Mickoo's BR modelling

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi chaps,

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see where you're having an issue..

JB, the issue is that I'm doing it LOL, I followed what you did except left it for a few hours before wiping off. I'm begining to wonder if the discolouration is not rust but the blacking agent.
Mick,
I suspect the greatest part of the problems you've been having are due to your choice of Baker's flux. With adequate washing it's fine, but I wonder if your wheels are contaminated, I which case they'll keep coming back rusty.
Steph

Steph, you may be right, but after being scrubbed with a fibre pen (three times now) and cleaned with white spirits and water etc they are still doing it. Having said that, the ones I did last night by just leaving the agent on for a few minutes and then washing have come out much darker than previous examples, they've all had a wipe with oil now so let's see how they fair;)

In future as soon as they have been turned they're going to be blackend and the axles will be done as soon as the packet is opened and suitably cleaned, sometimes they come from Slaters with a fine rust on already.
Mikoo,
I find that I get good results by using an acid dip, then a clear water wash. Dip in a neutralising solution and another clean water wash. With Birchwood Casey I use the agent neat on a cotton bud. Leave it to dry and then wash off in water. Then, like Colin, I use an oily cotton bud. The blackening is porous and seems to absorb the oil film.

A wheelset and crank axle that I made months ago has been kicking around on the work bench without a trace of rusting.

Paul, thanks, I might try washing in Viakal as I think that's slightly acidic, it certainly cleans up the other metal work just fine, I've three more wheels to black tonight so will try those three using Viakal first, then a quick rinse in water followed by the neat agent and then a quick wash and seal with oil.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Guys and Gals,

This subject has gone round in circles so many times on the 7mm Yahoo group and with no clear answer. Training leads me to think that the problem lies in the manner in which the flux works on the core metal. My method for blackening steel wheels and steel rail is:-

1/ mechanical cleaning with fibre-glass brush and 240 grit emery;
2/ degreasing with synthetic cellulose thinners;
3/ chemical cleaning with C&L acid-dip / surface conditioner;
4/ clean rinse and dry;
5/ apply Birchwood Casey for steel with a cotton bud using a rubbing action;
6/ clean rinse and scrub with a toothbrush / nail brush to remove surface residue;
7/ dry with cloth / tissue.

If I have not used an acid flux then the result is fine and no rusting occurs within several months. If I have used an acid flux - which includes Safety Flux - then rusting can occur within weeks and limited to the area where the flux was applied. Of interest is that using cored electrical solder does not promote rusting.

Why does rusting occur where the flux was applied even though the flux has been removed by heat / abrasion / washing?

regards, Graham
 

alcazar

Guest
Because the flux removes the thin coating of black from the blackening agent, allowing damp air to get at bare steel again?

That would be my guess.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Why does rusting occur where the flux was applied even though the flux has been removed by heat / abrasion / washing?
regards, Graham


Because, despite your lengthy 'cleaning regime' you're not actually removing the flux.

If I find I'm soldering near wheel I do the following afterwards:
Aggressive brushing under hot running water with an old toothbrush.
Rub dry the steel parts and then leave on top of the central heating unit.

When blackening the wheel rims are dropped in the ultrasonic with warm water and few drops of IPA.
I then rub IPA over the tyre with a cotton bud.
Leave to dry and then use diluted Birchwood Casey Gun Blue, which I rub on with a cotton bud.
Once the level of blackening is where I want it, I then drop the wheels in clean water.
If I feel like it a blast in the ultrasonic (again with a few drops of IPA) will get rid of any remaining blackening solution
Rub dry the steel parts and then leave on top of the central heating unit.
I then polish the part with bog roll to get rid of any dusting on the surface.
A thin film of oil can then be rubbed on the wheel

That's it.

The problem both you and Mick are having is that you're using solvents for cleaning which are imiscible with the flux; so you're not actually shifting the flux contamination.

