The Bentall Coach (a private coach in the 1890s)

[Richard Gawler]

By the mid 1870s the railway coach builders were building 6-wheel family saloons to meet an increasing demand from wealthy families for exclusive accommodation. These coaches had a first class saloon with adjoining lavatory, a third class compartment for servants, and space for plenty of luggage.

I want to imagine, a Victorian entrepreneur acquired such a coach second-hand in the 1890s. The coach being useful to bring important customers to the Works, as well as for business trips. I want the coach to be a brake coach (and thus, a brake composite) so it can form an entire train on a small layout.



This is for 7mm scale. The basis is a brake third from the S&DJR, details of the source kit can be found here:
Coach Kit 6 Wheeled Brake Third

The model is not meant to be of a specific prototype but rather to look representative of a vehicle of the period. At the moment the project is mostly an exercise in understanding Victorian social values and standards, and fitting a design into the etched sides. For example, supposing the servants were there to serve and not just to go along for the ride, might there have been a connecting door from the third class compartment to the saloon? All other thoughts would be most welcome too.

 

[Bill Campbell]

Hi Richard

I would suggest a connecting door at the top right of the saloon into the luggage space and then the lavatory accessed from there rather than from the saloon.

Also - would these parts provide your interior?

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Regards.

 

[George M]

A little over 30 years ago I spent quite alot of time in and around the old GNSR Royal Saloon, then based at the old SRPS shed in Falkirk. It was a bogie vehicle (the GNSRs first!) so was a little longer than your 6-wheeler, which allowed a smoking saloon and a small kitchen in addition to what you have.

From memory the layout is as follows:

Servants compartment at one end with connecting door to ...
Luggage compartment.
Guards compartment and kitchen with side corridor connecting all of the above to ...
Main saloon, full width of carriage with connecting door to ...
Smoking saloon. The last later had an end window added when the carriage was converted to an officers saloon.

There was a toilet in there as well, but I don't immediately recall where ...

The carriage is now at Bo'ness and appears on the SRPS museum webpage, which includes a drawing of it in original condition:

Great North of Scotland Railway Royal Saloon

Catalogue of the historic collections of the Scottish Railway Preservation Society

www.srpsmuseum.org.uk

Hope this helps, best regards from Stockholm, George!

 

[Richard Gawler]

I have redrawn my sketch so it is now to scale across the width of the coach as well as along its length. There is less space here than I thought.



The most restricting thing is the third-class size space between the doors of the saloon and the partition nearby. This dictates one seat with a short cushion. So if I suppose a third class seat is 20 inches wide and a first class one is 24 inches, the quantity of first class seats reduces to four. And one of these is shrunk a bit.

The connecting door in the corner into the luggage space consumes space but looks better and will be easier to make. It is more civilised to have a second door between the saloon and the lavatory. Edit: the width of the lavatory compartment, at 3ft 6in, matches those of Holden GER coaches built in 1896-7 so it should be large enough to take a scale-sized WC and hand basin.

There is space for a stool under the desk but there isn't enough space to have a connecting door between the passenger compartments so that solves my first query. The set of 3D printed chairs looks great but with only four chairs to make I could try to make something or look to 1:48 dollshouse furniture.

I am thinking, a private coach wasn't as luxurious as it sounds when the space inside was 7 feet wide.

 

[Osgood]

Seems to me your Victorian entrepreneur should not have hastily grabbed the first coach he found at reasonable cost from last weeks edition of Pre-Loved Carriages, but instead done some homework whilst keeping his powder dry.

The layout of compartments and doors on that SDJR brake third does not lend itself easily to conversion - difficult to achieve a long saloon that is most desirable.
A big part of the trouble is the large luggage compartment in the guards area.

I’ve tried a few alterations but none are ideal - would help greatly if the servants could be accommodated in the brake area, then one side of the end compartment could be used for ablutions, the other door being a lobby entrance into the main saloon, but even then the door arrangement in main saloon is inefficient.

