Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Marylebone I'm not a fan of or know much about, I only went there once so will bow to that one, Euston I'd forgotten about but think it was so small to not be capable of anything bigger than tank engines, I think Camden and Nine Elms always dispatched engines facing the country end, Waterloo like Camden I kind of dismissed as being too small, same for St Pancras, the other SR terminus I tend to wash over.....incorrectly.
I wish my memory was better but it tends to focus lately on things that really interest me, thanks for the memory jogging jaunt around the capital
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Castles and Kings are the only two GWR engines that grab my attention, the Hall and County are mood dependent, the rest simply leave me stone cold I'm afraid.. I do have a sudden urge to do a really detailed model of a Castle or King but there are no decent kits around as far as I know, a diversion for another thread, not here.
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Dave,
Have you forgotten Ewer Street, between Cannon Street and London Bridge which had a 55' turntable and was in use until 1961 when it was made redundant due to the Kent Coast Electrification scheme. Now used as a stabling point for EMUs
regards
Mike
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Indeed, I'd forgotten that one, BR held a new stock expo there in the 60's I think, one of the Bulleid diesels was there and if my memory holds up, one of the WCML AL electrics.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
There are undoubtedly theoretical benefits to any system using directly cam driven or corliss type valves as opposed to traditional slide or piston valves, events can be made much more precise and steam used more economically, and this is basically true of all steam engines, except perhaps the railway locomotive where the traditional enemies of poor maintenance, dirt, and entrenched attitudes in the staff usually prevented advanced thinking from being given a fair trial. It is noticeable that the trial of the later version of Caprotti valve gear in Black 5s was limited to two locomotives and I would venture was inconclusive which perhaps allowed Riddles a freer hand in trying it out again in DoG and the 30 Std 5s so equipped. I suspect by this time it was too late in the day for the I think marginal benefit to percolate beyond off hand thinking into a standardised practice. There is a practical limit to how much you can alter a cam and follower and still retain a functionality that's usable, which I think might be the limiting factor for cam driven valves.
For the record 44686/7 were only ever allocated to Longsight, and then very short periods at Monument Lane or Crewe South, Llandudno Jct and Southport. I doubt whether Driver Bloggs or Fireman Sam could tell much difference beyond a slightly crisper exhaust note from the chimney, engines have been lauded and condemned for that alone. It would be interesting to know whether Italian Railways benefited much from Signor Caprottis invention.
Martin
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Didn't spot that one tucked behind the old Grande Vitesse Depot.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Marylebone turntable was decomissioned as late at 2002 - I believe it was retained to turn the driving trailers of the class 115 DMUs when they operated the Aylesbury and High Wycombe services (with the occasional one to Banbury).
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
It was the British Railways Electrification Conference 1960 held at Battersea as in posts #379 and 380 of Brian's thread - An Unusual Collection.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
There have been earlier fittings of cam valves though the difference there I think is that they were Lentz and not Caprotti, I did know what the patent differences were but it evades me right now.
From memory, and I am sure there are others I've missed, LNER P2 2001/2002, LMS Crabs 42824/825 and the LNER D49 Hunt class. The Hunts seem to have run with it for the longest and I've not heard of anything untoward with them.
Overseas the only ones I'm familiar with are the SAR 16E and small batch of 19C's, I know there were trials on some US engines but not which ones without a lot of digging.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
No, there was another one at the depot on the viaduct between Waterloo East and Charing Cross they had to board over the turn table and skid/slide some of the stock into place. Dinner is served, I'll look later.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Didn't know about another one at the Ewer St depot. Be interesting to know more.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I'm getting mixed up, I didn't know about Ewer Street and it doesn't fit with my memory of the (a?) depot near Waterloo East, there was an aerial shot in Modern Railways and it was literally a stones throw from the river.
I did find this image of them jacking the Bulleid diesel into place and the location is given as Belvedere Road for the 1951 South Bank Exhibition which fits with my memory of a depot on the West side of the Charing Cross lines next to the river.
1951 is too early for WCML AL locos so I've mixed Battersea and this one up.
And another.
