Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

From "Britain From Above" Image EPW058072 of 1938

I would say that the tunnel retaining wall was first(1830's?) and then a second was built later on the property boundary for the timber yard or it's predecessor.

The 1938 aerial view was something I was looking for. I would go on to say both the the Saw Mill property and tunnel retaining walls were built concurrently when the railway reached the area as the soil/rock would have been removed to drop the railway property into a cutting.

This 1840s-1890s 1:500/1:528 NLS OS extract shows how the two retaining walls converge and incidentally provides a nice track plan of the engine shed complete with ash pit locations. It would be nice to have pre-railway map to compare with.

 

[simond]

I’ve spoilt my paper…

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Apologies for continuing with Monument Lane theme.

I've managed to find a map on t'interweb of Birmingham which only shows both the London and Birmingham and Grand Junction Railway termini thereby dating it around 1837/38. I have cropped the areas around Monument Lane from both this map (left) and the 1840-1880s six inch OS map from NSL (right). It is difficult to overlay one on the other as the colours are too similar and the scales differ.

Comparing the two what is most apparent is the building which has taken place. The railway roughly occupies the area I have bounded in red and broadly the main roads remain intact. The magenta/purple outline is Bingley Hall.



The 1837/8 map appears to be based on a 1824/5 Minute Trigonometrical Survey by J Pigott Smith a Birmingham engineer and surveyor using triangulation. This appears to differ to the OS map which came later from the 1840s as they moved northwards with their surveying. It also maybe down to measurement interpretation, recording, instrument quality, subsequent drawing and later developments. In addition J Pigott Smith may have triangulated from a local base line rather than the one established in the south of the country by the Ordnance Survey - who knows.

Second diversion over...

 

[oldravendale]

Michael - Thank you for your comment about the 042 which I'd not noticed. Duly to be added to the notes.

Well, I was quite prepared to fight my corner for a horse bridge but thanks to Yorkshire Dave, Martin, Rob and Simon I'm now equally convinced that's simply a retaining wall and back fill. Thank you chaps, and another photo where I need to open a whole section of notes. I hope that all answers your question, Paul, and what in interesting rabbit hole to go down, even if it wasn't terribly deep.

Ian - 40646 was one of the last but not the very last. That dubious honour fell to 40694 - see post #2901.

A Midland 2F 0-6-0 sandwich here with 58204 between G2a 49343 in front and Jinty 47363 behind in Bescot Shed Yard. The G2a is in the previous post, #2905 so details are there. The 2F was allocated to Bushbury in March 1956 and was withdrawn from there in May 1959. (SLS). Rail UK record it as having been stored at Bushbury for over two years so it appears that Bescot may have been a concentration point for withdrawn locos once sold. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of August 1961 (BR Database) so another confirmation that the date of the photo must be between May and August. 47363 had also been a Bushbury engine since May 1953 and was withdrawn from there in December 1959. (SLS). This also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where BR Database record it as scrapped in March 1961 - Rail UK propose a date c1959 and WHTS don't suggest a date but I suggest that neither c1959 nor March 1961 can be correct and it probably moved to Cashmore's with 58204 being scrapped around the same time.





Yet another G2a, this time 49440 in Bescot Yard between May and August 1961- that rubbish in the tender could hardly qualify as coal! SLS and BR Database record this as being a Pontypool Road engine in November 1957 but BR Database propose a final shed of Nuneaton in March 1958. Both agree on a withdrawal date of March 1962 and Rail UK agrees the withdrawal date and also the final shed as Nuneaton. It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of April 1962. (Rail UK).



Another MR 2F, this time 58124 inside Bushbury shed between May and August 1961. It was shedded at Bushbury from the end of January 1959, went to Bescot in March 1962 and was withdrawn in July. (SLS). It was another that went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following October.



Returning to Germany and mainly Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 although I'm assuming that the first two are from the adjacent station - the signal box tells us it's Rheine. A Pacific 012 080-8.





On shed at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine with oil burning 2-10-0 043 094-2 in March 1974.







and finally an unidentified 2-10-0 with another entering the turntable at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine - possibly 2-10-0 043 094-2 above.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I would imagine that the Midland 2F's were redundant from a branch working near Longbridge, I believe, which had a bridge with restricted loading. They must have been pretty worn out as around that time Coalville(15D) was pulling in 2F's from anywhere it could get them to replace the ones being withdrawn from their allocation. They were necessary to work through the Glenfield Tunnel on the Desford to Leicester line, (the original Swannington Railway) before someone had the bright idea of cutting back the cabs on a couple of Standard class 2MT 2-6-0's, which then worked the branch until closure..

