Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Sorry Brian, I thought I had made the point it was a 15 - my apologies for being vague !

Roger

Thank you Roger. In fairness I think, on re-reading, I failed to take in the full details you provided. My apologies.

I'll comment on the other posts when I come to put up the next set of photos. In the interim - thank you all.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A2 60520 Owen Tudor light engine at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was allocated to New England at the time of the photo and withdrawn only two months after. (SLS). It was in to Doncaster Works for cutting up by the end of August. (BR Database).

Notice the Pullman cars in the background.

An unidentified locomotive entering Kings Cross in April 1963. Deltic hiding on the extreme left of frame.

Nice view of the southbound York Road Widened Lines platform on the right and how it was shoehorned into the site.

 

[oldravendale]

There's a few "thanks" from me here. Firstly, all the info about the Class 15, Roger, Robert, Mickoo, Tim and Roja. Much appreciated.

Simon and Robert - I get so much pleasure out of working on these photos it's a great thing for me to be able to share them. I'll pass your kind comments on to Tim's family.

And Dave. Thanks for your observations about the previous post which all adds colour to the descriptions.

We're now up to image 1736 and this lot run up to image 4229 so quite a few to come (!) before we start on a set I'm pleased to say I managed to get to at Tim's request when he was still with us. There's another couple of hundred minimum there - and then it's on to colour slides.

Today we're in to a sequence of either preserved locos or Settle & Carlisle so I'll make minimal comments as details of the locos are already well known. However, as ever I'll welcome comments to fill the data out.

Ex LSWR T9 120 at Waterloo in 1963. The train is not confirmed in Tim's notes and 120 worked the Scottish Belle on 15th September which we know Tim photographed so he was unlikely to be travelling on it, then 120 was on the North Cornishman on 27th April and there are no supporting photos for that and finally the Hampshire Venturer on 10th March, and as there's a ticket for this train in the box of negs and later there are some more photos at Southampton Docks I'll plump for that.

Subsequent information suggests that this is not the Hampshire Venturer. See additional info below.




This one is from the train with 120 leading.




Believed to be 5407 on the Cumbrian Mountain Pullman taken from Settle Junction in the 1980s. Ribblehead and train in background. I've travelled the S&C a few times but my knowledge of the route is not great. Can the location as Settle Junction be confirmed, please?



An artistic (!) shot of redundant chairs at the same location.



...and this is the same location, again some time in the 1980s.



There's no doubt this is 5407 on the Cumbrian Mountain Pullman some time in the 1980s. Is this still Settle Junction?







We've actually seen this shot previously which Tim entitled Ladykillers Street Kings Cross but we know it isn't. I quote here from comments receive at the time of the first showing: "I have no idea why it would be thus labeled given that it is Liverpool Road Manchester looking towards Bridge Street! My guess for a date would be late seventies - just before the old Liverpool Road station building was restored as part of the Museum of Science and Industry."



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Complete with probable Leyland Atlantean in SELNEC [South East Lancashire North East Cheshire] orange and cream livery. I was up at Manchester University for five years from 1971 onwards and I think most buses had changed colour from the previous red Manchester livery by then so perhaps a little earlier in the '70s?

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.
I don't think that's Ribblehead viaduct - wrong terrain and curved approach. The station looking the other way is Dent, so perhaps all those shots are there and the viaduct is Denthead?
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Believed to be 5407 on the Cumbrian Mountain Pullman taken from Settle Junction in the 1980s. Ribblehead and train in background. I've travelled the S&C a few times but my knowledge of the route is not great. Can the location as Settle Junction be confirmed, please?

An artistic (!) shot of redundant chairs at the same location.

...and this is the same location, again some time in the 1980s.

As noted above the first three were taken at Dent. The train is crossing Arten Gill Viaduct.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

There's no doubt this is 5407 on the Cumbrian Mountain Pullman some time in the 1980s. Is this still Settle Junction?

As I live 25 miles from here I should really know. The last three were taken at Settle Junction .

 

[daifly]

And the second photo shows Guildford Cathedral tower under construction with the train waiting to enter Guildford station from the east.
Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Arun. We're probably getting a bit nearer an accurate date for that photo. However, Manchester it is!

Dave and Yorkie Dave. Thanks for the geography lesson. I'm a lot more comfortable with the location now.

And Dave (daifly). That's very helpful and makes complete sense. However, it knocks the Hampshire Venturer on the head as the train, as this didn't travel via Guildford. I now suspect that Tim has the year wrong and we're looking at The Sussex Coast Limited on 24th June 1962. The locos involved in that train match other photos Tim took so we can be reasonably confident about that. I believe Tim was on the Hampshire Venturer as well so that'll come up in due course. I've redated the copyright on the photo and will add your comments and these to the details.

A mixture today and also starting again on a sequence on the WCML.

This photo is in a sequence of negatives taken at the same time as the last of those in the previous post, so 1970s. It's clearly a Brush Type 4/Class 47 under the wires but we know not where. Probably the WCML.



The next two are in the same sequence of negs so again in the 1970s but this time on the GCR looking south towards Leicester at Rothley. N2 4744 features - a cracking loco when it was there for many years and still missed by many.





Finally, to get us back on track and from a new sequence of negatives, is Britannia itself, No 70000 at North Wembley in May 1963. It was at Willesden at the time although migrated in the following month to Crewe North. (SLS) Its journey in preservation is detailed elsewhere.

 

[mickoo]

The 47 is definitely not WCML, that's Mk IV OHLE so it's ECML.

It's an early morning shot on the up fast, my gut feeling is St Neots, Sandy area, it has the 'Cambridgeshire/Hertfordshire' feel to the scenery.