10201, 10202 & 10203 | 10201 Battersea 070751 RPC142
An interesting image showing Southern Region Diesel Electric 10201 on display at the South Bank Exhibition, London, 7/7/51. ©www.railphotoprints.co.uk - collection
railphotoprints.uk
The site doesn't look big enough to turn anything but apparently the turntable was removed in 1926 and a stub spur laid in so the jacking of 10201 was over the old turntable pit long filled in.
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Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Returning to the photo of the unidentified GWR 4-6-0 which may or may not running on shed, I have no reason to doubt Mick's conclusion... however I feel that Mick's comment about locos crossing running lines deserves consideration. There have been several photos in this topic which show the exit from OOC via the incline towards the overbridge by which an engine can get to the ECS sidings on the down side of the running lines. As far as I know there is no reason which would prevent a light engine from taking the ECS route and hence working towards Ranelagh Bridge yard.
OK - in the photo cited I think that the engine cannot reach the incline from its current position.
regards, Graham
OK - in the photo cited I think that the engine cannot reach the incline from its current position.
regards, Graham
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
I'm getting mixed up, I didn't know about Ewer Street and it doesn't fit with my memory of the (a?) depot near Waterloo East, there was an aerial shot in Modern Railways and it was literally a stones throw from the river.
I did find this image of them jacking the Bulleid diesel into place and the location is given as Belvedere Road for the 1951 South Bank Exhibition which fits with my memory of a depot on the West side of the Charing Cross lines next to the river.
1951 is too early for WCML AL locos so I've mixed Battersea and this one up.
And another.
The site doesn't look big enough to turn anything but apparently the turntable was removed in 1926 and a stub spur laid in so the jacking of 10201 was over the old turntable pit long filled in.10201, 10202 & 10203 | 10201 Battersea 070751 RPC142
An interesting image showing Southern Region Diesel Electric 10201 on display at the South Bank Exhibition, London, 7/7/51. ©www.railphotoprints.co.uk - collectionrailphotoprints.uk
Interesting as a turntable is present on a 1951 (or later) OS map.
Apologies Brian for this slight diversion around London.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Interesting, the net draws closer, your prod made me go and search again, seems I wasn't loosing it. The turntable is just off York Road/Sutton Walk, maybe it was never on Belevedere Road or that might have been where the access entrance was.
It looks like 10201 is definitively on the turntable you've found, maybe the turntable wasn't removed in 1926; the text wasn't that clear when it was removed, the surrounding text detailed events in 1925 and 1926 so I made a (poor) assumption. I'd read elsewhere that it was removed in 1951 as was the one at Ewer Street, both were noted as 50' tables.
This aerial image (copyright Alamy) is a good view of the site and clearly shows the spur and turntable location and covered roof over 10201.
And to close this rabbit hole off, a much poorer shot showing the site under construction and 10201 already in place.
H being the turntable cafe where 10201 was exhibited.
Exhibiting the future by Kevin Lane, on Flickr
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Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
The original Lentz arrangement had only a number of discreet cut-off positions (being rectified in the revised version for new-build P2) - a distinct disadvantage, later addressed in the Reidinger version - whereas Caprotti was continuously variable.
The low running plate Black 5s were often regarded as being sluggish and poor hill climbers but that was probably due to drivers winding the cut-off back too soon and too far to try to soften the exhaust, as with a piston valve loco. On RC locos, the exhaust remains sharp, even at very short cut-offs. Terry Essery, in his Firing Days at Saltley books, describes a run with one of the double chimney examples that firmly dispels any notion of weakness.
The last two Stanier locos had revised cam profiles and reduced cylinder clearance volumes to improve performance. The gear fitted to DoG and Standard 5s was even further improved. DoG proved to be the most efficient simple expansion engine ever tested in the UK but was let down by the draughting and ash-pan designs. The Standard 5s worked turn about with A4s on Glasgow - Aberdeen trains and matched them for timings on a far from flat route.
The main idea of applying rotary cam gear, with separate inlet and outlet valves was to improve economy and reduce maintenance associated with reciprocating valve gears. This was generally achieved, but the savings against modern, well designed, conventional gear locos was rather marginal and didn't really justify the additional initial costs and having non-standard locos in small numbers - much like the experience with Crosti fitted 9Fs.