Roger.

 

[ovener]

g

Michael - Thank you for your comment about the 042 which I'd not noticed. Duly to be added to the notes.

Well, I was quite prepared to fight my corner for a horse bridge but thanks to Yorkshire Dave, Martin, Rob and Simon I'm now equally convinced that's simply a retaining wall and back fill. Thank you chaps, and another photo where I need to open a whole section of notes. I hope that all answers your question, Paul, and what in interesting rabbit hole to go down, even if it wasn't terribly deep.

Ian - 40646 was one of the last but not the very last. That dubious honour fell to 40694 - see post #2901.

A Midland 2F 0-6-0 sandwich here with 58204 between G2a 49343 in front and Jinty 47363 behind in Bescot Shed Yard. The G2a is in the previous post, #2905 so details are there. The 2F was allocated to Bushbury in March 1956 and was withdrawn from there in May 1959. (SLS). Rail UK record it as having been stored at Bushbury for over two years so it appears that Bescot may have been a concentration point for withdrawn locos once sold. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of August 1961 (BR Database) so another confirmation that the date of the photo must be between May and August. 47363 had also been a Bushbury engine since May 1953 and was withdrawn from there in December 1959. (SLS). This also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where BR Database record it as scrapped in March 1961 - Rail UK propose a date c1959 and WHTS don't suggest a date but I suggest that neither c1959 nor March 1961 can be correct and it probably moved to Cashmore's with 58204 being scrapped around the same time.

View attachment 206159

View attachment 206160

Yet another G2a, this time 49440 in Bescot Yard between May and August 1961- that rubbish in the tender could hardly qualify as coal! SLS and BR Database record this as being a Pontypool Road engine in November 1957 but BR Database propose a final shed of Nuneaton in March 1958. Both agree on a withdrawal date of March 1962 and Rail UK agrees the withdrawal date and also the final shed as Nuneaton. It was scrapped at Crewe Works by the end of April 1962. (Rail UK).

View attachment 206161

Another MR 2F, this time 58124 inside Bushbury shed between May and August 1961. It was shedded at Bushbury from the end of January 1959, went to Bescot in March 1962 and was withdrawn in July. (SLS). It was another that went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following October.

View attachment 206162

Returning to Germany and mainly Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 although I'm assuming that the first two are from the adjacent station - the signal box tells us it's Rheine. An unidentified Pacific...

View attachment 206165

View attachment 206166

On shed with 2-10-0 043 094-2 in March 1974.

View attachment 206167

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and finally an unidentified 2-10-0 with another entering the turntable - possibly 043 094-2 above.

View attachment 206168

Brian

Looking at those DB monsters, I was intrigued to see the tiny rail stop blocks round the turntable roads. I wonder if they'd actually stop one of those if someone over-ran them!

 

[mickoo]

I'll wager heavily the Pacific is the same one as seen earlier, same track same location virtually, in addition there appears to be a unique crease in the cab side which can just be made out in the second shot, you'll see it better on the master images no doubt.





Note also the bent top step tread just ahead of the cab below the running board.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick. That's indisputably correct! And I'd not noticed it. Regrettably I did not scan these in frame order as I wanted to minimise handling the negs but we pay the price for that. Doubtless that first image was in the preceding negative strip. It's so useful having someone check my homework.

Thanks to Roger as well for comments about the 2Fs. This will be of particular interest to Tim's family as his last home was at Coalville and his wife still lives there.

As for those rail stops, Ovener, I'll guess they'd be easily over ridden but they are probably sufficient to "feel" the end of the track.

Now at Oxley but still between July and August 1961. 2884 2-8-0 2888 in the shed yard. It was allocated to Oxley from April 1961 and moved to Banbury in December being withdrawn from there in February 1963. (SLS). According to BR Database and Rail UK it was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, during the following June but WHTS have a report by SLS of it being seen in store at Banbury at the end of October and the Railway Observer that it was cut up at Cashmore's by the year end. In 1946 this had been converted to oil burning as No 4850 and was converted back in September 1948.