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph,

I did not write anything about how I treat a soldered joint... most of the time I use Safety Flux and neutralise any residues with a weak solution of caustic soda followed by brush and warm water. Unless I am missing the point, the flux is miscible with the cleaning agents for flux removal.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I did not write anything about how I treat a soldered joint...
Neither did I... ;)

The problem I think is that your steps 1/ and 2/ will just end up smearing whatever contamination you have on the wheel or rail. A fibreglass brush won't neutralise or remove any water-based contamination (e.g. flux splashes) and cellulose thinners is imiscible with water; so the flux stays put. I'm not sure what's in Acidip, but hazard a guess it's dilute phosphoric or citric acid as either can be used commercially for metal cleaning.

I suspect the reason you don't get any problems with cored solder is that these tend to be caustic, rather than acidic.

I can understand how you'd find my cleaning regime difficult on steel rail - for a start you'd need a very long, thin ultrasonic bath! So I might suggest using neat IPA as a washing solution before using the fibreglass brush; it mixes well with water-based solutions so may help wash out any flux from the surface.

Just a thought.

Steph
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well the oily cotton bud seems to be the trick as well as the time in the water, best results so far are a good dosing of agent and then let stand for 60-90 seconds, then a dunk in water for anything between 15-30mins and a wipe dry and light polish with tissue paper followed by a good smear with an oily cotton bud.

These were done a week ago :thumbs:
IMG_8401a.JPG

The tread is a bit black but can be cut back with a very soft comm stick to get the right shine required.

Cheers y'all for your help and advice :thumbs:
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I always assume running will let the tread shine up naturally. Of course, there's nothing to stop us making it look better before running commences. :)
 

alcazar

Guest
Now those are what I hoped mine would look like.:(

I get steel buffer heads to look like that by heating to red heat and dowsing in oil...any oil will do, I use engine oil.

I wonder if Slaters could do their rims/axles? certainly the axles would work, I might try one and see if it still conducts, fits the wheels etc.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well the A1 tender is about as far as I can go before paint, maybe the rear hoses and brackets but as those will be attached to the inner chassis I'm not overly concerned about fitting them right now, the same applies to the drawbar between loco and tender. I've (currently) opted for a loco without electric lights so that limits me to a handful of locos, fortunately (so far) they cover all three ER districts so I'm not boxed into a corner with layout choices...just yet.
IMG_4971a.JPG

I also took along the Class 26, it does look good I have to admit, too clean mind and needs some corrective work to get it to where I want it to represent how I saw them in 80-81, but looking forward to that episode in due course.
IMG_4947a.JPG

IMG_4951a.JPG

Nothing special, just re-gauged OOTB at the moment, just that Love Lane makes a nice place to take some 'before' shots.

So now the work bench gets traded for the layout bench, it's time to firm up, finalise and begin a layout, as usual I'm firmly in the camp of making the space fit my ideas, rather than having ideas fit the space ;) Less is more is a hard strategy to practice.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Ok, in true WT fashion and whilst having several projects already on the go and should really be designing and building a layout I started another kettle!

It came in a white box from Telford and proclaimed to be a Chowbent crab, I've heard they are pretty good and as it was etches only for £60 I whipped it off their hands after a quick look in the box. The previous owner had written ever so neatly on the label 'complete'....little fibber;)

So at the start of the week I tipped the box up and had a rummage, first problem, no instructions.....well we never read them anyway, but they'd of been handy for some of the more fiddly bits. The GA and Wild Swan book have helped so far:thumbs: , further inspection reveals that the tender is actually a JLTRT kit, bargin, except it's not all there. There seems to be one etch sheet missing, that which holds most of the front end plate work and forward bunker plate work, so out with the fret saw and scrap brass to whip something that resembles that area shortly.

Progress so far is all the plate work that does exist and some details + a running chassis, which true to form uses CSB in my usual tube method and a small refinement of adding handrail knobs to the axle boxes, basically to extend the reach of that pivot point and hide the CSB wire from view.

Now the important part....pictures, it's dark now, it's been a long day but they'll suffice for the moment.

Side view, nowt much to see, just OOTB platework soldered up to form the major parts
IMG_8402.jpg

Nice little ding in the upper sheetwork by the rear coal rails, no idea how that got there, ticked off that it has....even though photos of the really thing are quite battered it's still annoying that it's there by accident and not design. Still have to add steps and other sundry details as and where required, but no castings.