A typical late era saloon is shown here:
Bluebell Railway - SER Saloon carriage 172

Interesting to note the servants compartment was later done away with.

What other carriages might offer more flexibility in layout I wonder?

P.S. Can you confirm did he buy an old family saloon, or an old standard coach that he intends converting into one?

 

[Mike W]

Taking Osgood's suggestion of moving the servants into the luggage area, one of the double luggage doors could be screwed up. That was not unusual for a conversion and saved the cost of removing it. The window in that door could be to the lavatory? On some LNWR conversions the asiest way to tell is that the door handle is removed. The hinges remained.

Mike

 

[Richard Gawler]

To be fair, the chief engineer bought the parts for the coach (as a second-hand unbuilt kit) because the vehicle seemed well-suited the needs of the passengers he expected to use the line. Two compartments and loads of space for their goods going to and from Witham Market. Then he got the idea of a building it as a private coach:
https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/th...ay-passengers-1889-to-1907.11160/#post-263843
(scroll down to the post after this one for his first ideas)

I want to think, the user bought an old family saloon. However, the poor arrangement of the doors into the saloon does suggest they bought a conversion of a standard coach.

 

[Richard Gawler]

Taking Osgood's suggestion of moving the servants into the luggage area, one of the double luggage doors could be screwed up. That was not unusual for a conversion and saved the cost of removing it. The window in that door could be to the lavatory? On some LNWR conversions the asiest way to tell is that the door handle is removed. The hinges remained.

Mike

Redrawn to suit:



The bodywork now has two picture windows on each side and the saloon has enough space for a full-size desk. In fact, the saloon is now becoming a working space as well as a mere conveyance. The desk is large enough to pull up a second chair kept in the luggage space. The remaining double doors allow loading of a smaller commercial specimen too.

Although the coach is now clearly a conversion, it has some character.

 

[Richard Gawler]

. . .

P.S. Can you confirm did he buy an old family saloon, or an old standard coach that he intends converting into one?

Most private saloons were composite coaches, with a lavatory and maybe a kitchenette but without provision for a guard. So I am thinking, my entrepreneur wanted a brake coach so he could run it on the branch line he was backing without needing a separate brake vehicle in the train. He also wanted a decent space for commercial samples.

So he might have found it easier to get a conversion done on a pre-existing brake coach. This rather flies in the face of my opening post (he didn't buy a private coach second-hand) but it still brings potential for a pleasing model on my railway.

The beauty of this kit is its simplicity. However much I chop it around I am not spoiling a highly-detailed kit costing a lot more, nor am I throwing away detail parts I don't need. I am happy enough to sell it and buy something "less unsuitable", but so far the alternatives I have found cost twice the price.

 

[George M]

The only thing I might add is a small door between the servants compartment and the main saloon.

"What is the use of having servants if one cannot use them ... "

It doesn't need to be full size,

"If one's servants cannot fit through the door, one is feeding them too much ..."

You could also make it a slding door into the bulkhead in order to avoid having to make room for the door to swing.


Best regards from Stockholm, George!

 

[simond]

As my dad used to say, “there’s no point in having a dog, and barking yourself”.

 

[Richard Gawler]

I have feeling, the sliding door is a creation of the 20th century. Memories of negotiating BR Mk1 stock with luggage suggest the sliding door only became socially acceptable with the powered ones in the Mk3, 1975 on I suppose.

If the Victorians used sliding doors inside their coaches I would be happy enough to try to make one, but I want a precedent. Really, I need to see direct access between 1st and 3rd class accomodation too. I am very doubtful whether this would have been done at the time. I am not trying to be funny but a serving hatch might have been more acceptable.