Two pannier tanks in Oxley Shed between May and August 1961. 94XX 8428 had been allocated to Oxley when new in February 1951 and was withdrawn from there in October 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in November 1963. (BR Database). 57XX 4625 is carrying an 85A Worcester shed plate where it had been since August 1958. It was transferred to Oxley on 15th July 1961 and withdrawn in May 1962. It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in September. (BR Database). Surmise on my part which may refine the date of the photos even further... As 4625 is carrying the shed plate for Worcester but is in Oxley where it was officially transferred is it possible that the photo is immediately at the time of transfer, ie July? If so it makes the dates of these photos mid July/August 1961. I'm inclined to date them as such.



42XX 2-8-0T 4290 in Oxley Loco Shed probably mid July - August 1961 carrying an 86A, Ebbw Junction Newport shed plate. It had been at Duffryn Yard since mid August 1961 and was transferred to Ebbw Junction on 9th September. (SLS). This was probably the booked date of transfer as we already now that these photos cannot be after August. It was withdrawn in February 1963 and was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in July. (BR Database). I wonder whether this loco was being used to haul stored locos for scrap to Great Bridge/Newport. In the background is 56XX 0-6-2T 6645 which had been allocated to Oxley since December 1946 and was withdrawn at the end of August 1962 (SLS) being scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in July 1963. (BR Database).



I've run out of time to do any German photos today. More will follow shortly.

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Now at Oxley but still between May and August 1961. 2884 2-8-0 2888 in the shed yard. It was allocated to Oxley from April 1961 and moved to Banbury in December being withdrawn from there in February 1963.

In the interests of accuracy... December 1961 or December 1962?

 

[Martin Shaw]

According to my info, neither. Recorded as Banbury x/11/61.

 

[oldravendale]

OOOh! Controversy! I love a bit of controversy. (How can we get so interested in detail? I love it! From an historical perspective for those whom I hope will be able to use this archive the detail may be important. It was Mickoo who pointed this out much earlier.) Dog Star -December 1961. Martin - you have better details about 2888 than I have - my Locoshed books have a significant gap in them. Would you let me know your reference, please? Mine is BR Database and the SLS although both on the BR Database site. We can then fight it out!

Thanks both.

Brian

 

[76043]

That 42xx has chalk writing on it and a finish which suggests it is being repainted?
Tony

 

[daifly]

4290 was reported in Stafford Road Erecting Shop on 2nd July '61. I suggest that the photo post-dates that event and the chalk marks visible on several parts may be to assist identification when the loco was reassembled from the works 'kit'. I suspect that it was repainted though. I have an undated photo of 4290 at Ebbw Junction in a recently-painted condition but after it had lost the lamp iron on top of the smokebox. Several of the class had two lamp irons; one on the door and one on top of the smokebox.
Dave

 

[Martin Shaw]

Martin - you have better details about 2888 than I have - my Locoshed books have a significant gap in them. Would you let me know your reference, please? Mine is BR Database and the SLS although both on the BR Database site. We can then fight it out!

I don't know about better, different obviously.



My main reference for loco classes not covered by Irwell's "Book of" series is usually Hugh Longworth's book, which as the title suggests covers the BR era allocations and withdrawal dates but nothing else in terms of pre 1948 or ultimate disposal. The author in the preface notes his main source of data is "The Railway Observer" (RCTS) but with cross referencing to other published info and locoshed books as well as research at the national archives. I doubt it is 100% accurate, any wrong info in other publications will be reflected but I think it might be reasonably correct most of the time. I 'm not up for a fight, mild disagreement is the best I can do at the mo.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Martin. Let's have a mild disagreement then.

Your reference is helpful and I'll add it to the info for this image. Mine is mainly based around what is in BR Database and the SLS listings on the BR Database sites. I went to Rail UK to see what that says, and it agrees with the SLS - last shed Banbury and withdrawal 28th February 1963. These sites may not be entirely reliable as we don't know whether the records feed from one another or are based on primary sources. As I mentioned previously, and although we have doubts about the absolute accuracy of WHTS it agrees withdrawal in February 1963 after being in store at Banbury from February to September 1963. The Railway Observer reported in March 1964 that the loco was cut up at Cashmore's in late 1963.

I suggest the best we can do with this is to attach both sets of info to the picture as there is clearly some uncertainty and at this distance in time, unless a trusted observer who still has his notebooks comes forward, we have to settle for giving all the references in one place.