Overhead view
IMG_8403.jpg

Only thing of note here is the whopping great hole at the front coal space, no parts for that in the box.

Rear view
IMG_8404.jpg

Little bit of an issue here, the water tank area has an inner structure to which the outer sheets are attached, you can just see it in the previous image as the waffle type structure, well when formed it's too wide and too long which leaves big gaps between the sides and end, solution, remove the rear wall and move forward so the the rear sheet fits between the side sheets, this of course now leaves three big slots in the footplate to fill!

Front view
IMG_8405.jpg

Not a lot here, that's all the sheet work you get up front, there are coal rails lifting lug flanges and other niff naff to fix to this solo piece of metal work, but jack all else as far as I can find.

Underside
IMG_8407.jpg

Standard view showing my now usually CSB and insulated hornblocks, this one will have split axles and all pick up will be from the tender, if it's good enough for a 0-6-0 tank engine then it's good enough for virtually everything else. No spreadsheets or math here, just used my eye to guess the tube spacing and then pressed on finished model with finger to see if ok, it was.

Basically your looking for the spacing on the inner axle to be wider that the outers and thus less pressure, so long as they are spaced equally side to side you wont get any sort of lean and it's best to make each end the same spacing, I.E. +-20mm from centre or what ever. At a rough guestimate with the planned weight (600g) added it's going to sit 1mm too low, so I may have to slide the end pivots in to give it more pressure and maybe add two more intermediate ones so that it's +-15mm for the ends and +-20mm for the intermediate, either way it'll be what ever feels right and works on Love Lane next weekend:thumbs: You can and perhaps should use the spreadsheets, but so far I've found common sense works just as well, you soon get a feel for what'll work and what won't.

Close up of CSB axlebox
IMG_8408.jpg

Just added a handrail knob to the axle box so that the CSB wire is high enough to clear the openings in the side of the tender frames, 1mm hole, a bit of CA, job done.

In other news, the A1 tender inner chassis was painted today in etch primer, pretty good stuff and leaves a nice finish if slightly abrasive such that it marks easily with dirty fingers, I think a coat of Klear will help that, weather pending the body will be done tomorrow and then left to dry completely before the top coat of kettle green is added, hopefully ready for next weekend at Sudbury.

Y'all have fun now.
 

dibateg

Western Thunderer
I like the way instead of, 'how am I going to replace a missing etch?', you go 'oh, I'll just make the missing bits!'
Nice one!
Some of the tender etch looks to be the same as in the JLTRT 4F..
Are those Slaters hornblocks?
Regards
Tony
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I like the way instead of, 'how am I going to replace a missing etch?', you go 'oh, I'll just make the missing bits!'
Nice one!
Some of the tender etch looks to be the same as in the JLTRT 4F..
Are those Slaters hornblocks?
Regards
Tony

Well ones does what one can ;)

Yes I reckon it's identical to the 4F, or as near as, JLTRT offer three Fowler 3500g tenders, plain, riveted, part riveted and with or with out coal rails etc, or what ever combinations they have:thumbs: So, if you have a set of instructions I'd love to have a look;)

I've looked in detail at the coal rails and I don't think the side pieces are going to fit, they bend out ok but the end fences seem too narrow by about 1mm each side at a rough guess, I'll offer one up today and if theres to big a gap to mess with I'll remove what's already there. Which is ok as many Crabs ran with out coal rails even into the 60's and onto scrapping, and! I just found a Lentz one with out rails in 62;) as well as several Scottish ones to boot.

Yes they're Slaters hornblocks, bleeding great things and I just did an eye level rear end view and they show terribly, I'm seriously tempted to reduce the thickness of the rear axle ones to 1/3 width in an attempt to reduce the eye sore, and then trim a little off the bottom as well. I may try and cobble up some sort of visual eye break or distraction as they really do look awful (photo later).

Best Mick
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick,
Thinning the hornblocks is not a problem, and probably worth the effort. It is just worth considering how visible they'll be on the completed model; you've still got brakegear, plumbing and a coat of black paint to go in there, all of which will help disguise them.
Steph
 
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