Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

To confirm, these three are taken at South Kenton. The buffer stop on the left, the colour light signal and the signal gantry in the background matches the position on the 1944-70 OS 1:2,500 map. The large building in the background behind the trees is the Denby House Laundry.

The last two apper to be taken within minutes of each other as the EMU on the right is approaching. Are all three consecutive frames on the negative strip? It shows how busy the WCML was and still is.

Finally for today, and also "South Kenton 1964" is one of the mainstays of secondary express services out of Euston, and looking quite tidy, a rebuilt Patriot, 45530 Sir Frank Ree.

The leading vehicle appears to be Gresley full brake.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for the confirmation of location, Dave, which I recognised from days past - well, decades past actually.

Without going back to the negs I can't actually check that those last two photos were taken after one another, although certainly they are all from the same folder so I'll guess that it's quite likely the times of the photos are close. The Jubilee is on the slow lines while the Patriot is on the fast so they could easily been close to one another in time.

Continuing a theme, but moving up the line a bit, these are "North Wembley 1964." I don't actually remember this view point and it's clearly not from the station platform but I have no reason to doubt the description.

This is a Standard 2 2-6-0 which I can just about read as 78029 with a van train on the up slow line. My interpretation of the number looks likely, as this loco was resident at Oswestry for a week at the end of May 1963 when it moved to Watford where it stayed until the beginning of April 1965. It then moved to Willesden where it stayed until withdrawal at the beginning of October the same year. It moved to Cashmore's Great Bridge where the final rites were performed in January 1966.



Looking every inch a Royal Scot from first impressions this is, in fact a Jubilee. It's one of the rebuilt pair, in this case 45735, Comet. The two rebuilt Jubilees worked turn and turn about with the Royal Scots as the mainstays of the West Coast expresses. The named and prestige trains were the preserve of the Coronations and Princesses although in 1964 the Princesses had gone and the Coronations were getting daily thinner on the ground. 45735 was a Willesden engine from January 1961 to October 1963 when it moved to Annesley, so the date attributed to this batch of photos must be questionable although it's entirely possible that the loco had been at Willesden for servicing and then, if in good enough condition, borrowed for a West Coast train. It was withdrawn from Annesley at the beginning of October 1964 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in January 1965.



Finally for today another Jubilee on another van train. This is 45670, Howard of Effingham which had been a Willesden engine at the end of 1960/beginning of 1961, moving to Rugby, then Derby in December 1963 before ending up at Stockport Edgeley in September 1964. We'd not have seen a Midland allocated loco on the West Coast very often which again suggests that this photo may be a bit earlier than Tim proposes. It was withdrawn at the end of October the same year scrapped at T W Ward Killamarsh in February 1965.



Tomorrow, just for a bit of variety, we'll move back to some shed scenes although we'll revisit the WCML shortly.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Continuing a theme, but moving up the line a bit, these are "North Wembley 1964." I don't actually remember this view point and it's clearly not from the station platform but I have no reason to doubt the description.

Can confirm it's North Wembley. The photos are taken from a footpath from the allotments south of North Wembley station and then behind houses to the works in the south.

North Wembley station is in the background in the first photo and the girder bridge in the background of the other two photos carries the GC link line from Neasden to join the GC/GW joint line at Ruislip Gardens. The houses in the background of the photos are on St John's Road.

 

[Dog Star]

Can confirm it's North Wembley. The photos are taken from a footpath from the allotments south of North Wembley station and then behind houses to the works in the south.

North Wembley station is in the background in the first photo and the girder bridge in the background of the other two photos carries the GC link line from Neasden to join the GC/GW joint line at Ruislip Gardens. The houses in the background of the photos are on St John's Road.

I have looked at Google satellite view and I could not find the allotments.

The GC line from Neasden towards the GW&GC Jt joins the joint immediately south of South Ruislip station whilst Ruislip Gardens is on the Central Line and one station to the north of South Ruislip (central line station).

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I have looked at Google satellite view and I could not find the allotments.

It looks like they've been built over since the 1944/70 OS map extract.

Rather than use Google satellite view I use the Change transparency of overlay: slider on the NSL website to see what has changed as the OS maps overlay satellite images.

 

[AJC]

It looks like they've been built over since the 1944/70 OS map extract.

Rather than use Google satellite view I use the Change transparency of overlay: slider on the NSL website to see what has changed as the OS maps overlay satellite images.

