Mickoo's American Modelling Empire

[Jordan]

Sorry to disappoint but there will be one or two setrack switches, these PECO Code 83 switches are pretty good and to be blunt, I'd rather be playing than building switches, plus track never was a popular anorak in my closet

Ah, what I meant by 'Setrack switches' are Hornby/Peco/etc 18" radius points/switches!!
I wouldn't count Peco Code 83 as Setrack!!!

 

[mickoo]

Clearance tests with the tunnel portal, I've had to 'trim' it down to make it suit the location better, according to the BNSF clearance diagrams it should be at least 2' wider, but the one on Columbia Gorge look tighter to be honest.

The test load, (XPS foam) represents a Hi cube over standard box (standard is now deemed as 8'-6" as they out number 8'-0" by a big margin) as I though that was the Fallbridge limit, but looking at more vacation photos (still processing them) domestic stackers are two Hi cubes so I need to jack the test load up by 3.5 mm. Luckily the portal is over long so it can be jacked up as well, plus the depth of the road bed (1 mm EVA foam).





Cutting XPS foam, I purchased one of those hot wire cutters, excellent slices through XPS like a hot knife through butter, too well actually as cutting a straight line is impossible; especially when your trying to accurate gradient blocks under the road bed.

The double stack test load needed to be reasonably container shaped so some form of straight line edge was needed, enter some scraps of wood, make sure they're the same height, grip the XPS between them and then just slide the hot wire cutter along the top, simples.



Don't use the hot wire cutter on the insulation board, two reasons, it's inter woven with glass stands, but by the time you work that out you've probably passed out from the fumes, not good medicine

 

[simond]

Many years ago, a university pal made a record-attempt human-powered tricycle. The fuselage was constructed of foam “planks” which he cut from an 8’ x 4’ x 4” block in our student house living room.

With some difficulty, and a hot wire cutter fashioned from a wooden coat hanger and some piano wire, he cut one plank, about an inch thick from one long edge, to which he glued two strips of ally, so that there was a half inch (maybe he was metric, might have been 10mm, it was 1981) overlap to the straight side of his plank. Once that had set, it was a trivially simple operation to use the guide and cutter to slice planks from the other good straight edge, though it required several pairs of hands.

I recall parts of the steering of his vehicle were salvaged from some “aircraft junk” at the back of the college. He mentioned ”TSR2” though it might have been bluff! I don’t recall how he got on at the competition, sadly.

 

[mickoo]

A little more progress today, not sure foam insulation board is the right choice but I'm committed (for this section at least) and it was all free. Hopefully once it's sealed in and a coat of PVA over the top it'll look a little better. I may need to add some 'stuff' to make parts of the rock less 'rounded' so to speak, but we'll see, they are after all, over 14 million years old and I'd call that reasonably weathered.

Anyway, it'll do as a placeholder and I'll go back with fresh eyes later in the week.





I'm hoping I can find a camera small enough to at least be able to drive or film a drivers eye view once it's finished. You'll have to excuse the hump in the grade, it'll get smoothed shortly.



One thing I want to try and do is keep the majority of the scenery like the real thing, especially slopes with their varying materials and how they settle. BNSF have a handy page in their ROW manual which lists it as 1:1.5 (also confirmed by someone who worked for BR in the same field incidentally).



Some areas are clearly steeper and in some places I'm amazed the whole slab of soil doesn't just slide off onto the railway and into the river, clearly there is rock below and clearly the vegetation is bonding with that and entrapping the soil.

To that end I found a little widget on the mobile and it gives slope angles and all sort of useful/useless information, my ballast based embankments are pretty much good to go (1:1.5 is 33.7°) and my main line grade is around 2%, I will have to go higher in places (possibly over steep at 3.5% or sneaky 5-6% in hidden areas) to gain the height I need but the varying grades will look interesting with long trains strung out on them. I did a test with a full lenght train and one engine will cope with 6% and two with 8% but 8% looks silly to be honest.

 

[Big Train James]

If I'm interpreting your photos correctly, the app is putting your mainline grade a lot closer to 1% than to 2%. If so, you have some extra wiggle room.

