Re: Rolling Stock for Banavie Road
- Thread starter JimG
- Start date
JimG
Western Thunderer
And more work done, although other things at home have got a bit in the way and I'm not as far forward as I would have liked. 
The next job was to convert the standard SSMRS pin-point axles on my wagon wheels to parallel journals to work with the "W" irons. It turned out to be a bit of a drag of a job since I knew I would need at least ten sets of wheels and axles for the wagons I was intending to build - i.e. six of the vans and four of the RCH wagons - that I reckoned it better to do the twenty axles required at one setting while I had the lathe set up to cut a nice running fit in the "W" iron bearings. So it was a bit of a churn for a while.
The next action was to fit the "W" irons to the underframe and I decided to make up a jig to set the axles properly at the scale nine foot wheelbase. The tops of the slots in the "W" irons are 2mm diameter semi-circles so I milled up an 80 thou Plastikard holder with 1mm deep slots for some 2mm stainless steel rod I have to hand. I opted to make an outside frame so that I could access the underframe with a soldering iron, and also to see exactly what was going on. The centre part cut out of the sheet was split in half and used to hold the rods in the milled slots.
...and now the jig in action with the "W" iron assemblies in place, and soldered in.
...and the (so far) finished assembly.
At this point I weighed the superstructure and the underframe to see what the weight was. For 0.008" wire I need about 55g of weight to get the springing working properly - i.e. with the bearings sitting halfway up the 1mm travel. The weight of the parts was just over 30g and I knew that I would have to use the thinner 0.007" wire, but even that needed about 40g to work properly.
So out came the lead sheet from my store in the garage. I asked my son-in-law to get me some scrap bits off building sites for me and he brought me back a piece of a roll which will keep me going for far longer than I will be on this earth.
The bits of lead fit in the troughs of the "W" iron assemblies which keeps them well out of the way of any other bits of the underframe - like brake gear. These weights brought the wagon weight up to just over 40g and the bearings sit just where they should be with the 0.007" wire springs.
The next job was to have some method of fixing the body to the inderframe which would allow me to remove it easily for further soldering, etc. So I've opted to use 10BA countersunk screws with the countersink being deep enough that the screws are recessed. The next job will be to glue the screws in place and cover them with putty to be smoothed off and the plank lines re-instated if necessary.
..and the underside with the 10BA holding nuts on show. On reflection, I think this positioning might just mess up the placing off brake shoes, so I might re-position the screws a bit further inboard.
I have to confess that I am a bit aware of the basic functionality of this underframe when others on this forum are building stock with beautifully detailed underframes. But at the moment I'm more interested in operation of the wagons. But if my conscience pricks me enough, I have been working out how I could build more accurate underframes. I'm hoping to build some tank wagons in the near future so I will have to have something worked out for them.
Jim.
The next job was to convert the standard SSMRS pin-point axles on my wagon wheels to parallel journals to work with the "W" irons. It turned out to be a bit of a drag of a job since I knew I would need at least ten sets of wheels and axles for the wagons I was intending to build - i.e. six of the vans and four of the RCH wagons - that I reckoned it better to do the twenty axles required at one setting while I had the lathe set up to cut a nice running fit in the "W" iron bearings. So it was a bit of a churn for a while.
The next action was to fit the "W" irons to the underframe and I decided to make up a jig to set the axles properly at the scale nine foot wheelbase. The tops of the slots in the "W" irons are 2mm diameter semi-circles so I milled up an 80 thou Plastikard holder with 1mm deep slots for some 2mm stainless steel rod I have to hand. I opted to make an outside frame so that I could access the underframe with a soldering iron, and also to see exactly what was going on.
The centre part cut out of the sheet was split in half and used to hold the rods in the milled slots....and now the jig in action with the "W" iron assemblies in place, and soldered in.
...and the (so far) finished assembly.
