Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Those British ones above - rubbish pics, especially the 43xx

Tony - How very could you?

Mick and Dave - yet again... Thank you. I agree with Mick about the beardy one and the one behind him, come to that. If you really enjoy these investigations I'm pretty sure there'll be more to come. Your details are so valuable in putting the photos in to context as well as providing an historical perspective in terms of how these locations have changed. I agree that this was more than a one day trip although I have no absolute proof of that.

Arun. You noticed my deliberate mistake... In fact I took the attributed details and went with them without checking the photo itself. I'll now re-write the details using your write up to attribute them correctly to 9704. I'll be grateful if you'll continue to check my homework. Thanks, Arun.

I wonder what excitement (!) we'll have today.

Three similar shots of a positively sparkling Castle 7017 G. J. Churchward in Old Oak Common Roundhouse on 18th June 1961 carrying the Royal Train reporting number headboard. This had been allocated to Old Oak Common from August 1954 and was withdrawn in February 1963 after a period in store at Old Oak from the previous November. It was scrapped in January 1964 at King's, Norwich.







Castle 5091 Cleeve Abbey in Old Oak Common Yard on 18th June 1961. This has previously been in two 1963 photos. It was allocated to Landore in July 1958 and to Llanelli the day before this photos was taken, on 17th June 1961. It moved to Cardiff Canton in October the same year, then Cardiff East Dock in September 1962, Worcester in April 1964 and Tyseley in either late June or early July 1964 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in November at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



Hall 5942 Doldowlod Hall in Old Oak Common Yard on 18th June 1961. It had been at Shrewsbury since December 1959, then Tyseley in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in late November or mid-December 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in June 1964. (BR Database).



Back to Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and two of oil burning 2-8-2 042 347-5 at Rheine.





Still in Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 but a break from the railways with a Mercedes bus, probably at Rheine. Other details unknown.

Edit: It's Rheine Bahnhofstraße - with the entrance to the goods yard on the right. The bus is the classic first generation Standard-Linienbusse - a Mercedes O 305 built from 1969 to 1988 either as a single deck variant (as shown) or as an articulated single deck bus.

In my eyes the Mercedes bus was a far better design than the two standard british equivalents of the period, the Bristol LH (1967-82) and the Leyland National (1972-85). In respect of the Leyland Nationals when I lived in Aylesbury you would often hear anecdotally the London Country drivers saying if you kicked the rear engine side panels it'd stop working.



Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an oil burning but otherwise unidentified loco at Rheine.

Edit. The unidentified engine is 012 063-4, it's certainly an 012 class, five wheel tender and rubber bellows are a give away and the checksum digit looks like a 4 and the last loco digit looks like a 3 or 8. The only two engines that match that criteria are 058-4 and 063-4 both Bw Rheine engines, certainly 063-4.

I'd go along with 012 063-4 as a year earlier 012 058-4 was retired from service on 12/04/1973 or 08/05/1973 (depending upon which record is correct) then transferred to AW Braunschweig on 20/04/1975. dampflokomotivarchiv.de 012 058-4 was delivered to Bw Rheine on 12/12/1972.

It is 012 063-4, it's come off the shed, run up to the throat and backed onto Tims train is my best guess.

Note the oil line along the firebox, 063-4 has a distinct kink in it, (see img4091) now I haven't checked all my 012 photos, but of the few hundred I have, I've not seen any others with a kink exactly like that, plus in this case, same day, same photographer, too coincidental not to be the same engine.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I find it slightly strange that of all the Castles that could have been named after Churchward, Swindon chose one of the first BR built batch, the tenth in fact, whereas the last GWR built castle 7007 was perhaps reasonably named after the company. Disentangling the whys and wherefores of railway history is a never ending joy. I have also realised that unlike everywhere else the GWR/WR reallocated locomotives to works as opposed to a running sheds, presumably for an accountancy purpose, anyone any thoughts or knowledge on this?

7017 G.J.Churchward. Originally intended to be called Cranbrook Castle, presumably the Iron Age fort near Moretonhampstead rather than the tower near Ilford.
Erected 8/48, Swindon 9/48, Swindon 20/10/48 (special oil tests), Old Oak 11/48, Canton 12/48, Old Oak 9/7/54, Stored 12/11/62, Wdn 4/2/63.

5091 Cleeve Abbey. Cistercian monastery in Washford Somerset. 12/38 Rebuild of Star Class 4071 with the same name. Converted to oil burning at Swindon 31/8/46, converted back to coal burning at Swindon 5/10/48.
Bristol Bath Road 18/12/38, Weymouth 4/39, Bath Road 6/39, Swindon 30/6/47, Shrewsbury 5/53, Swindon 3/2/54, Shrewsbury 4/54, Chester 9/55, Exeter 6/57, Carmarthen 9/57, Landore 12/6/58, Llanelly 13/6/61, Canton 11/9/61, Cardiff East Dock 7/9/62, Worcester 13/4/64, Tyseley 14/6/64 (nominally LM region), Wdn 3/10/64.