Here's a couple of cool photos I have stashed away for future reference, that mimic your conditions. From the net a long time ago so I'm not sure on attribution for the second photo.




Jim

 

[mickoo]

If I'm interpreting your photos correctly, the app is putting your mainline grade a lot closer to 1% than to 2%. If so, you have some extra wiggle room.

Here's a couple of cool photos I have stashed away for future reference, that mimic your conditions. From the net a long time ago so I'm not sure on attribution for the second photo.

View attachment 210289
View attachment 210290

Jim

It's 1.2° and 2.1%, in hindsight I should have just screen shot the phone

Ideally this curve should be level with the water but it needs to dive down under the shelf on the other side of the shed so the grade will steepen behind tunnel #1 in the non scenic section which crosses the main access door.

Nice pictures and yes it's basically what I'm looking for, the first shot has a steeper slope as large rock/boulders interlock better and slide less easily, as opposed to loose ballast/shale etc. I do need some larger boulders, not quite sure yet how to make/procure them, more YouTube rabbit holes I'm sure.

The second also looks steep and is possibly grass covered rock, I'm impressed with the cut behind which looks like sand and is much steeper with reasonably large tress rooted in it.

Just west of Arlington the erosion boulders are rather larger and the impressive sheer rock face behind has an enormous slide fence, i am tempted with something like that on the landside of the entrance to tunnel #2 but it might be too much rock so I may replace it with a concrete retaining wall and top cover fence only.



Further west on the BNSF side the erosion rocks are much smaller and the slope behind is mostly grass, I'd like more trees to be honest.



Both have small shrubs and bushes growing in the rock here and there to brighten things up.

Back at Maryhill the terrain is more barren, but it's the rock outcrop on the right with it's sheer drop into the river that catches my eye.



At my little nook near tunnel #5 I'm getting close to what I want, steep slope with nice vegetation and slide fences.





I'd prefer my grass not to be so yellow but they were going through a bit of a heat wave back then.

 

[mickoo]

One of the other experiments today was to try a less ornate tunnel mouth from XPS foam, couple of lessons, it's quite hard to cut straight and neat with my blocks of wood and string jigs (a Proxxon hot wire station is on order) and it's equally hard to distress in 4mm but it does give a more suitable surface finish than the 3D ones.

One feature on Stevens pass (Cascades) is that the tunnels are numbered by carvings in their face (actually tunnel 1.5 is also carved on the Columbia river Fallbridge sub) a trait more common on GN lines than the SP&S in the gorge.

The solution was to 3D print a die which imprints the carving into the face of the XPS foam, this being the second as the first was.....yes you guessed it....not mirrored



Once the foam is indented, be it cracks, holes, roughened or marked it stays like that and it's quite easy to over do it. I've not tried to replicate the shutter boards physically, I'll try and do that with paints and washes.

When the hot wire station arrives I'll be able to make it all much neater and possibly add the columns and details like the SP&S but we'll see, I like the carved name in the face so might mix and match a bit. This'll become a paint pig and once the PVA arrives I can get a sealant coat on and apply some paint and washes.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Here's a couple of cool photos I have stashed away for future reference, that mimic your conditions. From the net a long time ago so I'm not sure on attribution for the second photo.

Methinks the the BC rail picture should look like this - it appears to have been flipped horizontally.

 

[mickoo]

Little progress on the 'Trainset' but provisions have been arriving, some paint and some aggregate, it looks a lot but I suspect it'll soon all go once the brush starts splashing it around.



One of the unknowns was ballast, it's generally accepted that you use the scale below the one you're modelling, not quite sure how that works as any self respecting supplier that sells HO is going to sell HO....by simply rebagging N, or did I miss something

Anyway I picked a couple of grades up and as you'd expect the terminology is not even across brands, fine is not always fine. The Chinchilla sand is for fine dust gravel areas and to generally break up smooth flat areas, the other bags are from WWS, which is more a gaming supplier so I grabbed bags of fine and super fine. I also grabbed some bags and shakers of Woodland scenics, which is much more expensive; not a problem if it does the job.

One thing I did notice with Woodlands is that it's hugely cheaper to buy in bulk, the big shakers are good value for money (comparatively) but not as good as WWS.