At this point I weighed the superstructure and the underframe to see what the weight was. For 0.008" wire I need about 55g of weight to get the springing working properly - i.e. with the bearings sitting halfway up the 1mm travel. The weight of the parts was just over 30g and I knew that I would have to use the thinner 0.007" wire, but even that needed about 40g to work properly.
So out came the lead sheet from my store in the garage. I asked my son-in-law to get me some scrap bits off building sites for me and he brought me back a piece of a roll which will keep me going for far longer than I will be on this earth.
The bits of lead fit in the troughs of the "W" iron assemblies which keeps them well out of the way of any other bits of the underframe - like brake gear. These weights brought the wagon weight up to just over 40g and the bearings sit just where they should be with the 0.007" wire springs.
The next job was to have some method of fixing the body to the inderframe which would allow me to remove it easily for further soldering, etc. So I've opted to use 10BA countersunk screws with the countersink being deep enough that the screws are recessed. The next job will be to glue the screws in place and cover them with putty to be smoothed off and the plank lines re-instated if necessary.
..and the underside with the 10BA holding nuts on show. On reflection, I think this positioning might just mess up the placing off brake shoes, so I might re-position the screws a bit further inboard.
I have to confess that I am a bit aware of the basic functionality of this underframe when others on this forum are building stock with beautifully detailed underframes. But at the moment I'm more interested in operation of the wagons. But if my conscience pricks me enough, I have been working out how I could build more accurate underframes.
I'm hoping to build some tank wagons in the near future so I will have to have something worked out for them. Jim.
JimG
Western Thunderer
Still room for an off-centre wheelbase though
I know, but you can see a rule poked in from each end to measure the end distance to get them equal.
I did think about making the jig reference the headstocks to get the wheel base central, but all the nine foot wheelbase wagons I am liable to build have different lengths over their headstocks so I would need a different jig for each. You must remember that this is Scottish rolling stock being built by a Scot and why build umpteen jigs when one jig and a six inch rule will do. Jim.
JimG
Western Thunderer
Inspiring in as much as if you cannae buy it then make your own
Ian,
That's about the state of play in S scale modelling in the UK.
Besides, I've got a whole stack of metal bits and pieces I've built up over the years and I want to try and use up most of it before I shrug off this mortal coil. It's going to take a bit of effort to get the pile down to nothing. Jim.
JimG
Western Thunderer
Following on from Steve Cook's beautiful lettering on his brake van, I've been wondering how to letter my private owner wagons to, hopefully, get somewhere near the standard that Steve has achieved. I have four of these RCH 1907 wagons to letter, all in the same company - Lindsay Crookston & Co. of Glasgow. I would probably have had a go at hand lettering if it had just been one wagon, but doing four with the same lettering would probably show up many problems. I know that Victorian/Edwardian wagon painters' font standards could be a bit variable, but I suspect that my variations would be a fair bit more than theirs. So I've decided to experiment with some white inkjet decal paper to see if I can print on that then apply the decals to the wagons. At least any mistakes I make will be the same in all four wagons.
The first requirement is a good piece of software to do the lettering and I use CorelDraw. I actually purchased one of their older, "Classic" versions a year or two ago, which costs a fraction of the current version but still has more than enough features to do what I want. My version is X4 which may now not be available.
The first job was to draw out the wagon side to act as a guide for the lettering
I did both sides so that I could watch out for any funnies with the different ends for the end door.
This is the prototype from a bit of a blow up from the HMRS site. The colors are white lettering with black shading to the right and below. The wagon body colour is grey.
The first job was to lay the lettering out on the side of the wagon. This was not a quick job when trying to reproduce the style of the original from a not very good image. I think it has taken several accumulated days to get to this stage. The problem is that CorelDraw gives you so many variables to adjust that there is always the temptation to try something else.
I laid it out on the left hand side then copied what I had done to the right hand side to check that it fitted. The one peculiarity is the slightly wider spacing between the "S" and the "T" in "Crookston" to allow for the iron work between them.
