Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

Looking at the Siphon J pictured at Stranraer, I was struck by the distance between the wheelsets in each bogie. The Diagram O31 Siphons J were produced with seven foot wheelbase bogies, and it seemed to me that the one pictured was carried on bogies of greater length. A bit more research required...

I don't have either Jack Slinn's original work on the Siphon family or John Lewis' more recent treatise on the subject. The information available to me does, however, indicate that a further ten Siphons J were built to a different diagram, O40, and completed in 1934. There appears to have been a six inch difference between the two diagrams' wheelbases, which suggests to me that the O40s were fitted with a different design of bogie, presumably one of the nine foot wheelbase types – which is what I think I can see beneath the one at Stranraer. This also appears to be confirmed by the data in Longworth, in which the O40 design is illustrated with a 9' 0" wheelbase plate bogie.

Incidentally, I was wrong about the number of O31s built: one lot of 8 and one lot of 27, making 35 in total not 32.

No doubt someone having more than my rudimentary knowledge of GW Brown vehicles will correct me if I've got this wrong.

 

[oldravendale]

Regarding Stranraer... Thank you for kicking off the discussion about the bogie van, Paul @hrmspaul . Then Tim @timbowales , Adam @AJC , John @John Palmer and Ben @readingtype for endeavouring to make a definite description. We're possibly not there yet but I sense circling the answer.

This is an unidentified Brush Type 2 loco, possibly better known as a Class 31 clearly in green with body side bands at base and middle and yellow front end assisting what I believe to be a B1 but the location and date are unknown. I guess the "interim" livery on the diesel may help to refine the date a bit.



I believe this to be at Harringay and shows an unidentified A1 pacific and at an unknown date.



A4 60034 Lord Farringdon last seen in post #2445 here at Harringay but with no date. Considering the location and the allocation record we can at least have a stab at the latest date which we may be able to attribute to this photo. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross from April 1948 and moved to New England in June 1963 before going to St Margarets in November the same year. According to SLS it was at Darlington Works for a Heavy Intermediate from 11th January - 24th April 1965. and was allocated to Aberdeen Ferryhill in June 1964 as its final shed for use on the Aberdeen - Glasgow trains and withdrawn in August 1966. (SLS). However the SLS also says it was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows, North Blyth, in October 1965. I think this is a typo and should read October 1966.



That photo of Lord Farringdon completes the publication on WT of very nearly four thousand images, mostly of railway subjects but a few diversions in to cars, traction engines and ships. For a file described as “mostly rubbish” it’s been an eye opener. I’ve noted where I printed a few of these images for Tim although most I printed are in the photos yet to come up – an out of sequence series of negatives which Tim removed from complete sets. I know these have never been properly recorded until now which is one reason I am so delighted with all the extra information which flows from the WT brains. We have together built up a mine of information for which I am eternally grateful.

Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

B17 61652 Darlington at Kings Cross in November 1957. The SLS report the loco as allocated to Colwick at least from October 1946. BR Database then show it as allocated to Cambridge in December 1950 and withdrawn in September 1959. Yeadons advise it was scrapped at Doncaster Works and WHTS that it was seen there in November 1959 although BR Database give a scrapping date of September 1959.

View attachment 237402












Brian

The RCTS green book says 61652 was 'withdrawn' 9/59, so maybe BR Database has it wrong way round, this fits with Yeadon's sighting 10/59 at Doncaster ?
Col.

 

[timbowales]

Looking at the Siphon J pictured at Stranraer, I was struck by the distance between the wheelsets in each bogie. The Diagram O31 Siphons J were produced with seven foot wheelbase bogies, and it seemed to me that the one pictured was carried on bogies of greater length. A bit more research required...