When retrofitted to elderly locos in some European countries, the savings were significant enough to justify extensive use. Caprotti gear was widely used on marine and stationary steam engines.
Dave.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Well, I really don't know where to start in acknowledging all the additional info since my last post! However, just to prove that I can meander as well as anyone else I'll just add a memory vis-a-vis the most recent ones about the south bank of the Thames. I remember the shot tower adjacent to the Waterloo Bridge ramp, easily seen in the photo of the area Mick has provided. If memory serves me right it was approximately where the National Theatre is now although the photo suggests that I might be on the wrong ide of the road. And also there was an exhibition for a short while on the land adjacent of "Jonah the Whale" - see
- to which I was taken. I'm sure it was educational.
So, you see, I can be taken off piste as easily as anyone else! Seriously, though, keep these threads coming. They are hugely enjoyable to me if to no-one else.
Back to the subjects in hand.
Tony- that litter had not registered when I loaded the photo. However, considering how tidy most of the surrounding land is in other photos it's quite noticeable. And Simon - that's definitely not clutter!
Dave H. I note that single jet of steam, but my poor knowledge of Castles does not narrow the field significantly for me. Neither does Mickoo's kind confirmation of the tender type for which I am, nonetheless, grateful.
Martin and Mick. Interesting comments about the position of the lamp and possible direction of travel - all grist to the mill. I went for a "likely Castle" only because there were more of them and it's a more likely candidate. After the A1/A3 debacle I was, however, somewhat more careful in my description. Your analysis, Mick, of the likely reason why a loco would be leaving Old Oak for Paddington "the wrong way round" seems entirely logical. At this distance in time I really can't remember although I certainly remember the servicing depot at Ranelagh Road. As for Kings Cross, that I do remember and seeing locos coming out of the tunnels tender first in twos and occasionally threes whereupon they would separate and be attached to their various trains. In fact one of Tim's photos on which I'm now working shows just this scenario with an A4 and A3 backing in to the station. Graham - your comment about light locos using the flyover seems to make sense but I never saw that at first hand. The flyover was used almost exclusively for empty stock movements.
(Presentation of that Kings Cross photo is a while away. We are currently on around photo 650 of about 4,000, with "another drawer full" for me to even start on yet.)
Yorkie Dave - thanks for chiming in with the evidence of turntables at London termini. I was certainly unaware of some of those. Then Mike joined in with Ewer Street. That's certainly a new one on me. I must admit that, with regard to the other comments about the railway exhibition I wondered whether it would link up with the photos I have of Battersea. Although that selection is possibly incomplete I think that the photographer would have taken a photo of the Bulleid diesel if it had been there. There is certainly a WCML electric loco and other EMU stock and I've assumed that the exhibition was about the bright new future for BR so you are correct, Mick, that the Battersea and Festival of Britain exhibits were different and a good few years apart. (I went to the Festival of Britain. Sadly I remember little about it except for the Rowland Emett Railway.) In fact the stuff from Yorkshire Dave and Mickoo is quite fantastic and of enormous interest.
I'll be using all this info to build more background to the photos. Isn't it amazing that such a pedestrian photo of a Castle or King can bring about such a flowering of information? Long may it continue.
Martin. Thanks for the continuing and most valuable treatise on Caprotti valve gear. Just one thing (which may bring a further plethora of comment) is that, when rebuilt in preservation was it not established that the ash pan had not been built according to the drawings, thus stifling the fire of air? When rebuilt according to the original plans I understand that the performance of DoG was far superior to its behaviour in BR days. Thanks for the additional stuff about other locos with rotary valve gear, Mick. All this will be attached to the two photos of that Caprotti Black 5.
Brian
So, you see, I can be taken off piste as easily as anyone else! Seriously, though, keep these threads coming. They are hugely enjoyable to me if to no-one else.
Back to the subjects in hand.
Tony- that litter had not registered when I loaded the photo. However, considering how tidy most of the surrounding land is in other photos it's quite noticeable. And Simon - that's definitely not clutter!
Dave H. I note that single jet of steam, but my poor knowledge of Castles does not narrow the field significantly for me. Neither does Mickoo's kind confirmation of the tender type for which I am, nonetheless, grateful.