I then concentrated on the left side and added the grey background for the lettering. In practice I am going to have to experiment with this shade of grey (maybe fifty variations
) to match the grey of the wagon side. I've sized the grey background to coincide with planking lines in the hope that this might help to disguise any slight variations that might occur
The next job was to copy the lettering and set the copy below and change it to black lettering. I also took the black outline off the white lettering since it was now easily visible on the grey background.
Then the black lettering was moved up to be behind the white lettering, then moved right and down to give the black shading.
The last job to do was to tidy up the ends of the shading and also to adjust the amount of shading on the smaller items like the comma and the full stop.
I'm reasonably happy with the results so far. The "S" and the Ampersand were a fight - they usually are - but the original painter's interpretation made them even more difficult.
I'm just waiting on some Crafty Inkjet Decal paper coming to have a go at sticking something on a wagon side to see if it is successful.
Jim.
So I've decided to experiment with some white inkjet decal paper to see if I can print on that then apply the decals to the wagons. At least any mistakes I make will be the same in all four wagons. The first requirement is a good piece of software to do the lettering and I use CorelDraw. I actually purchased one of their older, "Classic" versions a year or two ago, which costs a fraction of the current version but still has more than enough features to do what I want. My version is X4 which may now not be available.
The first job was to draw out the wagon side to act as a guide for the lettering
I did both sides so that I could watch out for any funnies with the different ends for the end door.
This is the prototype from a bit of a blow up from the HMRS site. The colors are white lettering with black shading to the right and below. The wagon body colour is grey.
The first job was to lay the lettering out on the side of the wagon. This was not a quick job when trying to reproduce the style of the original from a not very good image. I think it has taken several accumulated days to get to this stage. The problem is that CorelDraw gives you so many variables to adjust that there is always the temptation to try something else.
I laid it out on the left hand side then copied what I had done to the right hand side to check that it fitted. The one peculiarity is the slightly wider spacing between the "S" and the "T" in "Crookston" to allow for the iron work between them.
I then concentrated on the left side and added the grey background for the lettering. In practice I am going to have to experiment with this shade of grey (maybe fifty variations
) to match the grey of the wagon side. I've sized the grey background to coincide with planking lines in the hope that this might help to disguise any slight variations that might occurThe next job was to copy the lettering and set the copy below and change it to black lettering. I also took the black outline off the white lettering since it was now easily visible on the grey background.
Then the black lettering was moved up to be behind the white lettering, then moved right and down to give the black shading.
The last job to do was to tidy up the ends of the shading and also to adjust the amount of shading on the smaller items like the comma and the full stop.
I'm reasonably happy with the results so far. The "S" and the Ampersand were a fight - they usually are - but the original painter's interpretation made them even more difficult.
I'm just waiting on some Crafty Inkjet Decal paper coming to have a go at sticking something on a wagon side to see if it is successful.
Jim.
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JimG
Western Thunderer
No, I'm not.
I was only going by the convention used in listing several names, where commas are used as separators until the final "and" or Ampersand. Here's the original HMRS picture in their archive and the punctuation between "LINDSAY" and "CROOKSTON" could be anything. http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=ACP517
Jim.
Wagonman
Western Thunderer
No, I'm not.
http://www.hmrs.org.uk/photograph-collection/photoinfo.php?id=ACP517
Jim.
Grammatically it ought to be a comma but you can always check by referencing an old trade directory such as Kelly's. I would query having the lettering run over the corner plate...
Richard
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
There have been several captions throughout the Tourton Collection series detailing a difference in kerning, between wagon sides, because of the fixed end corner plate. By implication, the signwriter has retained the same lettering arrangement relative to the side knee washer plates and adjusted the letter spacing so that the letters do not encroach on either the cornerplate or the open end diagonal.
JimG
Western Thunderer
The company still exists and is based in Greenock, but its title is now "Lindsay & Crookston"
I'll try a bit more digging around.I've just had a close look at the HMRS picture again and it looks as the the "& Co." lettering stops further short of the far end if you reference it to the diagonal strapping. I can easily squeeze the "& Co." when it's at the end with the corner plate, and I'll more than likely use signwriter's license for squeezing the "LINDSAY," section when it's at the corner plate end. Thanks for pointing that out. As soon as I saw your message, the penny dropped.