5942 Doldowlod Hall. Country house in the Wye Valley once the home of James Watt and still occupied by his descendants.
Old Oak 9/3/35, Reading 4/3/35, Worcester 24/7/37, Stafford Road 15/10/38, Oxley 7/10/50, Reading 14/6/52, Oxford 3/10/59,
Shrewsbury 26/12/59, Transfer to LMR 30/12/62, Tyseley 6/7/63, Shrewsbury 5/10/63, Wdn 2/12/63, Sold to J.Cashmore 28/2/64.

Martin

 

[Dog Star]

I have also realised that unlike everywhere else the GWR/WR reallocated locomotives to works as opposed to a running sheds, presumably for an accountancy purpose, anyone any thoughts or knowledge on this?

Actually a bit more of a puzzle than you have written.

The GWR Engine Allocation registers have three ways of showing "an engine at Swindon". There are engines shown as allocated to the running shed.... such allocations are shown as "SN". Then there are engines accepted for works attention... such are shown as "SW". Finally, there are engines which are not "on works" and are not available to the running department - those engines are recorded as allocated to Swindon Stock Shed or "SS". I think that an element of the distinctions is to ensure that the running department could not "dump" an engine onto the works for repair when that repair was more appropriate to running repairs (think about which bit of the organisation was accountable for an engine out of service).

Any engine which was out of traffic - be it subject to works attention or running shed repair - was shown in the register with the out of traffic period recorded in red ink (as against blue or black ink for an engine available for service). Unfortunately I cannot remember what colour ink was used for the "SS" allocation.

regards, Graham

 

[mickoo]

Fairly sure the unidentified engine is 012 063-4, it's certainly an 012 class, five wheel tender and rubber bellows are a give away and the checksum digit looks like a 4 and the last loco digit looks like a 3 or 8. The only two engines that match that criteria are 058-4 and 063-4 both Bw Rheine engines, certainly 063-4.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Still in Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 but a break from the railways with a Mercedes bus, probably at Rheine. Other details unknown.

Yes it's Rheine Bahnhofstraße - with the entrance to the goods yard on the right. The bus is the classic first generation Standard-Linienbusse - a Mercedes O 305 built from 1969 to 1988 either as a single deck variant (as shown) or as an articulated single deck bus.

In my eyes the Mercedes bus was a far better design than the two standard british equivalents of the period, the Bristol LH (1967-82) and the Leyland National (1972-85). In respect of the Leyland Nationals when I lived in Aylesbury you would often hear anecdotally the London Country drivers saying if you kicked the rear engine side panels it'd stop working.

This is the location today (Google Streetview) - the Trinkhalle? (now a record store) seen here can be seen through the bus windows.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Fairly sure the unidentified engine is 012 063-4, it's certainly an 012 class, five wheel tender and rubber bellows are a give away and the checksum digit looks like a 4 and the last loco digit looks like a 3 or 8. The only two engines that match that criteria are 058-4 and 063-4 both Bw Rheine engines, certainly 063-4.

I'd go along with 012 063-4 as a year earlier 012 058-4 was retired from service on 12/04/1973 or 08/05/1973 (depending upon which record is correct) then transferred to AW Braunschweig on 20/04/1975. 012 058-4 was delivered to Bw Rheine on 12/12/1972.

However 012 063-4 has a repair patch on the tender (from post #3,045)



Which is not apparent on the tender in post #3,081 (however lighting and distance could be hiding it).

 

[mickoo]

It is 012 063-4, it's come off the shed, run up to the throat and backed onto Tims train is my best guess.

Note the oil line along the firebox, 063-4 has a distinct kink in it, now I haven't checked all my 012 photos, but of the few hundred I have, I've not seen any others with a kink exactly like that, plus in this case, same day, same photographer, too coincidental not to be the same engine.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Didn't spot the kink - too absorbed with the tender.

As you say - same day, same photographer - all too coincidental.

 

[mickoo]

Didn't spot the kink - too absorbed with the tender.

As you say - same day, same photographer - all too coincidental.

One thing I'd not noticed before (and my 012 anorak is reasonably large) is that the DB biscuit and number are not centred on the cab side on the drivers side, but are on the firemans side; there's probably something inside blocking access to the nuts on the plate studs.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

One thing I'd not noticed before (and my 012 anorak is reasonably large) is that the DB biscuit and number are not centred on the cab side on the drivers side, but are on the firemans side; there's probably something inside blocking access to the nuts on the plate studs.

Could be the Indusi control box relocated or something to do with the conversion to oil.

 

[mickoo]

Could be the Indusi control box relocated or something to do with the conversion to oil.

Well it doesn't affect all engines as 066-7 is still centred in late 73, just one of those minutia's

 

[daifly]

Castle 5091 Cleeve Abbey in Old Oak Common Yard on 18th June 1961. This has previously been in two 1963 photos. It was allocated to Llandore in July 1958

Brian
Please forgive the pedantry but it’s Landore not Llandore.
Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Well it doesn't affect all engines as 066-7 is still centred in late 73, just one of those minutia's

Unless this sequence of photos taken during the rebuild of 012 104-6 gives you a clue if you know what you're looking for. Faszination Dampf e.V. you have to scroll down a bit.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin and Graham. Thanks for yours and the discussion about GWR allocations. Added to notes.

