Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

On a second look the first carriage is a brake from the ex-SECR 1921 boat train stock. This would confirm it is a boat train.

Nice to see some pictures of the Southern proper (in my view - Eastern and Central sections.

 

[Wagonman]

Brixton has a bridge like that though it's some 35 years since I used the station so can't be sure of the details. Anyone with a better memory/photos?

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

you are spoiling us with all of these great Southern themed photos - Keep them coming please.

I thought that this is possibly St Johns with the bridge over going to Lewisham off to the left, the scene of the terrible 4th December 1957 accident, but no, St Johns is two island platforms so there would be no fencing as seen here on the left and the 'main line' curves round to the right. I'll have another think!!

kind regards

Mike

 

[Martin Shaw]

It's definitely Brixton, Shepherds Lane signal box was just to the north of the junction and was one of my "haunts". Notice lying in the 4 foot in front of the engine troughing lids with a new route under the platform copes which suggest there might be some resignalling going on, also on the lampost a SR target rather than a BR totem which all suggest 50s. I'll have a look at some other info that might pin it down a bit. Actually thinking about it you wouldn't have a steam boat train post 1961 anyway.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I think, as @Martin has alluded to, as soon as the Kent Coast electrification scheme was energised in 1961 steam all but disappeared.

Daytime boat trains were formed of electric units (4-CEP and 4-BEP) leaving the Golden Arrow and Night Ferry electric loco hauled.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for further thoughts and suggestions - particularly Martin and Dave who have nailed it!

This one is the last of the Southern for a bit and is entitled - we now know erroneously - as "C Class 0-6-0. 1957. Location unknown believed to be Bricklayers Arms." Well, now we know different, and it's Cannon Street probably on the same day as the photo of Schools 30919. Furthermore we can surmise that it's on empty stock. The number can just be made out to be C Class 31583. For most of 1957 it belonged to Stewarts Lane having been transferred there in the April and was withdrawn in July 1961 (SLS) being scrapped in the week ending 26th August 1961 at Ashford. (RO).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

A little bit more on Brixton date wise, I can pin it down to "not later than" but regrettably not more accurately. Above the rear of the third coach is a distant semaphore arm with a stop arm above it. There was also another distant arm to the left of the one visible. This is Brixton Junction's up branch home with Shepherds Lane up distants, where the up line split into two running lines. There was a comparable structure on the up main hidden round the curve. The semaphore signalling was decommissioned on the 8/3/59 with the commissioning of the new Shepherds Lane box and MAS in the area as part of phase 1 of the Kent Coast electrification scheme. Therefore the picture predates March 59.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Furthermore we can surmise that it's on empty stock.

Or it could be any of these headcodes for a local train to station on a non-electrified route using any of the routes below:

However, as you say, the likelihood it is an ECS working to Charing Cross, Holborn, London Bridge, Bricklayers' Arms or to stabling sidings such as New Cross. We will never know!

London Bridge mentioned below also includes trains starting from Cannon Street, Holborn or Charing Cross and passing through London Bridge.

London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Addiscombe.

London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Tonbridge or Reading via East Croydon and Redhill or London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Gillingham, Faversham, Ramsgate or Dover via Chislehurst Loop and Chatham.

London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Ramsgate via Tonbridge and Canterbury West or London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Tonbridge or Reading via East Croydon and Redhill.

London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Eastbourne or Hastings via Quarry line - very unlikely - or London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Hastings via Chislehurst and Tunbridge Wells Central.

London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Dover, Ramsgate or Hastings via Chislehurst, Swanley, Otford and Sevenoaks.

To London Midland Region via West London line - this would be a rather convoluted route!

All stations to Aldershot Government Sidings - unlikely.

 

[Martin Shaw]

If it is ECS then the most likely destination is Rotherhithe Road, or possibly Bellingham, (both wrong see below) all of Dave's possibilities are just as likely. C. Perhaps less common a Bulleid brake in Crimson/Cream livery, not of course unknown but the southern were pretty quick to paint coaching stock green after they had to succumb to dictates from the Kremlin.

The carriage number appears to be 3946 which fits, a semi open brake third it was built by Eastleigh in 49/50 for eastern division services and was made up in Set 264 which survived the Kent Coast and was transferred to the Western division in Feb 61. with some alteration to constituent vehicles. From new to Jun 1959 the set was used on Ramsgate - London services and I have tracked down the carriage working notice for 1954.

Berth Ramsgate 6.53!
7.27! Herne Bay 8.20
9.56 Cannon St 10.08!
via Ludgate H
10.55! Stewarts Lane 4.35!
via Ludgate H
5.48! Cannon St 6.16
8.22 Ramsgate Berth

On Sats the set was strengthend by 3 corr 3rds and worked the 9.25 ex Ramsgate to Victoria and the 4.06 Vic spending the middle of the day in sidings at Victoria Eastern, almost certainly the sidings to the east of Grosvenor bank. One daily return trip doesn't sound much like sweating the assets, and even by the period it seems under utilised but I suspect not uncommon. Therefore the pic was taken on a weekday morning at or approx 10.08 between 1950 and 1958. Best I can do from 60 years on.

Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Would the loco run around it's train at Ludgate Hill or would the original train engine still be attached to haul the ECS to Stewarts Lane via Loughborough Junction and Brixton? Thereby servicing the original train loco as well as the coaching stock.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I suspect the answer is both, depending, however I'm mindful that most services to/from Ramsgate had B Arms or Ramsgate locos and therefore I suspect the carriage working and loco working diagrams were completely separate. I guess the info is out there somewhere if you were sufficiently interested. Anything more on my part would be a guess at best.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

An excellent bit of refining the available data there, Martin and Dave. Thank you - it'll all be added to the info attached to each photo.