I'm very grateful that you've taken the trouble to detail this difference. It helps to make the record complete even if rather confusing.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just for reference, the storage location is a surmise pending works attention at possibly Stafford Road during 1959, I have nothing further that helps.
2888 Pontypool Rd 11/48, Severn Tunnel Junc 1/53, Llanelly 8/58, Stored (poss Llanelly) 11/58, Oxley 2/59, Tyseley 3/59, Stourbridge 4/59, Oxley 4/61, Banbury 11/61, Wdn 2/63.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Tony and Dave. Thanks for mentioning the chalk markings on the 42XX. I remember seeing similar in works when locos were being repaired or repainted. I suspect you are correct here, Dave, in that the loco is probably part way through a repaint. I didn't get to the bottom of the page on BR Database but now I have I note that the entry about the loco being in Stafford Road Works was by the SLS, so (notwithstanding some errors we've identified) probably quite reasonably reliable. Interesting comment about the top lamp iron as well. And for yours re 2888. Martin.

45XX 2-6-2T 4507 in Oxley Shed Yard probably between July and August 1961. It looks as though it's carrying a 72C Yeovil shed plate. This was the last engine to be built at Wolverhampton Stafford Road Works in 1907. It was a long way from home as SLS agree this to have been a Yeovil Town engine at the time, being withdrawn from there in October or November 1963. Rail UK reports the final shed as Yeovil and the withdrawal date as 31st October. It was scrapped at Bird's, Newport, by the end of June 1964. (Rail UK).



72XX 2-8-2T 7245 carrying an 86A Newport Ebbw Junction shed plate in Oxley Loco Yard probably between July and August 1961. Details of the allocation of the loco are sketchy for this time in it's career. The first allocation SLS can give us is Aberbeeg in February 1963 although BR Database advises it was at Ebbw Junction Newport in June 1947 before moving to Aberbeeg so it is possible it was a long term resident in Newport. After Aberbeeg it moved to Radyr in February 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following September, then being reinstated in October with no final withdrawal date stated in the SLS record. However Rail UK record the withdrawal date as the end of September 1964 and disposal at Hayes, Bridgend, in November 1964.


Leaving the Midlands now back to LNER territory.

A3 60076 Galopin on arrival at Kings Cross on 22nd July 1961. It became a Gateshead engine in July 1961 and the final shed was Heaton in early October 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of the month. (SLS). It was scrapped in Doncaster Works in April 1963. (Rail UK).



Apologies - I've run out of time to present any more German locos again. I may have an opportunity later this afternoon.

Brian

 

[AJC]

Nice to see a Yeovil engine. A couple of pictures of her from her final year from Flickr below. First round the back at 'Town shed (where she seemed to spend a fair amount of time - I think she was the only 45xx ever allocated there and seemed to, perhaps because of the smaller tanks relative to the 4575s):

https://flic.kr/p/6FDTVj

And in the scrap road at Swindon:

https://flic.kr/p/reynC9

No idea what she might have been about at Oxley.

Adam

EDIT - and a couple from Mike Morant's collection showing her actually in steam:

GWR 2-6-2T's - MikeMorant

GWR Churchward 4500 class 2-6-2T no. 4507 at Yeovil Town. [Mike Morant collection]

mikemorant.smugmug.com

GWR 2-6-2T's - MikeMorant

GWR Churchward 4500 class 2-6-2T no. 4507 at Yeovil Town. [Mike Morant collection]

mikemorant.smugmug.com

 

[daifly]

Is it possible that the WR locos seen in Oxley yard/shed so far from home were either pre- or post- a visit to Stafford Road Works? Presumably Swindon Works would have been busy building the "Westerns" in A Shop. I recall as an impecunious (i.e. no camera!) 10 year-old going round the works on a Wednesday afternoon in 1961 and seeing a long row of red oxide-painted frames with their final 'Western' locomotive numbers chalked on them. Maybe Swindon capacity constraints dictated a maintenance visit to the Midlands instead? Some work would have been carried out there anyway but was relatively rarely photographed.
Dave

 

[MarkR]

4507 was the last locomotive constructed at Wolverhampton works, and for many years it was a regular locomotive on the Bridport Branch together with 4562, both sub-shedded at Bridport, and they were the last two locomotive to leave Bridport shed on Monday 15th. June 1959.there are some excellent pictures in "The Bridport Branch" by Gerry Beale, published by Wild Swan Books.
In the last few days I have added a 7mm 4507 to my collection (I already have 4562) and they will work the Bride Valley extension to Litton Cheney in the very distant future along with Bridport Branch 57xx and 14xx locomotives!
Mark