View attachment 143225

The allotments were clearly there in the immediate post-war period. They can be found on the excellent Layers of London site which includes the 1946 RAF aerial photographic survey. Unfortunately the georeferencing is a bit off here (I can probably get someone to look at that as this is a project at work) but the allotments are immediately apparent. This is not unusual - there were thousands of acres of allotment garden in the post-war period that had vanished by the '60s or in this case a bit later, if the buildings on the site are any guide at all: Google Maps (there's a bit of a gap in the OS surveys so far as I can tell from the maps available to me via Edina Digimap). Anyway, I agree with Dave and think that these pictures were taken from behind the works or houses - effectively the back lane of those houses - that front on to Lancelot Road.



Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Dave, Graham and Alan for enlightening me about the precise location. I remember seeing occasional freight trains going over that bridge...... Indeed, it was my first thought having seen Graham's post that building in that part of outer London was quite likely right up to the lineside in the past fifty years or so.

There's more lineside to come but for now back to shed scenes and Willesden. Once again "Willesden 1964" which I suspect may actually be a year or so earlier.

First one of the Stanier 2-6-0s, 42983. Not our common fare at Willesden although we could often find an example lurking somewhere. It was at Crewe South from 1942 until it moved to Bushbury in July 1964, thence to Oxley in April 1965 and finally Heaton Mersey in December 1965 where it lasted a whole six weeks before withdrawal in the middle of January 1966. It was scrapped the following April at T W Ward, Killamarsh.



This was quite an unusual visitor in 1964. It's SR N Class 31401 which moved from Brighton to Guildford at the beginning of 1964. It's carrying a 75A Brighton shed plate here so this provides further evidence that this set of photos in more likely at some time in 1963. Quite what a Brighton engine was doing so far from home is a matter for conjecture, although it may have made a trip to London and been "borrowed" for a cross London freight. Maybe those two discs give an indication but I'll wait until Yorkshire Dave is passing who'll give chapter and verse, no doubt. It is, of course, also possible that the transfer to Guildford had already taken place, as changing and even fitting of shed plates was a pretty hit and miss affair by 1964. It was withdrawn from Guildford in July 1965 and went to Cashmore's, Newport for disposal which occurred in October the same year.



Finally two photos of Coronation 46238 looking in good order and carrying a 12B shed plate. 12B was Carlisle Upperby by 1964 - it used to be Penrith. This loco has been the subject of a previous posting, #881, also from Willesden and possibly even on the same day, so I'll not repeat details here.




Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This was quite an unusual visitor in 1964. It's SR N Class 31401 which moved from Brighton to Guildford at the beginning of 1964. It's carrying a 75A Brighton shed plate here so this provides further evidence that this set of photos in more likely at some time in 1963. Quite what a Brighton engine was doing so far from home is a matter for conjecture, although it may have made a trip to London and been "borrowed" for a cross London freight. Maybe those two discs give an indication but I'll wait until Yorkshire Dave is passing who'll give chapter and verse, no doubt. It is, of course, also possible that the transfer to Guildford had already taken place, as changing and even fitting of shed plates was a pretty hit and miss affair by 1964. It was withdrawn from Guildford in July 1965 and went to Cashmore's, Newport for disposal which occurred in October the same year.

This is one of the last batch of 15 N class locos built by the Southern in 1932 (1400 - 1414) all of which were paired with the larger 4,000 gal turned in top tenders. According to Bradley in 1961 Brighton Ns 31400, 1, 2 and 3 started appearing on freight and van services including cross London transfer freights.

The headcode disc position indicates a West London line working to East Croydon via Crystal Palace Low Level.

As it came by this route I would assume the transfer to Guildford hadn't taken place at the time the photo was taken. Chances are the freight came up the Brighton main line via East Croydon, Norwood Junction, Clapham Junction and Kensington Olympia. A freight from Guildford/Feltham would use the route via Kew Bridge and not East Croydon.

 

[mickoo]

I'd have to question the North Wembley photos date, there are no signs of impending electrification which I would of thought would of been ripping through here at a great rate, given that the first electric train ran from Euston Nov 65.

OHLE was already erected at Watford in 64 and installed at South Kenton by Aug 64, maybe earlier, but not strung yet. OHLE structures or bases for structures went ahead of the masts quite early.

Personally I think the rebuilt Patriots and the two Jubilees were the dogs danglies visually, another project in the growing bucket list

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I'd have to question the North Wembley photos date, there are no signs of impending electrification which I would of thought would of been ripping through here at a great rate, given that the first electric train ran from Euston Nov 65.

