a horrid mess but the track comes up no bother - latex or PVA.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Wonder if it's something on the Granite from source, maybe not washed or coated in something?

I'm not sure what the WWS stuff is, probably Granite but will have to see if I can dig that out and maybe try a test patch....I've got 5 litres of PVA so would really like to use it :))
 

simond

Western Thunderer
PVA is very good for making scenery with woven paketo cornflako strips and ripped up newspaper. Probably more use for the rolling English road than your rugged rocky countryside, though.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Wonder if it's something on the Granite from source, maybe not washed or coated in something?

It will be a combination of the granite source, water source and PVA.

Feldspar is one of the minerals in granite and this can be a buff, grey, pink or green in colour and dissolve in water which generally has a ph value of between 6.5 and 8.5 (7 being neutral) - ergo the more acidic or alkali the water the greater the dissolving.

Therefore if washing up liquid (ph 8 to 9) is used as a wetting agent (i.e. to break the water surface tension) this will increase the alkalinity. Further compounded if the water source is from limestone or chalk rich aquifer as these are naturally alkali with a ph value of 7.4 to 8.7. The ph value of water is affected by the underlying geology.

PVA generally has a ph value of 5 to 6.5 (acidic) which will in theory will be neutralised by an alkaline water source and wetting agent, however given the greater alkalinity of washing up liquids and hand washes commonly used as wetting agents, this effectively turns the PVA/water mix from acidic to alkaline.

In summary the ideal combination for granite ballast would be either a latex glue ( @simond ) or use water extracted from a dehumidifier (ph 7) with PVA (ph 6) and a drop mild washing up liquid (ph8) as a wetting agent.

Here endeth the basic geochemistry lesson :).
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
It will be a combination of the granite source, water source and PVA.

Feldspar is one of the minerals in granite and this can be a buff, grey, pink or green in colour and dissolve in water which generally has a ph value of between 6.5 and 8.5 (7 being neutral) - ergo the more acidic or alkali the water the greater the dissolving.

Therefore if washing up liquid (ph 8 to 9) is used as a wetting agent (i.e. to break the water surface tension) this will increase the alkalinity. Further compounded if the water source is from limestone or chalk rich aquifer as these are naturally alkali with a ph value of 7.4 to 8.7. The ph value of water is affected by the underlying geology.

PVA generally has a ph value of 5 to 6.5 (acidic) which will in theory will be neutralised by an alkaline water source and wetting agent, however given the greater alkalinity of washing up liquids and hand washes commonly used as wetting agents, this effectively turns the PVA/water mix from acidic to alkaline.

In summary the ideal combination for granite ballast would be either a latex glue ( @simond ) or use water extracted from a dehumidifier (ph 7) with PVA (ph 6) and a drop mild washing up liquid (ph8) as a wetting agent.

Here endeth the basic geochemistry lesson :).
It's dialogue like this that reminds me how little I actually know :)) and a reminder I should have worked harder at school :cool:

Dehumidifer water it shall be :thumbs:
 

simond

Western Thunderer
A better question than the one I thought of.... :rolleyes: :oops: :D

(new or used? ... :shit: ..... I know, I'll just leave now....)
You didn’t have to say, we just knew.

anyway, bogroll is useful stuff but lousy for scenery. I’d recommend those blue/green industrial hand towels. Bit thicker, better wet strength, and you need fewer layers. But newspaper is effectively free, though as we don’t take one i have to beg from the neighbours.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
anyway, bogroll is useful stuff but lousy for scenery.
Not if you want to get in all the crevices of rocky outcrops......

I mean, I don't actually know....... as I've not done it yet, but apparently that's the word on the street so I'll give it a go.

Newspaper is too thick I think, great for fields and grassy banks or balloon pigs (primary school) but not so for rocky areas.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Back, just briefly to the US Pacific North West HO layout, I keep intending to get out there but constantly thwarted by more pressing tings that need doing, I took early retirement at 55 and have, quite honestly, never been so busy :eek:

I've been eyeing up Autoracks for the layout, they're massive, in model form and real life, not heavy, just massive physically and close to 90' long; most manufacturers quote minimum radius as 24" which even for US HO can be a little tight. Good Autoracks will set you back a pretty penny (relative) so you really don't want to be buying stuff that doesn't fit or look right or fit and we're all guilty of that right ;)

I'm also conscious of the machine gun purchases in O I did and ending up selling a lot (all eventually) that didn't suit my changing needs. To that end when a couple of these came up cheap on Ebay (£25) I decided to take a punt for two reasons, fidelity and visuals on the projected layout. They're from the shallower end of the detail pool (Walters Proto) but then the price reflects that too.

The first acid test was does it look right on my 24" curves, sadly it does not, realistically 36" is about the lowest you'd want to go with these; up until now I've limited myself to stock in the 60-65' region and that has bode well for visuals.