Something entirely different now, a long way up country - in fact in a foreign land...... The title is "Buchanan Street. 1955." I'll certainly need some help with this set as I never visited the railways in Scotland and know next to nothing about the locomotives. However the evidence for this one can be gathered reasonably easily. It's also a very satisfying picture, although a shame that the front buffer is cut off. This is 55235, as I understand it an ex- Caledonian Railway 439 Class 0-4-4 tank, complete with crew. It was at Corkerhill at the time of the photo and had been there since at least 1948 and was withdrawn in May 1961. (SLS and BR Database). According to BR Database it was scrapped in August 1961 although the location is not stated and WHTS report it was at BR Carriage and Wagon Works, Heatheryknowe, Coatbridge although verification is required. Regrettably this negative is covered in fine scratches and I've found it difficult to remove them, although fortunately at normal levels of magnification they don't show too badly.



Then there's also that strange accoutrement growing out of the chimney. I took the almost unprecedented action of painting it out, although the "official" version will remain the honest one. So here's the modified scan.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

I was going to say, don't be afraid to touch photos up and remove offending objects, but you have already dunnit. Best foot forward for publication and all that. Pre-digital, we used typists white paint provided the back ground was white. I mixed greys using fast-drying cellulose. Even the best railway photographers occasionally failed to spot what would happen when a loco passed a particular spot.

Scotland's railways in the mid 1950's should throw up some interesting photos.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian

It's not Buchanan St, the curving platforms and the removed lamp standard immediately identify as St Enoch and it's extremely unlikely that a Corkerhill 0-4-4 would have been seen at the former location, certainly by BR days, it seemed to have been the preserve of Black 5s on Stirling & Perth workings and A4s on the 3hr Aberdeen services. Interestingly the loco whilst retaining it's graceful lum is bereft of both Westinghouse and steam heat bags whcih suggests high summer, a somewhat limited period in Scotland essentially 1st July to the 30th September for the railway. The presence of dogs around the perimeter of the smokebox door is unusual, presumably an LMS addition but I can't find to hand any evidence to support this or indeed how common it was.

That the bunkers sides were inset provides a handy seat if the location permits, certainly to be enjoyed on a summers day.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Not that I could ever have doubted you, Martin , but I had a look on YouTube and there are short films about both stations. It is absolutely obvious from the lamps alone that this is St Enoch as you propose. Thanks again for putting the record straight.

Told you that my knowledge of Scottish railways is somewhere between slim and nothing. Some would say, with a degree of justification, to miss the "Scottish" out of that statement. The corrective info you've provided throughout this continuing set of photos has been immensely valuable.

Brian

 

[LarryG]

The smokebox door dogs were common enough on ex.Caley engines, but I haven't come across them on the 4-4-0's.

 

[oldravendale]

There's another Caley 0-4-4T coming up in a few pictures time, No 55240, and that also has smokebox door dogs.

Brian

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

It certainly is StEnoch station. You can see the loco shed just behind the engine. Closed to locomotives by this time but still used for stock storage. The turntable was also still there but not used very much, most locos which needed turning quickly went round the triangle to Saltmarket junction.

Worth pointing out that St Enoch station was the first public building in Scotland to be lit by electric light.

Ian.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Larry, for your confidence that I'll actually recognise "offending objects". For artistic reasons you are quite correct but for pure historical accuracy it's good to see the warts. In this case the lamp standard coming out of the chimney (although there is one in the background) is the ultimate confirmation of the location. If the opportunity arises I'll do as I have here and supply two versions.

Thanks for your double confirmation, Ian.

I spoke to Tim. He's absolutely blown way by the information these photos have brought forward. He's very grateful and apologises for the failures in his information. His notes for these early photos are sketchy to say the least.

Anyway, on to "Motherwell MPD. August 1955." This is WD 2-10-0 90756. That's about the only thing that's certain. SLS reports this as being at Motherwell from June 1950 and the April/May 1957 Locoshed Book confirms this allocation. There can be no certainty but it appears that a Motherwell allocation in 1955 seems reasonable. In any event 90756 was withdrawn at the end of 1962 (SLS) and was scrapped on an unknown date at Darlington Works (BR Database) where WHTS report it as having been seen on 9th November 1963.



And following my decision to do a bit of "special editing" on the previous photo and Larry's kind support I've applied the same process to this one, so here's the "modified" version, sans telegraph pole/lighting gantry.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Wow being spoilt here. Motherwells 2-10-0s and 2-8-0s, I think Polmadie had some as well, were used on the General Terminus to Ravenscraig ore trains and the late WAC Smith took a superb study of two of the latter lifting a train past Scotland Street. considering there were 28 33ton hopper wagons in each train, nearl a 1000 tons, the sight and sound must have been magnificent. They reversed at Muirhouse Junction where engines were changed and the buffer stops of the engine spur are there to this day amidst the grass, weeds and saplings that Network Rail are pursuing as a second business opportunity.

I agree with Larry, selective retouching is perfectly acceptable, so long as it is recorded as such, there is no doubt that lamp post growing out of a dome detracts from the image.

The corrective info you've provided throughout this continuing set of photos has been immensely valuable.

This is very kind of you to mention. As most of you have guessed I have a broad interest in railways, modelling is a part although I fall into the camp that Cyril Freezer described as average, I would allow that delving into the history is perhaps my main interest. Without sounding too pompous and philosophical, oral history, for that's really what this is, as an addition to Tim's photographs, is important and should be recorded. Consider this, in another 40 or so years there will be no one remaining who witnessed the Kent Coast electrification, or the Clyde electrification schemes which were contemporaneous, the misappropriation and recasting of fiction as fact which occurs daily will proliferate and I would like to think I might have played a small part in remembering it correctly. I was right it is a bit pompous, sorry.
Best wishes
Martin