OHLE was already erected at Watford in 64 and installed at South Kenton by Aug 64, maybe earlier, but not strung yet. OHLE structures or bases for structures went ahead of the masts quite early.

I'd agree. I've trawled t'interweb and photos exist of the OHLE erected at Watford Jct in 1964 as you say and also at Euston in the same year during the rebuilding.

I wonder if the photos were taken a year earlier in 1963 - where I have come across photos of the WCML in this area without OHLE.

 

[LarryG]

LMS 2983 is from the second batch with modified larger boiler, safety valves on the firebox and more rounded top to cylinders.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave. That explains an N at Willesden, although I have to say that I never saw one during multiple visits.

Mick and Dave. The evidence is building that these trackside photos, and probably those at Willesden Shed as well, are possibly a year or so earlier than suggested by Tim. We were gently edging in that direction but I reckon we have plenty of evidence now. As I lived close to the WCML I suppose I really should have remembered the overhead going in and the rebuilding of Euston, but I don't!

Larry. Thanks for the refinement of the detail on the 2-6-0.

We'll stay at Willesden for today, with another visitor. We'll now assume that these were taken in 1963 rather than 1964 although Tim's description is quite specific about this being in May 1964. However 1963 would make the presence of a V2 which would have previously been serviced at Neasden if off the ex GC main line more likely than 1964 and anyway 60871 was withdrawn in 1963! It may have come up to London on the erstwhile South Yorkshireman although that had been withdrawn as a named train by 1960. In fact a V2 on the GCR in 1963 would have been a great rarity as it had been transferred to the Midland Region by then and Black 5s and run down Royal Scots were the normal fare. In fact I wonder if this V2 had come to Willesden on a cross London freight from the ECML - unlikely power, perhaps, but stranger things were happening in the '60s. It is, however, carrying a reporting number (which I'm unable to read) on the top lamp iron which makes freight duty rather less likely. I think it quite likely that this is the V2 which appears in one of the shots in post #904.

60871 had been shedded on the GCR at both Leicester and Woodford Halse until 1955 but then went to Doncaster. It was at Kings Cross at the start of 1963, then in late January it was at New England. By June 1963 it had ended up at Doncaster again and was withdrawn from there in the September and was scrapped at Doncaster in the November, so perhaps May 1963 rather than 1964 is the appropriate date.

In the first shot it appears that "Turn Con Sat" is chalked on the tender. Can anyone make sense of that?



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Moving back to lineside on the WCML..... We'll now agree that these pictures are probably 1963 rather than 1964. The shed pictures are prior to September - we can be pretty certain about that - but I don't have a feel yet for those at South Kenton and North Wembley, except that 1963 is the likely year. We'll push on and see whether any further evidence can be unearthed which may give us a better lead.

These are all North Wembley and although Tim's title is 1964 we'll settle for the moment on 1963. I suggest that these are actually prior to the photos in post #922 - look at the electrical troughing. Is it possible that these are the first sign of the coming electrification? I suspect they are actually more likely associated with the inner suburban DC lines which are closest to the camera. The troughing in post #922 looks as though it's just been completed - there's really very little sign of any weathering. In the following shots it has just been roughly laid out ready for installation, I suggest.

Here's a flavour of what the WCML was all about in the late '50s and early '60s. Four photos all with different motive power. First is a Royal Scot - or is it a rebuilt Patriot or even a Jubilee on a down van train on the fast line. Regrettably the number is not readable. The absence of steps under the smokebox door and the space for a badge above the now non-existent nameplate suggests a Patriot to me but others more skilled at reading loco types may have a different opinion.



There's no argument about this one, though. A Flying Pig. I read this as 43007. In 1963/4 it was a Watford engine, moving to Willesden in April 1965. Finally it was at Crewe South in mid August 1967 being withdrawn from there in mid September and went to T W Ward, Killamarsh where it was scrapped in December.



Here's Fairburn 2-6-4T 42071 on a down local. It was at Willesden between 1962 and 1965. It ended up at Trafford Park in July 1965 from where it was withdrawn in the middle of March 1967. It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal and was scrapped in September.

This photo is probably out of order and a better fit for the earlier shots as the troughing is complete.



Finally for today Jubilee 45671, Prince Rupert on a down mixed freight. It had been a Warrington Dallam engine since 1961 and was withdrawn in November 1963 - another clue to the likely date of this batch of photos. It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed in January the following year.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

It's a Patriot they're easy to tell from a Scot from most angles, the rebuilt Jubilees not so when comparing with Patriots.

