Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

More at Southall in 1963 to come, but first:

Arun. Thanks for your comments about another West Country mixed traffic loco!

Dave and Graham. Thanks for confirmation that the tanner oners were still extant when you were taking an interest. Thanks too, Dave, for some excellent investigative work. I'd not noted the inscriptions which indeed suggest a latish 1963 date. I also suspect, chaps, that judging by the shade of grey the number plate on Tim's photos of 5531 remains red. I appreciate your discussions via PMs but please use this thread to expand anything initiated by these photos.

Castle 7014, Caerhays Castle, now denuded of its 81A shedplate and demoted to 81C. In fact it had been away from Old Oak since 1962, to Oxley or St Blazey since early September 1963 and then Tyseley from July 1964 until withdrawn in early February 1965. In fact this loco was included in the boundary changes from the WR to the LMR on 30th December 1962 so the Oxley allocation, coupled with the sad state of the loco despite the continuing attachment of name and number plates suggests the Oxley allocation as the correct one and the concurrent Locoshed book confirms the allocation as 2B, Oxley. In any event the loco was withdrawn from Tyseley in early February 1965 and thence to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was broken up in May the same year.



This is 2884 class 2-8-0 3816 at Southall. At the time these were working turn and turn about with the 9Fs which is remarkable for a design dating from 1903, although this particular loco dates from 1940. In September 1963 this loco moved from Aberdare to Neath thence, in January 1965, to Severn Tunnel Junction where it was withdrawn in July 1965. It was gone by the end of the year at Birds, Long Marston. Quite how it got from Aberdare to Southall and then back again goodness only knows.



Finally, for this post, two photos of 4575 2-6-2T 5545. Before getting on to the history what is that wagon third behind the loco?

5545 came to Southall from Neyland at the end of November 1963. It actually moved in June 1964 to Gloucester Horton Road from where it was withdrawn at the end of November. It went to Buttigiegs, Newport where it was scrapped at the end of February 1965.




Brian

 

[AJC]

Another interesting selection. I've no idea what the third wagon behind 5545 is (at least, not yet). Some sort of experimental container flat perhaps? - there were a few different ones for various specialised traffics - I wonder whether @hrmspaul would know?

Adam

 

[simond]

That one caught my eye too. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen such a thing.

 

[Dog Star]

Dave (@daifly) posted a photo recently which showed the subject of one of Tim's photos somewhere in the High Wycomber area. I could not place the location and used WT-PM to discuss choices with Dave. Our conclusion as to the location was posted to this topic yesterday.

In response to Brian's (@oldravendale) request:-

Dave and Graham. I appreciate your discussions via PMs but please use this thread to expand anything initiated by these photos.

and with Dave's agreement, here is a precis of the discussion leading to the conclusion.

I think that the photo is not to the south of HWyc. station (no houses visble, were there sidings on both sides of the line? was there a double slip in that area?).

I think that the photo is not between the station and the north yard (no houses on the high ground, no viaduct under railway).

I think that the photo is not "just" north of the north yard... the line was straight for a couple of miles to West Wycombe.

So where is this location? My best guess is that the train is heading north and the location is to the south of Princes Risborough station, alongside the goods yard.

The caption is what was on the photo. I know no more. However, what can we deduce from the photo? You've almost certainly been through this process but here's my take.

There is clearly a Signal box nearby behind the photographer.
There is a very large number of telegraph wires on the poles on the right and also a light on the adjscent pole suggesting that we are close to a major centre. The 'sheds' on the left are not on a relief line but parked on a siding. There is another siding on the right hand side served by a double slip.
The signal on the left has a subsidiary 'calling on' arm.
The photo appears to have been taken from an overbridge or from up a signal.
It's tempting to think the right hand end of this.

I agree with you. There are two things which threw me...

1/ the curvature when I thought that the line was straight for a couple of miles - it is straight after the curve! I had to look at an OS map to realise that the curves through HWyc continued past the North yard.

2/ that subsidiary signal under the down starter - I have no recollection of pulling that board.

For those who have an interest in signalling matters, here is a link to a photo which shows High Wycombe North Signal Box, the box being about 200 yards south of the location from which an unknown photographer took the photo that was posted by Dave.

regards, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

@Dog Star @daifly - Out of interest I also had a long look at this and came to the conclusion based on the high viewpoint the photo was taken anywhere between these two points I've indicated on an extract of the 1961 revision of the 1930/1959 (1:10,560) survey.

 

[AJC]

@Dog Star @daifly - Out of interest I also had a long look at this and came to the conclusion based on the high viewpoint the photo was taken anywhere between these two points I've indicated on an extract of the 1961 revision of the 1930/1959 (1:10,560) survey.

View attachment 144311

Looking at a larger scale (25" to the mile) scale revision from 1968 I suggest that looking west from the bridge parapet seems most likely - note the double slip and count the sidings (the southernmost with with what I think are Italian ferry vans - the peaked roofs are quite distinctive).