 

[Osgood]

Powered sliding doors on Mk3s? Well here's a thing -

I was travelling from Euston to Crewe twice-weekly when they were introduced, and a seat within sight of the door on the first coach down from the buffet car provided a grandstand for the following regular drill:

Person ambles along with two drinks in hands, reaches door that doesn't open (the system timing was tweaked some 6 months later).
Turns 90 degrees, places drinks on one of the adjacent luggage racks and turns back to open the door - which meantime had opened.
Turns back to grab drinks, swings 90 degrees and enters door area.
Door has meanwhile decided there is nobody there and starts to shut.
Two drinks get squashed in door.

Of course there was a natural instinct to warn folk as they approached the door - but nobody ever took any notice.

 

[George M]

Sliding doors were certainly around in victorian times. Here is an 1890s Decauville carriage now on the Östra Södermanland Järnväg near Stockholm:

https://flic.kr/p/2ejFRxq

If you think about it, every corridor carraige also contains plenty of sliding doors between corridor and compartment. I have distinct memories of squeezing through something definitely Victorian and sub-standard in size (at least for a 6' Scotsman!) but can't currently recall where ...

Best regards, George!

 

[Richard Gawler]

Well, this is a Holden design built from 1899 to 1906 and all of the doors are hinged not sliding. Perhaps the GER felt that hinged doors, whilst blocking the corridor, made for speedier loading and unloading on their commuter trains.

This doesn't preclude me putting a sliding door into my model coach, but the Holden composite does show a rigorous segregation of the passengers in the different classes of accomodation. My third class compartment has four seats: two for the staff of the owner, and two for the staff of the customer. Their occupants would be travelling together, maybe preparing a picnic to serve at a convenient stopping point, but surely not popping in and out of the saloon?

I have copied this drawing from the website of the Great Eastern Railway Society to help to illustrate this topic. Source: Types 5-8

 

[Rob R]

Richard,
If you go up a class a little this royal saloon has sliding doors.
Edit. I suspect hinged doors were cheaper......

 

[D6356]

I wonder on this the servants comp would be for travelling only- off duty, on duty in the luggage area which would then provide access to hampers for food stuffs etc and at beck and call of the employer. Perhaps a fold down table from side of W,C. wall, blocking door - but still there is the van door at end.
Duckets often incorporated viewing seat / home for the "guard". In this case this would free up end of vehicle for limited fixed storage.
All in all a great idea and use of etchings to add an unusual vehicle.
Robert

 

[Richard Gawler]

Thanks for this Robert, I didn't know about the seats inside the duckets. I had forgotten about the two small windows in the guard's end too so I have drawn these in along with all of the other fixed windows. Putting the seats for the guard in the duckets lets me move the brake wheel to the end of the compartment and this makes the space more usable. I have drawn in a spare chair for use with the desk and this rather shows, the luggage compartment isn't as generous as it looked on my first sketch.

I have moved the window for the lavatory so it isn't partly obscured by the partition, and swapped the WC and basin to suit. And put in a communicating door between the passenger compartments on the basis everyone knew when they were allowed to use it. I like the idea of a folding table in the guards compartment but I fear it will get in the way and, when it is folded away, the stuff taken off it will get in the way just as badly.

I forgot to mention a while ago, the drawing shows the coach at waist height and ignores the turnunder. This is why most of the furniture seems to be pulled inwards from the sides.

 

[D6356]

That does look good. l do wonder if there would be a hatch between staff and gaffer as it could serve no purpose given no facilities in servants area. I do recall social commentary that there was respect for staff with protocols for behaviour and staff areas were private, this hatch cuts through that.
I wonder if folding chairs which are not new would have been a solution.
The fold up / down table was common even in MK1 dmu vans for parcels. I wonder if food was hamper supplied the table would only be a temporary servery for plating up the sandwiches for the servant/ valet to use.
End windows would allow some extra light and views.
Looking forward to construction , Will you used modelu folk to inhabit - chance to get yourself scanned perhaps?
Robert

 

[Mike W]

Picnic Saloons and Family Saloons often didn't have much in the way of facilities - just a luggage area where folding table(s) were useful. See attached of preserved Picnic Saloon at Quainton Road (photo by Tony Lyster).