 

[LarryG]

All three LMS rebuilt 4-6-0 classes easy to identify really. As Mickoo says, it is a Rebuilt Patriot. Identifiable from its shallow cab side and bottom of valance in line with bottom of Tender. Rebuilt Jubilees had a deeper cab side with the valance correspondingly lower than the Tender side. All Scots had a deeper buffer plank and single window cab.

 

[mickoo]

On the Scots the middle cylinder cover is a different shape and larger with a more pronounced piston rod cover, there's also steps on there as well if I dimly recall, can't check references as not at home.

The Scots retained the Fowler cab which is a different style altogether as Larry notes, I didn't know about the rebuilt Jubilees having different cab sheets to the Patriots, everyday is a school day

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

These are all North Wembley and although Tim's title is 1964 we'll settle for the moment on 1963. I suggest that these are actually prior to the photos in post #922 - look at the electrical troughing. Is it possible that these are the first sign of the coming electrification? I suspect they are actually more likely associated with the inner suburban DC lines which are closest to the camera. The troughing in post #922 looks as though it's just been completed - there's really very little sign of any weathering. In the following shots it has just been roughly laid out ready for installation, I suggest.

I'll keep trawling for the WCML electrification dates from Watford to Euston. However, I wonder if the cranes in the background are involved with the rebuilding of Wembley Central Station as part of the elecrtification just visible in the background under the bridge.

 

[Dave Holt]

There's also a badge above the nameplate, which the two rebuilt Jubilees didn't have.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Mick and Larry for your confirmation of the unknown loco and for identifying the differences.

Mick and Dave. Yes, you'll see I'd picked up on the absence of steps and the badge - or lack of it!

Dave. I'd noticed the cranes and was trying to work out what they'd have been for. Your suggestion of the rebuilding of Wembley Central (in to a featureless, dark and gloomy cavern - but that's another story) seems most likely and not something I'd thought of.

Continuing with the WCML and same date. Those troughs still remain unfixed. These shots are also North Wembley. First is Britannia 70014 Iron Duke on the fast up line. It moved from Llandudno Junction to become a Willesden engine in mid May 1963 (during which time, coincidentally, I photographed it in the long shed at Willesden). By January 1965 it had moved to Crewe North and by August 1966 was at Carlisle Kingmoor from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1967. The final deed was done at T W Ward, Inverkeithing, in mid March 1968. That crane remains in the background.



Then an unidentified 2-6-4T, I believe of the Fairburn flavour on the slow lines with a suburban service and van heading up to Euston.



Next a Coronation which I read as 46228, Duchess of Rutland on the down fast line. This loco had been on Crewe North's allocation since 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1964 when it went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete in December. The crane is still there.



Finally for today another unidentified loco, in this case a Black 5 on the fast lines going up to Euston. This is probably a different date as the troughs are now complete.



Brian

 

[Arun]

Arun. I think you are correct about the Coronation tender behind the Jubilee. Also I'd never considered the benefits of cutting up one or two locos at works - it was always put down to the lack of available heads in works to do the job. However I can see the reasoning behind working out the value of the metal over the cost in time to do the work. I'd also never heard about the copper being returned to BR. If that was the case how did Woodham's manage to hold on to so many locos for so long? And did they have to pay a penalty to BR when locos were sold on to preservationists?

Brian

Brian - Page 91 of 'Steam for Scrap' published by Atlantic (1992) reports that," In the period 1964-5, it was a condition of sale that the copper firebox of a locomotive sold for scrap to a private yard was removed and returned to BR. Most went to Derby, where stripped of all 'foreign metal', they were melted down and reforged as copper wire to be strung from the catenaries along the West Coast Main Line".

Regarding selling locos to preservationists, it was a condition of sale that a loco could not be sold on by a scrapyard other than to another scrapyard with the same condition applying to the new buyer. However, I suspect that after 1969 or so with the prohibition on steam on BR metals in force, it was unlikely that BR was too concerned about what was happening to steam engines. After all by mid-1969, of the 12-15000 locos sold for scrap there was probably only the 200 or so left even vaguely intact at Barry in existence.
I think Barry held onto its locos because it was chopping up hundreds of mineral wagons on behalf of BR and I suspect it was easier and quicker to chop up ten 16ton mineral wagons than it was to chop up one 161ton Peppercorn A2 and tender [should such a beast ever have made it to S Wales!]