Martin and Mick. Interesting comments about the position of the lamp and possible direction of travel - all grist to the mill. I went for a "likely Castle" only because there were more of them and it's a more likely candidate. After the A1/A3 debacle I was, however, somewhat more careful in my description. Your analysis, Mick, of the likely reason why a loco would be leaving Old Oak for Paddington "the wrong way round" seems entirely logical. At this distance in time I really can't remember although I certainly remember the servicing depot at Ranelagh Road. As for Kings Cross, that I do remember and seeing locos coming out of the tunnels tender first in twos and occasionally threes whereupon they would separate and be attached to their various trains. In fact one of Tim's photos on which I'm now working shows just this scenario with an A4 and A3 backing in to the station. Graham - your comment about light locos using the flyover seems to make sense but I never saw that at first hand. The flyover was used almost exclusively for empty stock movements.
(Presentation of that Kings Cross photo is a while away. We are currently on around photo 650 of about 4,000, with "another drawer full" for me to even start on yet.)
Yorkie Dave - thanks for chiming in with the evidence of turntables at London termini. I was certainly unaware of some of those. Then Mike joined in with Ewer Street. That's certainly a new one on me. I must admit that, with regard to the other comments about the railway exhibition I wondered whether it would link up with the photos I have of Battersea. Although that selection is possibly incomplete I think that the photographer would have taken a photo of the Bulleid diesel if it had been there. There is certainly a WCML electric loco and other EMU stock and I've assumed that the exhibition was about the bright new future for BR so you are correct, Mick, that the Battersea and Festival of Britain exhibits were different and a good few years apart. (I went to the Festival of Britain. Sadly I remember little about it except for the Rowland Emett Railway.) In fact the stuff from Yorkshire Dave and Mickoo is quite fantastic and of enormous interest.
I'll be using all this info to build more background to the photos. Isn't it amazing that such a pedestrian photo of a Castle or King can bring about such a flowering of information? Long may it continue.
Martin. Thanks for the continuing and most valuable treatise on Caprotti valve gear. Just one thing (which may bring a further plethora of comment) is that, when rebuilt in preservation was it not established that the ash pan had not been built according to the drawings, thus stifling the fire of air? When rebuilt according to the original plans I understand that the performance of DoG was far superior to its behaviour in BR days. Thanks for the additional stuff about other locos with rotary valve gear, Mick. All this will be attached to the two photos of that Caprotti Black 5.
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
A couple of rounding up things.
There was until 1926 a signal box at the south end of Hungerford Bridge called Belvedere Road and there appears to have been until relatively recently a clipped and padlocked trailing crossover into an engineers siding at that location.
I have found the commissioning notice for Old Oak Common Signalbox, (Oct 5/6/7 1962) which was situated on the down side of the then vast expanse of running lines there, and almost immediately opposite the anonymous castle. One of the other signal boxes it worked to was Old Oak Common Engine Shed Signal Box which controlled the shed in/out as well as connections to various other sidings. The important bit relevant here is that from OOCESS box to OOC box there were a pair of running lines named "up and down engine shed" which implies all the appurtenances of train running including lamps. In light of this what I think may have been happening in the photos is that the loco came off OOC shed , ran down to OOC to reverse so it could access stock in the sidings for onward movement to Paddington, eventually to be turned at Ranelagh Road as Mick has suggested. I think Tim has captured the reversing move into the sidings, it would be going the same way if it were going on shed but it makes little sense with that amount of coal on the tender and the lamp on the tender is a tail lamp I have decided. The lines to the left of the loco are the flyover up and down E&C but there is no facility to cross from up to down which is why the engine is comimg from the direction it is. I think if it were a light engine move from Padd it would have come over the flyover, why wouldn't it? BTW in amongst the delightful pics of 94 and 97 panniers on ECS moves I can't immediately recall pics of large tender emgines running in reverse betwixt Padd and Old Oak, maybe a confirmation of an idea that Mick has again pointed out.
Anyway it's all speculation on my part which you are at liberty to toss in the bin, Happy Easter folks.
Martin
There was until 1926 a signal box at the south end of Hungerford Bridge called Belvedere Road and there appears to have been until relatively recently a clipped and padlocked trailing crossover into an engineers siding at that location.