I did a quick test of the two most likely looking bags, the rest is easily used up on general scenery, one of the pluses of modeling a railroad in a rocky scenario, plenty of scope for all grades of rock from fist to small house size (1:1).

First up the recommended next scale down Woodland Scenics fine. It looks okay but to me perhaps a bit small, it's also boringly, uniformly bland.



Second in the ring is WWS super fine, clearly more granular but oddly (for me) more appealing even if it's a touch over scale. I also prefer the colour blends straight out of the bag.



I suspect the ideal scale is something between the two or perhaps mixing them.

Woodlands also do a medium size blended grey which looks nice, I've grabbed a shaker of that and then can compare all three. Looking at photos it looks to be close to the same grade as WWS Fine so we'll see.

Comparing with 1:1 from the Pacific Northwest it lookks like BNSF use quite a heavy grade for main lines and a smaller grade for sidings, makes perfect sense. A perfect comparison is at Connell the siding is smaller grade than the main behind and the big pile is the coarse stuff too.



Close ups of main line ballast, it's actually surprisingly coarse.









The last is interesting as it shows the fringes are often a smaller grade.

An interesting mix here, not sure what's surrounding the signal base but it looks too regular to be ballast, either side is a smaller grade than the main track.



Finally, perfect use for Chinchilla sand, a lot of the right of way access roads are like this. Note all the modern paraphernalia associated with today's railroads.



Conclusion, I'm hedging toward WWS super fine for the main line, the colour is pretty much perfect too, sadly WWS do not appear to do super fine in any other colours like light grey or buff.

 

[simond]

Not qualified to comment but “super fine” looks better to me.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Conclusion, I'm hedging toward WWS super fine for the main line, the colour is pretty much perfect too, sadly WWS do not appear to do super fine in any other colours like light grey or buff.

I would mix the WWS super fine and Woodland scenics in a 75-80/25-20% ratio. This would break up the colour and the sizes and you can make up tester mixes using a tablespoon as a measure to see what they look like. Ballast is not a uniform size throughout.

Even better would be if WWS produced the light grey limestone and light grey in super fine - again I would expriment with some mixes around the ratios above. I would use these as a mix and apply a pale brown wash to the track afterwards.

The WWS superfine in your photo, to me, is the wrong colour - too much like a blue/greenish slate (unless it's the lighting).

 

[simond]

Granny/eggs perchance, but do be aware that PVA can make granite go a rather annoying green shade. Latex does not do that.

 

[Overseer]

The WWS Super Fine looks good from here. I don't think it needs mixing with a finer grade. If it is real stone it might be hard to mix with Woodland Scenics crushed nut shells as the WS will float while the stone won't when dilute pva is applied.

 

[mickoo]

I would mix the WWS super fine and Woodland scenics in a 75-80/25-20% ratio. This would break up the colour and the sizes and you can make up tester mixes using a tablespoon as a measure to see what they look like. Ballast is not a uniform size throughout.

Even better would be if WWS produced the light grey limestone and light grey in super fine - again I would expriment with some mixes around the ratios above. I would use these as a mix and apply a pale brown wash to the track afterwards.

The WWS superfine in your photo, to me, is the wrong colour - too much like a blue/greenish slate (unless it's the lighting).

Could be the lighting Dave as it’s under a cold (K) LED light, it might be better under a warmer tungsten light. Some areas I noted in the US use a pink granite like we do in the UK but most seemed to be a darker grey.

Like the possibilities of mixing and might try that, plenty here to experiment with. Track washes later are a must but I might also try a base of WWS super fine and then a dusting of WS lightly scattered and brushed in of WS fine.

That way it’ll remove the risk of fliating that Overseer notes. I’m not actually sure what the Woodlands scenic stuff is, feels a bit odd for rock.

I’ll contact WWS tomorrow and see if they do super fine in other colours but it’s not immediately obvious they do on web sites I’ve seen.

 

[mickoo]

Granny/eggs perchance, but do be aware that PVA can make granite go a rather annoying green shade. Latex does not do that.

Handy to know

It’s a good many decades since I did scenery work and things have moved on I suspect.