Adam

 

[Dog Star]

Out of interest I also had a long look at this and came to the conclusion based on the high viewpoint the photo was taken anywhere between these two points I've indicated on an extract of the 1961 revision of the 1930/1959 (1:10,560) survey.

Interesting map extract - the railway infrastructure in your extract is circa 1900-06 as what is shown is the Wycombe Railway before the GW&GC Jt Rly got going.
{the previous sentence is not correct, see my post of later today}

Looking at a larger scale (25" to the mile) scale revision from 1968 I suggest that looking west from the bridge parapet seems most likely - note the double slip and count the sidings (the southernmost with with what I think are Italian ferry vans - the peaked roofs are quite distinctive).

Much better! At least this map shows what existed at some point post 1906 when the GW&GC Jt Rly opened towards Princes Risborough. The overbridge shown on this map extract is no longer there... I have no idea when the bridge was removed. The SRS signalling diagram (link given by Dave (@daifly) ) says that we ought to be able to see a ground signal to control movement from down main over a trailing crossover / double slip at the north end of the yard- that such is not visible in Dave's photo suggest that the placement of the slips on the signalling diagram is not as in reality (Adam's map).

regards, Graham[/user]

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks Adam, Is Digimap only available to institutions as it appears this service contains later editions of the OS 25 inch series.

 

[AJC]

Thanks Adam, Is Digimap only available to institutions as it appears this service contains later editions of the OS 25 inch series.

Hi Dave - yes, it's a perk of the job. It's mostly an educational tool (as you can see from the prices). That said, if there's ever anywhere you're interested in, shout. Some areas have this mapping as part of digital mapping collections overlaid with other, usually earlier maps. The excellent Know Your Place West is one example: Know Your Place, Layers of London has them for the Great London area*: Home | Layers of London | Recording the Layers of London's Rich Heritage and so on. I think it's a goal of NLS, but I'm not up to speed on that.

Adam

*Layers is a project developed at the Institute of Historical Research which is the location of the day job so I should declare that interest, excellent though it is.

 

[Dog Star]

Dave (@Yorkshire Dave), my apologies because the earlier comment is not correct, your extract does show the GW&GC Jt Rly. I have talked to Ian Pope (late of Cartography Department of Brookes University) and he has educated me in respect of the survey / revision activites of the OS, also a tap on the wrist for my mis-interpretation of symbology.

Adam (@AJC), Ian tells me that the most recent issue of 25" data was circa 1925 - 1930, that is there was no revision in 1968... what makes you think otherwise?


regards, Graham

 

[AJC]

Dave (@Yorkshire Dave), my apologies because the earlier comment is not correct, your extract does show the GW&GC Jt Rly. I have talked to Ian Pope (late of Cartography Department of Brookes University) and he has educated me in respect of the survey / revision activites of the OS, also a tap on the wrist for my mis-interpretation of symbology.

Adam (@AJC), Ian tells me that the most recent issue of 25" data was circa 1925 - 1930, that is there was no revision in 1968... what makes you think otherwise?


regards, Graham

Well it's a question of shorthand: that's certainly true of the county maps but not - as this is - the National Grid series. The revision date given on the sheet as supplied via Digimap to the scale of 1:2500 (which is roughly 25" to the mile - interchangeable for this purpose) showing, among other things, a ten pin bowling alley in the middle of High Wycombe which certainly wasn't there pre-war. More here: Ordnance survey mapping

Adam

 

[Dog Star]

showing, among other things, a ten pin bowling alley in the middle of High Wycombe which certainly wasn't there pre-war.

The bowling alley was above the VW service garage to the south west of the town centre - not in the most salubrious part of the town. I think that the VW place was called 'Needhams'.

 

[oldravendale]

A fascinating diversion Graham, Dave, Adam and Simon. I love it when a thread takes on a life of its own.

Interesting that there are no suggestions about that wagon. I've enlarged just that bit of the photo here



just in case it helps in identification. I'm now thinking it may be a load carried on a flat wagon and not a complete wagon at all.

These continue with Southall, 1963, and this next one may be the tail end of the train being lead by the 4575, but without searching out the relevant negs and checking for continuity I can't confirm. As I mentioned previously these need cataloguing properly which'll be done once I have the details to attach to them, but locating this neg among 4,000 is a task I'm unwilling to undertake at the moment. That looks to me like a Scammel mechanical Horse either on delivery or being transferred. Interesting that the brake van is not a Toad but looks to my unpracticed eye like an unfitted LMS version.



This is a 57XX pannier on a freight from the Brentford Branch. It's 9659, which had been at Old Oak Common but was a Slough engine until transferred to Southall at the end of March 1965. It lasted there a whole three months, being withdrawn in the middle of June, thence to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped at the end of October.