I have found the commissioning notice for Old Oak Common Signalbox, (Oct 5/6/7 1962) which was situated on the down side of the then vast expanse of running lines there, and almost immediately opposite the anonymous castle. One of the other signal boxes it worked to was Old Oak Common Engine Shed Signal Box which controlled the shed in/out as well as connections to various other sidings. The important bit relevant here is that from OOCESS box to OOC box there were a pair of running lines named "up and down engine shed" which implies all the appurtenances of train running including lamps. In light of this what I think may have been happening in the photos is that the loco came off OOC shed , ran down to OOC to reverse so it could access stock in the sidings for onward movement to Paddington, eventually to be turned at Ranelagh Road as Mick has suggested. I think Tim has captured the reversing move into the sidings, it would be going the same way if it were going on shed but it makes little sense with that amount of coal on the tender and the lamp on the tender is a tail lamp I have decided. The lines to the left of the loco are the flyover up and down E&C but there is no facility to cross from up to down which is why the engine is comimg from the direction it is. I think if it were a light engine move from Padd it would have come over the flyover, why wouldn't it? BTW in amongst the delightful pics of 94 and 97 panniers on ECS moves I can't immediately recall pics of large tender emgines running in reverse betwixt Padd and Old Oak, maybe a confirmation of an idea that Mick has again pointed out.
Anyway it's all speculation on my part which you are at liberty to toss in the bin, Happy Easter folks.
Martin
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Martin, interesting information, I'm not sure an express engine would back onto ECS and take it to Paddington and then drop off and reverse, that would require an extra engine at the country end to push the stock onto the stops.
Paddington is, like many other London termini, a station of two halves, the south side is the departure side, the north side is the arrival side, that's not a hard and fast rule but the vast majority of trains left from Platforms 1-6, platforms, 7-8 seem to be universal and 9-10 were usually arrivals. I cannot recall seeing an express engine on the stops at Platforms 1-6, no doubt there has been or was but I've not seen one.
There are two dedicated ECS lines out of Paddington (No 1 and No 2 UP E&C lines) on the south side (see attached departure aspect diagram from 1961), predominately to move stock to the terminus from OOC and would use the fly over, as Graham notes, express engines could take stock over there, and as you note, drop off at Ranelagh Road, turn and set back once the stock is pushed into place. It's a possibility but seems convoluted, it also means the express engine will be sat at the terminus for some time. Both Up E&C lines cannot access platforms higher than 6 and lends weight to them being used only as route to supply ECS for departing trains. Note also the Down main can also only be accessed from Platform 6 and lower.
There will be down E&C lines but the diagram doesn't show that, I suspect the down E&C will be hard up against the LUL lines.
Typically stock arrives a good time before departure, 60+ minutes, engines arrived later, maybe 10-20 mins before departure. Express engines sat idle in terminals is not good practice, primarily for the smoke aspect I would assume.
Paddington is, like many other London termini, a station of two halves, the south side is the departure side, the north side is the arrival side, that's not a hard and fast rule but the vast majority of trains left from Platforms 1-6, platforms, 7-8 seem to be universal and 9-10 were usually arrivals. I cannot recall seeing an express engine on the stops at Platforms 1-6, no doubt there has been or was but I've not seen one.
There are two dedicated ECS lines out of Paddington (No 1 and No 2 UP E&C lines) on the south side (see attached departure aspect diagram from 1961), predominately to move stock to the terminus from OOC and would use the fly over, as Graham notes, express engines could take stock over there, and as you note, drop off at Ranelagh Road, turn and set back once the stock is pushed into place. It's a possibility but seems convoluted, it also means the express engine will be sat at the terminus for some time. Both Up E&C lines cannot access platforms higher than 6 and lends weight to them being used only as route to supply ECS for departing trains. Note also the Down main can also only be accessed from Platform 6 and lower.
There will be down E&C lines but the diagram doesn't show that, I suspect the down E&C will be hard up against the LUL lines.
Typically stock arrives a good time before departure, 60+ minutes, engines arrived later, maybe 10-20 mins before departure. Express engines sat idle in terminals is not good practice, primarily for the smoke aspect I would assume.