Mick - that's a lovely bit of sleuthing about the unidentified loco, and thanks for your confirmation, Dave. An edit of the write ups will occur forthwith. I'd not noticed the offset number either so thanks for raising that and to Dave for further comment.

Dave - thanks for yours re the Mercedes bus and location. Duly added to the write up and the photo will appear in the index to all these German photos which I'm writing as descriptions and corrections come in.

Dave of the flying variety - thanks for advising. I don't know where the "double L" came from but it will be corrected.

Back to Old Oak Common Roundhouse and 61XX 6169 on 18th June 1961. It had been a Southall engine but was then allocated to Old Oak in November 1960 which probably coincided with the conversion of local services around London to DMUs. After Old Oak it went to Radyr in May 1964 and finally Worcester a month later where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). It was in store at Worcester from November 1965 until January 1966 and observed at Buttigieg's, Newport, in March 1966. (WHTS). BR Database report it as scrapped in February 1966. The Railway Observer reported it still in store at Worcester on 26th January 1966 so a scrapping date of a month or so later seems more likely.




K3 61847 on shed at Hull Dairycoates on 11th June 1961. This had been allocated to Hull since September 1951 and was withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was seen in Doncaster Works yard by the Railway Observer in February 1963 which suggests a scrapping date at Doncaster shortly thereafter.



Standard Class 3 2-6-0 77001 in the yard at Hull Dairycoates on 11th June 1961. I was hoping that Six Bells Junction would give more information about the Reckitt's Sunshine Express around that date but I can find no reference in 1960, 61 or 62. Any evidence to help identify the train and date will be appreciated. It was allocated to Hull Dairycoates in July 1959, Thornaby in May 1962, Stourton in October 1963, Farnley Junction January 1964, Manningham December 1964, back to Hull Dairycoates in December 1965 and finally Goole on 1st January 1966 where it was withdrawn immediately on arrival. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh, in February the same year. (BR Database).



Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 and a departure from the locomotive fare so far. Three photos of 0-10-0T 094 640-0. I believe this is probably coal fired. The location is Emden.







Still with Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an unidentified 2-10-0 at Emden.

The engine shrouded in steam is an oil burner and most likely an 043 looking at what can be gleaned from the front end.







Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

I guess the Sunshine Express was a chartered train for a Reckitt employees outing, perhaps a "wakes week" event.

Wakes week - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mickoo]

It's Emden (note cranes in background of first and fourth photo from the port) and the Br94 is coal fired, only three classes were converted to oil, 01.10, 41 and 44.

The engine shrouded in steam is an oil burner and most likely an 043 looking at what can be gleaned from the front end.

 

[Roger Pound]

I believe that the Br94's remained coal fired. The group of locos which came under Br94 were gathered from various State systems, including Prussian, Wurttemberg and Saxon Railways. From the location I would guess that the loco featured is a T16 from the former KPEV. Open to the usual corrections from the better informed, of course.

Roger.

 

[michael080]

I believe that the Br94's remained coal fired. The group of locos which came under Br94 were gathered from various State systems, including Prussian, Wurttemberg and Saxon Railways. From the location I would guess that the loco featured is a T16 from the former KPEV. Open to the usual corrections from the better informed, of course.

There isn't much to add. The 94 class assembled all 0-10-0 engines that were initially Länderbahn engines taken over by the Reichsbahn.
I believe that there were eastern German oil burning class 94 engines, but I can't find a reference.
This class was very popular to push freight wagons over the marshalling hump. It could provide massive power at very low speed.
Interesting that the engine has lost its DB-emblem and that it still carries the cover over the coal bunker.

 

[Genghis]

The loss of the DB plate reminds me that after my first trip there in 1972 my friends and I wrote to DB asking if it would be possible to buy the plate from disused engines. They responded by sending half a dozen post free to us. I still have it in the workroom.

Steam around Gloucester finished in 1966 when I was 12 so my memories are limited. That first trip to Germany was a real eye opener with express passenger, heavy freight and local shunting operations in the hands of mostly 001, 012, 042, 043, 044, 05x and 094. But we also saw 064 and 065. I missed the 03 and most regrettably the 038 having gotten on the wrong train in Munich. My favourites at the time were the 042 (well proportioned) and 094 (old) but the memory that abides most is a ride in the first coach behind a very hard working 001 which induced a significant oscillation in the vehicle. Also had to explain in broken German to the East German Border Guards that we had no plan to go beyond Hof. Happy Days!

Keep the photos coming!
Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I believe that there were eastern German oil burning class 94 engines, but I can't find a reference.

That's a new one on me .

I knew the DR (DDR) had oil fired Br 95s (Br 95.0). I've had a quick look at the DR (DDR) Bestand 1970 in dampflokomotivearchive and cannot see any Br 94.0 (xx.0 denoting oil firing) - but there are Br 94.1 (pr. T16.1) and 94.2 (sächs. XI HT) coal burners.

However, it's not inconceivable Raw Meiningen may have experimented with an oil burning Br 94 and details never made public.