 

[mickoo]

The WWS Super Fine looks good from here. I don't think it needs mixing with a finer grade. If it is real stone it might be hard to mix with Woodland Scenics crushed nut shells as the WS will float while the stone won't when dilute pva is applied.

Cheers, you and others are backing my hunch that WWS looks more appropriate, it is crushed stone so might not mix well with WS; is it really crushed nut shells? That might make sense as it doesn’t feel like real rock but I’ve no idea what it actually is.

 

[Big Train James]

It's crushed walnuts shells.

If I recall correctly, the Great Northern is known for the pink color of their ballast, at least in certain areas. They had at least one company owned quarry on line.

I've heard stories from another local modeler who is focused on GN from Havre to Whitefish and I think he uses the pink stone. I can ask him again on Tuesday night if you like.

You may be able to source the correct ballast from here as there are companies doing that sort of thing. But of course its here and you are there. It could be (even more) expensive to ship over.

Unrelated, I'm just back from the Chicago O scale show. Several times over the last two days I thought "hmmm maybe Mick would have interest in that, oh never mind."

 

[David Waite]

The Sixth photo down on post 499 shows a point with 5 angled patterns to the sleepers is something I’ve never seen before , it’s is also a great picture of a JUMP FROG “ flange bearing frog” I don’t think we have them in Australia yet but give them time, I believe BNSF use them but only use them on sidings that don’t see continuous traffic and can only be used with Vehicles that have wheel / flanges that are capable of crossing jump frog points.
David.

 

[mickoo]

It's crushed walnuts shells.

If I recall correctly, the Great Northern is known for the pink color of their ballast, at least in certain areas. They had at least one company owned quarry on line.

I've heard stories from another local modeler who is focused on GN from Havre to Whitefish and I think he uses the pink stone. I can ask him again on Tuesday night if you like.

You may be able to source the correct ballast from here as there are companies doing that sort of thing. But of course its here and you are there. It could be (even more) expensive to ship over.

Unrelated, I'm just back from the Chicago O scale show. Several times over the last two days I thought "hmmm maybe Mick would have interest in that, oh never mind."

Interesting regarding the colour as I found the opposite, whilst I didn't examine all their track, the few snap shots I did see were mostly uniform grey. These have a slight mix with something lighter and more brown in colour, but only a trace.







In the gorge it was almost entirely uniform grey on BNSF.







On the UP side of the gorge it's a mix with a higher percentage of lighter grey and mixed browns.



Moving up to Spokane area there is a hint of pink in the mix, the second shot being MRL just outside Thompson Falls.





Yet the new track at Sandpoint is clearly fresh uniform grey.



The only places I saw pink was Helena depot and Cajon pass.





Going back to Daves comment on washes, I was surprised at how clean the ROW is in the gorge and generally on most of the trackage I saw. i'm going to guess this is due to the extensive use of dynamic brakes which reduce the use of tread brakes significantly and might explain why the flatter areas are still relatively clean. The area around Cooks in the gorge is much dirtier but then there is a long passing siding here where they hold slower (grain and oil) trains all the time.

I know this years vacation is going to have a complete different and new list of items to photograph

O scale show, yes, sadly an interest that is diminishing for many reasons.

I very nearly did organize a plane on Wednesday night, but it was all a bit rushed, flights and UK transport I'd all worked out, hotel and US transport I'd have dealt with on arrival. If it had been a couple of days sooner it might have worked, but the trip would have been for all the wrong reasons....which basically means the right reasons.

The show interests me very little (it looks like a big swap meet from the photos I've seen.....and yes I feel exactly the same way about UK shows I attend with Finney7....they bore me rigid) as do the local trains (no offence intended) but the traveling and social side appealed greatly (as it does for the UK shows).

When you sit back, it's a lot of money to spend on what is basically a big beer jolly (for me), but the life experiences I think would have been worth it, sometimes it's (not just about) more than toy trains.

 

[Jordan]

also a great picture of a JUMP FROG “ flange bearing frog” I don’t think we have them in Australia yet but give them time, I believe BNSF use them but only use them on sidings that don’t see continuous traffic

Certainly a frog variant I was not aware of before, yes it has certain hallmarks of a Self-guarding frog, but differences too, and there does appear to be a check rail in place but only for one route through the switch.