I don't have either Jack Slinn's original work on the Siphon family or John Lewis' more recent treatise on the subject. The information available to me does, however, indicate that a further ten Siphons J were built to a different diagram, O40, and completed in 1934. There appears to have been a six inch difference between the two diagrams' wheelbases, which suggests to me that the O40s were fitted with a different design of bogie, presumably one of the nine foot wheelbase types – which is what I think I can see beneath the one at Stranraer. This also appears to be confirmed by the data in Longworth, in which the O40 design is illustrated with a 9' 0" wheelbase plate bogie.

Incidentally, I was wrong about the number of O31s built: one lot of 8 and one lot of 27, making 35 in total not 32.

No doubt someone having more than my rudimentary knowledge of GW Brown vehicles will correct me if I've got this wrong.

Right then, I've got Slinn & Clarke open as I type this.
9' American bogies were used under Dia O31 Lot 1409 when built but all had 7' bogies by the end of 1932
9' pressed steel bogies were fitted under Dia O40 when built. There were only 10 of these so one turning up in SW Scotland is very rare.
I wonder, given that these were heavily insulated and provided with ice boxes, could it have been being used for some kind of dairy product coming over fron Ireland?

 

[Dave Holt]

Another possibility is that the B1 is providing steam heat for a diesel with a faulty boiler? Not uncommon in the early days of dieselisation. The track looks frosty and the trees bare, so presumably the photo was taken in the winter months.
Dave.

 

[76043]

Thank you Brian for four thousand images so far. I had no idea it was that many, bringing to light lots of information about about the workings of BR in this period. My memorable favourite is the shot of the one in a half a million Wagons that BR built, the standard van that was unique.

Thanks again!
Tony

 

[Rob R]

Right then, I've got Slinn & Clarke open as I type this.
9' American bogies were used under Dia O31 Lot 1409 when built but all had 7' bogies by the end of 1932
9' pressed steel bogies were fitted under Dia O40 when built. There were only 10 of these so one turning up in SW Scotland is very rare.
I wonder, given that these were heavily insulated and provided with ice boxes, could it have been being used for some kind of dairy product coming over fron Ireland?

There was a large dairy on the Portpatrick branch which kept a short stub open until quite late and is now home to the Seriously Strong Cheddar, but relocated to the edge of Stranraer, though still adjacent to the remains of the Portpatrick branch.
More cheese Gromit?

 

[John Palmer]

Right then, I've got Slinn & Clarke open as I type this.
9' American bogies were used under Dia O31 Lot 1409 when built but all had 7' bogies by the end of 1932
9' pressed steel bogies were fitted under Dia O40 when built. There were only 10 of these so one turning up in SW Scotland is very rare.
I wonder, given that these were heavily insulated and provided with ice boxes, could it have been being used for some kind of dairy product coming over fron Ireland?

Interesting and a little surprising!

Use of both the 7' 0” wheelbase and 9' 0” wheelbase 'heavy plate' type bogies seems to have been well established from before the 1929-30 period in which the Lot 1409 Siphons J were built, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why this first batch were initially constructed with 'American' equalised bogies, only for these to be replaced with seven footers within the first three years of their life.

I had thought it likely that the O40s would have received the 'heavy plate' type bogies when built between October 1932 and April 1934, so their mounting from the outset on the 9' 0” wheelbase pressed steel design of bogie came as a surprise. In “Great Western Coaches : 1890-1954” Michael Harris wrote that “After 1932” the pressed steel design “was standardised for virtually all new construction”, but on the same page has a drawing of bogie types annotated to the effect that the pressed steel type shown was employed from “1935-54”, which rather clouds the issue as to its introduction date.

However one looks at it, it seems that O40 Siphons J must have been amongst the very first vehicles to have been mounted on the then-new pressed steel design of bogie.

 

[LarryG]

Regarding GWR bogies, the GWR went through phases. Fishbelly, 8' and 9' American, and 9' Plate bogies were the norm before until 7' 0" bogies took over around 1925 on whatever was being built. 9' Plate were then reserved for heavier coaches until the Pressed Steel bogie came into fashion. Within each type (excluding Fishbelly and American) were deep frame, shallow frame, short spring, long spring, short step, long step variants. All good fun for the modeller.