I've had a quick zoom in Google maps and I'd wager heavily it's Chantry Lane just north of Stevenage.



The Sub station is new and the aerial shot shows it fully developed with a parking area for MOW equipment and gates out to the track. The track profile with slow lines set away from the mains (to pass under Chantry Lane bridge) and tree lines are very close.

This earlier street view from 2009 has less vegetation blocking the street view and shows the genesis of the new sub, no parking lot and no connection to the OHLE, later shots show it more developed and new (heavier) portals up near the trees on the right to take the feed from the sub to the OHLE



If you zoom in and crop to match Tims viewfinder it's a bit more convincing, even down to the drain positions between the up fast and slow, though the more modern view has concrete surrounds to lift the grill above the ballast level.



For me the telegraph pole smack in the middle of the paddock matches the two locations.

In a odd twist, I may even have some photos from the same bridge as I went out that way to meet my mate who lived in Stevenage and shot off some photos in and around Stevenage ECML, absolutely no idea where they are to be honest!

 

[daifly]

After a bit of digging, I found this undated photo in the Guildford Cathedral archive. Google Image Result for https://www.guildford-cathedral.org/learn/archive/our-collections/image/Guildcath_1_I1_1_102.jpg
Although the cathedral is listed as completed in 1961, this is misleading as it was consecrated in 1961 but the tower and bells were not finished until 1965.
Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This photo is in a sequence of negatives taken at the same time as the last of those in the previous post, so 1970s. It's clearly a Brush Type 4/Class 47 under the wires but we know not where. Probably the WCML.

To corroborate @mickoo this is the ECML as the up and down fast lines are in the centre rather than in pairs as the WCML and also concur with the location.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This one is from the train with 120 leading.

This annotated 1:10 000/1:10,560 1949-72 OS map (NLS) shows the photo was taken on the line from Effingham Junction.

 

[daifly]

This annotated 1:10 000/1:10,560 1949-72 OS map (NLS) shows the photo was taken on the line from Effingham Junction.

View attachment 185009

As I, ahem, implied in post 2108!

And the second photo shows Guildford Cathedral tower under construction with the train waiting to enter Guildford station from the east.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for all those comments - I'll get back on stream very soon, however....

I've just processed this and it will turn up in the normal run of photos - eventually - but Mickoo may desperately need to see this. Spifire at Waterloo. There's no info with it to suggest a date but I'll bet it's mid-sixties at the earliest. Look at that lovely wrinkly tin and mismatched joins. We'd never get away with it if we modelled this! That roof line looks ever so suspect as well.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just a small comment to add to IMG 1737 and the map of Guildford. The train is standing at the down Chobham line home signals for Guildford Yard box. The left hand arm 1 and associated calling on arm beneath it 3, read to the bay platform (1), the right hand arm 2 reads to the down Chobham platform (2). This spectacle has an obscured green aspect because when the sigtnal was off the 2 aspect colour light signal was illuminated with either a yellow or green aspect depending on what WY43 at the far end of the platform was showing. This was an arrangement the SR and its successor used a lot for the transition from semaphore to multiple aspect signalling, but not so common elsewhere. The picture also shows the fireman most likely, on his way to the phone at the signal to carry out Rule 55, "Detention of a train on running lines" and still in force today, if inevitably called something else.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Well, the reaction to that colour photo suggests that there'll be a deal of interest when we get to the colour file. There's a way to go before that with these black and white photos, though.

Thank you, Mickoo and Yorkie Dave for the further geography lesson. That's remarkably detailed as far as the location is concerned. Would you now use your crystal balls to determine the date?

Dave - daifly - you did indeed refer to the location and thanks for the additional info re-Guildford Cathedral. I visited once a few years ago and sorry to say I thought it was really ugly so haven't returned. But as I'm frequently told I'm something of a philistine. And on the same subject, Martin, that's excellent and detailed information which I doubt I'd have found anywhere else.

Today solidly on the WCML.

Two photos here of unidentified Black 5s at North Wembley in May 1963





A rebuilt Patriot, 45530 Sir Frank Ree, at Bushey in May 1963. It was allocated to Willesden at the time and moved to Holyhead in July 1964 before ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Inslow Works, Wishaw, by the end of March 1966. (Rail UK)



Finally 42577, a Stanier 2-6-4T, at Bushey in May 1963. This was also a Willesden engine being transferred to Springs Branch Wigan in August 1965 from where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS). It then went to Cashmore's at Newport where it was scrapped in June. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Look at that lovely wrinkly tin and mismatched joins. We'd never get away with it if we modelled this! That roof line looks ever so suspect as well.

View attachment 185026

Brian

Nothing a small ball pein wouldn't sort out
I wish models were more authentic !

 

[mickoo]

Thank you, Mickoo and Yorkie Dave for the further geography lesson. That's remarkably detailed as far as the location is concerned. Would you now use your crystal balls to determine the date?

Brian

Well I'm confident it's not the 70's, phase one of the ECML electrification was 76/77, but it's the solid head code panel with marker lights on the 47/4 and I'm sure they came on stream in the early 80's. You say it's in the same strip as the S&C photos and all those are in the 80's.

 

[Renovater]

View attachment 185026

I can still remember them like that coming up the hill into Pokesdown station just down the road in 67, i was eight nearly nine at the time, just starting to trainspot with my Ian Allen club badge, I used to sneak into the station which never really had many passengers by "bending" down and passing under the ticket office window. I can tell you when they came under the bridge into the station without stopping with a whistle and starting to pick up speed it was a little unsettling at that age. I can't be sure if it was a rebuilt or not but i did see the originals down at central in 66. Thanks for the photo.

Colin.