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It's sad because they are impressive beasts, even with the low end fidelity and despite the chunky detail roll exceptionally well but they are tight as a camels....you know the rest in the curves. A train of 15 is going to need so much HP to get it around they'll be an operational nightmare, even with DPU.

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The other visual aspect concerns the overall train rather than the individual cars in curves, my sidings are in the region of 15-17' long, with these puppies you'll only get 13-15 in one train, plus a loco front and rear, it's a long train but visually doesn't look long. On the other hand my Bethgons, covered hoppers and tank cars will get 22-25 cars in the same length so they will 'look' the longer train.

The last experiment was the fidelity, I reasoned that the solid grabs could be cut free and wire replace them or the whole end ladder area be replaced with a fold up etch and wire grabs. To be blunt the solid grabs are a bit clumsy, a pin wash would certainly help and add shadow to the back and create a visual trick to the eye to give some depth.

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That train of thought then led to the conclusion, do I really need to? What's the best (if I were to make up a rake) ratio of cost/benefit/satisfaction that could be achieved, not just Autoracks but all stock. Yes up close the grabs are clumsy, but then I stepped back to normal viewing distances and to be honest you really can't tell.

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In short, if you're viewing distance is a reasonable distance then a lot of the fidelity is lost and a waste of money and you might as well stick with cheaper stock. I'll keep these two if for nothing else than paint and weathering pigs, they might get the odd run in a manifest and I'll just have to squint of look away when they go around the curves.

Hopefully tomorrow my Bethgon set will arrive, I'll need to get a bit more road bed and track down to lay them all out in the planned consist, just the excuse I need to do something out here........
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Despite the apparent concern over the tight curves, if the autoracks look the part snaking through the sceery and you enjoy the view I wouldn't worry. Once you have more scenery in place the consist will disappear into the landscape.

If you wanted to replicate some of your photos the you would just need a few more detailed cars behind the loco. In the past I have read in the Model Railroader magazine a number of modellers have a few detailed cars behind the loco purely for the close in threequarter shot with the remainder of the cars in the consist being standard 'off the shelf' stuff.

The other solution is to bring the tunnel mouth forward towards the other one or have a snow shed or rockfall galllery over the tighter curve to disguise it a bit. I presume they still do have snow sheds.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Despite the apparent concern over the tight curves, if the autoracks look the part snaking through the sceery and you enjoy the view I wouldn't worry. Once you have more scenery in place the consist will disappear into the landscape.

If you wanted to replicate some of your photos the you would just need a few more detailed cars behind the loco. In the past I have read in the Model Railroader magazine a number of modellers have a few detailed cars behind the loco purely for the close in threequarter shot with the remainder of the cars in the consist being standard 'off the shelf' stuff.

The other solution is to bring the tunnel mouth forward towards the other one or have a snow shed or rockfall galllery over the tighter curve to disguise it a bit. I presume they still do have snow sheds.
Dave, problem is, about 40% of the layout is a curve (each end, so at least four times) so there's quite a lot of them and yes I think you're right, more scenery will reduce the massive overhang aspect somewhat. There is another option in the tandem/twin 'Auto-Max', they're longer overall but each car is shorter at 70'; two cars rest on three trucks. They're not as common but you can see a good handful in a manifest or mixed in with full Autorack consists sometimes but I've yet to see a whole train of them.

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I may well go with a train of these, you get more to a siding and they shouldn't look so daft on my 24" curves.

Good call on the good stock up front, will put that away for later :thumbs: Having said that, I did get caught out with some double stack cars that were just so bad they'll be spray booth fodder or serious detail upgrading, oddly enough a similar set by the same company were really good, I expect the later was old tooling but working out how you tell that is quite hard as I recall the box art was close or similar.

Snowsheds, yes, I'm sure some (mostly concrete now) are still extant up on Marias Pass and there's certainly still plenty on the CP/CN Thompson River route, I do plan to have one or two but they'll be on the next level up as the line climbs toward the summit tunnel.

Right now I'm pushing HO in this space for what I want and I'm still not 100% sure it'll tick all the boxes, there is a chance I'll swap out the track and drop to N but keep the road bed and formation and adjust the scenery to suit. Hence not buying loads and loads of stock, mind looking at the pile of boxes I may well have failed to tell that to the side of the brain which clicks the 'buy' now button :))
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Back to the Autoracks and curves, the current idea was 24" curves with either a short straight section between the two or a much larger radius (72" etc) linking them, that maximizes the length of straight on the long runs down the side.

It is also possible to have one continuous 36" radius at each end, a bit of a pain where it crosses the door and makes the removable sections a bit deeper than desired.

As a quick visual I mocked up 24" and 36" radius curves for 89' Autoracks, I can live with 36" (just) to be honest, I also checked the existing first curve and found it to be 20", which is why they were tight so that needs easing what ever happens.

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Increasing the end curves to 36" does mean you loose 48" of straight track, not so happy with that but that might be a forced compromise I'll have to live with. Having said that, 36" will be better for the CP SD70ACu or SD90MACs if I get any, they're no shorty!
 
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