 

[Pete_S]

Michael Harris wrote that “After 1932” the pressed steel design “was standardised for virtually all new construction”, but on the same page has a drawing of bogie types annotated to the effect that the pressed steel type shown was employed from “1935-54”, which rather clouds the issue as to its introduction date.

And


There's also 101426 for a Heavy Single Bolster version dated September 1933.

Swindon Standardisation strikes again!

 

[ovener]

Thank you Brian for your labours. I can only imagine how much time it's taken especially with post-processing and adding the information. Tim had a good eye for a pleasing photo, and the incredible hive mind of WT adds so much extra detail. I don't remember any steam from my childhood as we didn't live near a railway and were overseas when I would have been old enough to remember at least the very end of it. Very much appreciated.
Richard

 

[John Palmer]

View attachment 237495

And

View attachment 237496
There's also 101426 for a Heavy Single Bolster version dated September 1933.

Swindon Standardisation strikes again!

Thanks - that neatly resolves my doubts about the introduction date for the pressed steel bogies.

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,
So many of Tims pictures brought back many happy memories, some forgotten ones too, for this aged enthusiast. I thank you sincerely for the time and considerable effort that you have put in to making this work available to us all on WT.
Kind regards,
Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

That's a useful bit of info, Col @Eastsidepilot . Now added to the file so many thanks.

Also Tim @timbowales, Rob @Rob R, John @John Palmer, Larry @LarryG and Pete @Pete_S. Thank you all for so much information stimulated by that wagon at Stranraer.

Then Dave @Dave Holt - you are, of course quite correcr and that's something I'd not considered, but it's a worthwhile comment to add to the photo.

Then Tony @76043, Roger @Roger Pound and so many others who have expressed their interest at various exhibitions. Your enthusiasm for the continuation of the thread is much appreciated but, as far as I'm concerned, it remains a labour of love.

There will follow around 500 (actually 485) more black and white photos which include the majority of the pictures Tim asked me to print for him before he died. I was, of course, happy to do so. Against some of the original brief descriptions upon which the commentary is based you’ll find the magic word “Approved” or “Printing Copy”. Tim was a hard task master and wouldn’t accept anything other than perfect – in his opinion – and most went through three or four iterations. However I have very limited information about most of them. The negatives inevitably include many which are less than perfect but this series probably includes the finest of Tim’s work as well as the inevitable failures. It will be quite obvious where I have limited data so help to fill the gaps will always be appreciated and acknowledged. Neither is this the end of Tim’s photos. We’ve not even started the colour images and I’ve not calculated how many of those there are...

Condensing 57XX 0-6-0PT 9710 possibly at Acton on 4th October 1962. The home shed was probably always Old Oak Common – it had certainly been allocated there since at least 1947. (BR Database). Withdrawal followed in October 1964 (SLS) and it was seen on 19th November 1964 at Cox and Danks, Park Royal (WHTS) and was scrapped in January 1965 (BR Database). Of interest is that the SLS report the loco at Caerphilly Works Erecting Shop on 29th October 1961. Other small engines which could be considered “local” to Old Oak and unlikely to travel so far yet present at Caerphilly at the same time were 6115 of Slough and 6145 and 9420 of Old Oak.



Another showing 9710 but here with an unidentified 94XX pannier tank at Acton on 4th October 1962.



A3 60110 Robert the Devil at Hornsey in July 1961. It had been allocated to Kings Cross in July 1957 and was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It entered Doncaster Works on 11th June 1963 where it was cut up in the same month. (Yeadons and WHTS). This loco was previously in posts #3022 and #4052.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

9710 has previously been reported as being overhauled at Caerphilly -Page 58 of Brian Haresnape's "Collett & Hawkesworth Locomotives" has a pic of 9710 at Cardiff Canton after having been overhauled at Caerphilly in Feb 1962. Having produced the condensing kit conversion for the Minerva 8750 I have a soft spot for this sub-class of engines!