It's also possibly got me out of a problem with the decal film. The plank lines should disguise the edges of the decal film on the main body, but I was predicting a problem disguising the edge on the corner plates, even using Solvoset and Solvosol.
Jim.
JimG
Western Thunderer
How's this :-
CorelDraw does make things easy to squeeze the "LINDSAY" on one side and I just reduced the spaces between "Crookston" and and and and and "Co." on the other side. I could squeeze the ampersand a bit to give a bit more breathing space between the "N" and "Co." I've also shortened the grey background so that it stops against the strapping and the corner plate to disguise the edges.
Jim.
CorelDraw does make things easy to squeeze the "LINDSAY" on one side and I just reduced the spaces between "Crookston" and and and and and "Co." on the other side. I could squeeze the ampersand a bit to give a bit more breathing space between the "N" and "Co." I've also shortened the grey background so that it stops against the strapping and the corner plate to disguise the edges.
Jim.
JimG
Western Thunderer
And now a go at the complete sides with the number and the address - such as it is.
I think the numbers are about the right size but I think I have to reduce the "Glasgow" lettering to about 66 - 75% of what it is now. It looks as though it should be about half the height of the company name from the photograph. I designed the "Glasgow" lettering in isolation based on planking lines, and only really saw it with the company name when making up a composite to post here. The photograph also gives the impression that the first "G" in "GLASGOW" is a slightly larger capital than the rest of the word - which I've tried to do.
Jim.
I think the numbers are about the right size but I think I have to reduce the "Glasgow" lettering to about 66 - 75% of what it is now. It looks as though it should be about half the height of the company name from the photograph. I designed the "Glasgow" lettering in isolation based on planking lines, and only really saw it with the company name when making up a composite to post here.
The photograph also gives the impression that the first "G" in "GLASGOW" is a slightly larger capital than the rest of the word - which I've tried to do.Jim.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Hi Jim,
Still mulling around the comma
Whether or not it is a comma or a full stop, I think you have it too high. Running a rule through the picture, it seems to me that the bottom of the white 'square' bit is at the same level as the bottom of the white on the main lettering.
In fact, since the white is pretty distinctive, I reckon you would see a comma's tail on the photo.
Regards,
Richard
Still mulling around the comma
Whether or not it is a comma or a full stop, I think you have it too high. Running a rule through the picture, it seems to me that the bottom of the white 'square' bit is at the same level as the bottom of the white on the main lettering.
In fact, since the white is pretty distinctive, I reckon you would see a comma's tail on the photo.
Regards,
Richard
JimG
Western Thunderer
Richard,
I can look at thickening up the diagonals of the "N"s. I have made the width of the uprights and the diagonals the same but the picture does give the impression that the diagonal is thicker.
The comma is where it is so that the tail clears the plank line. I will give in to suggestions and change it to a full stop.
I notice that the HMRS has another picture of a Lindsay Crookston wagon in its archive of about the same time. Unfortunately there is no digital image available for their web site but I might just get a copy of both pictures to see if they can help.
Jim.
I can look at thickening up the diagonals of the "N"s. I have made the width of the uprights and the diagonals the same but the picture does give the impression that the diagonal is thicker.
The comma is where it is so that the tail clears the plank line.
I will give in to suggestions and change it to a full stop. I notice that the HMRS has another picture of a Lindsay Crookston wagon in its archive of about the same time. Unfortunately there is no digital image available for their web site but I might just get a copy of both pictures to see if they can help.
Jim.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Evening Jim,
Not wanting to come across as a rivet counter but as Richard has already put his twopenneth in, I personally think the "O"s are a little to squarish and appear more rounded in the photo.
Sorry,
Martyn.
I've moved up Martyn - I'm now a full stop counter
And I think you're right about the 'O's
Cheers
Richard