Finally for today 6959, Peatling Hall, the first of the Hawksworth Modified Halls. This had been at Old Oak Common too, before transfer to Southall in June 1964 although maybe the physical transfer was a little earlier as it's carrying an 81C shed plate in this photo. Despite the general grubbiness it's looking in pretty good order - the SLS records the loco being at "Swindon a Shop - Triangle" in October 1963 so maybe this photo is a bit later than the proposed date of 1963 as it looks as though it's been in for overhaul not too long ago. It was withdrawn at the end of December 1965 and went to Cashmore's, Newport, for scrapping which happened in April 1966.

Behind is 4993, Dalton Hall. This doesn't give us much help with dates as it was never a local engine. Around the date of the photo it was at St Philips Marsh until transferred to Swindon at the end of June 1963, then back to St Phillips Marsh at the end of November. At the end of June 1964 it went to Bristol Barrow Road and finally Severn Tunnel Junction in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn in February 1965. It's therefore likely to have come from Swindon or St Phillips Marsh at the time of the photo.



Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks for the enlargement of the mystery wagon, Brian. Yes, it's certainly a flat of some kind with containers. The construction doesn't look like anything I've seen that BR produced and the profusion of lettering makes me wonder whether it isn't a continental ferry vehicle. I haven't time to go through the diagram books exhaustively, but pp. 197-8 here: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf shows something plausible (with different containers, something the accompanying text notes was possible, diagram E222) which was German.

As for the rear of the Brentford branch train, that, for me, is a treat. The Scammell is a Scarab, the successor to the Mechanical Horse possibly newly repainted in BR yellow livery which came in for road vehicles at about that time - a close up of the door would demonstrate that one way or the other. The wagon seems to be a cartruck or Carfit: BR (GWR) Carfit A and that's really quite unusal.

The brake is indeed an LMS unfitted variety - note that the grey continues to the headstocks and buffers, an LMS livery feature that the Midland seemed keen to continue on brake vans and carried on with repaints into the '60s.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

These continue with Southall, 1963, and this next one may be the tail end of the train being lead by the 4575, but without searching out the relevant negs and checking for continuity I can't confirm. As I mentioned previously these need cataloguing properly which'll be done once I have the details to attach to them, but locating this neg among 4,000 is a task I'm unwilling to undertake at the moment. That looks to me like a Scammel mechanical Horse either on delivery or being transferred. Interesting that the brake van is not a Toad but looks to my unpracticed eye like an unfitted LMS version.

This is a 57XX pannier on a freight from the Brentford Branch. It's 9659, which had been at Old Oak Common but was a Slough engine until transferred to Southall at the end of March 1965. It lasted there a whole three months, being withdrawn in the middle of June, thence to T W Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped at the end of October.

Judging by the sleepers on the second and third photos these were taken on a frosty day. You can see where the sun has cleared the ice.

 

[LarryG]

Thank goodness for the men who went out and photographed every workings on BR while the system was still pretty well as it had always been. I have always liked the Hawksworth 'Hall' with front end support for the dangly bits. I believe Bachmann OO has now modified its modified Hall to be more representative of the real thing.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Interesting that there are no suggestions about that wagon. I've enlarged just that bit of the photo here

Thanks for the enlargement of the mystery wagon, Brian. Yes, it's certainly a flat of some kind with containers. The construction doesn't look like anything I've seen that BR produced and the profusion of lettering makes me wonder whether it isn't a continental ferry vehicle. I haven't time to go through the diagram books exhaustively, but pp. 197-8 here: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf shows something plausible (with different containers, something the accompanying text notes was possible, diagram E222) which was German.

After some digging it is a Btbs Fährboot-Behältertragwagen rather than a Lfs Fährbootwagen (below) as there are no apparent side walls or stake pockets.



The next image is a DB standard Behältertragwagen rather than a Fährboot variant and is from Trainini - Praxismagazin für Spurweite Z November 2019 issue.

In Tim's photo the containers (earlier versions than seen below) are loaded to suit the UK loading gauge and on the end you can only just make out the lettering.

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
from the allocations book:
6959 is at OOC until 24 Sep when it goes to Swindon. Back to OOC on 18Nov.
4993 is SPM until 17Jun to Swindon. Back to SPM 19 Nov.
I guess that the photo was taken after 19Nov63!
Simon

 

[AJC]

After some digging it is a Btbs Fährboot-Behältertragwagen rather than a Lfs Fährbootwagen (below) as there are no apparent side walls or stake pockets.

View attachment 144368

The next image is a DB standard Behältertragwagen rather than a Fährboot variant and is from Trainini - Praxismagazin für Spurweite Z November 2019 issue.

In Tim's photo the containers (earlier versions than seen below) are loaded to suit the UK loading gauge and on the end you can only just make out the lettering.

View attachment 144367

Excellent stuff! I wonder what was in the containers? I don't suppose it was the kind of thing that might end up on a Somerset branch line, but the temptation to model one is quite strong.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I don't suppose it was the kind of thing that might end up on a Somerset branch line, but the temptation to model one is quite strong.

Go for it - anything is possible - I unearthed this image years ago from t'interweb showing a solitary FS van at East Grinstead.