Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[simond]

Wow. Just look at the coal load on 60009. That's definitely out of gauge.
Dave.

I thought that, and wondered.

I guess it would have just planed off had it met a low bridge, though a bracket signal might have rattled a bit.

 

[John Duffy]

I thought that, and wondered.

I guess it would have just planed off had it met a low bridge, though a bracket signal might have rattled a bit.

Most likely a Dundee TB crew stealing coal!

 

[John Duffy]

A2 60530 Sayajirao on an Aberdeen to Edinburgh train passing Haymarket pn 10th September 1961.

View attachment 202099

A1 Pacific 60162 Saint Johnstoun on a northbound parcels train passing Haymarket on 10th September 1961.

View attachment 202100

Taking Saint Johnstoun first, she is heading west on the NB route to Glasgow and passing the Edinburgh cleansing department facility, opposite Haymarket. This route is not Up and Down for direction, but East and West.

Sayajirao is on the Dundee lines looking in the opposite direction and heading into Waverley on the Up line! She would have earlier worked to Dundee and changed engines at Tay Bridge station. The loco going onto (probably) Dundee West rather than TB shed for turning and lay over, before heading back to Edinburgh, again changing engines in Dundee. Engine changing at Dundee was a long standing practice that goes back to the introduction of drivers being allocated their own engines by Haymarket. This kept locos and crews together and within the maximum working hours in a shift. The introduction of this system (long gone by the time of these photos, but habits stick) is discussed in Norman McKillop's (Toram Beg) book Enginemen Elite which has just been reprinted and is well worth a read.

 

[Martin Shaw]

This route is not Up and Down for direction, but East and West.

Hmm, this is geographically correct however the S&T always called it the up (to Edinburgh) and down (to Glasgow) everywhere I know about on the E&G, perhaps it changed at Saughton Junc where the two routes diverged. I do know the the Fife and Glasgow lines were referred to as the North and South lines. Any thoughts John?

Re IMGs #2401 & 2407, Yeadon has 68338 wdn on 15/9/61 and cut up at Inverurie on the 16/3/62. RCTS green book notes it as the regular shunt engine at St Leonards throughout its working life which was always at St Margarets. It is an unlikely turn from Haymarket so it probably was in store having been made redundant by a 350hp diesel shunter.
Martin

 

[John Duffy]

Hmm, this is geographically correct however the S&T always called it the up (to Edinburgh) and down (to Glasgow) everywhere I know about on the E&G, perhaps it changed at Saughton Junc where the two routes diverged. I do know the the Fife and Glasgow lines were referred to as the North and South lines. Any thoughts John?

Re IMGs #2401 & 2407, Yeadon has 68338 wdn on 15/9/61 and cut up at Inverurie on the 16/3/62. RCTS green book notes it as the regular shunt engine at St Leonards throughout its working life which was always at St Margarets. It is an unlikely turn from Haymarket so it probably was in store having been made redundant by a 350hp diesel shunter.
Martin

I am trying to find the reference I have but am struggling. It was apparently a hangover from when the Caledonian had running powers at various parts of the line, meaning that their trains would be referred to as the opposite of NB trains running on the same stretch of track. I'm sure the NB would consider it their infrastructure and use Up to Edinburgh. I should probably stop considering the NB to be wrong just because of their name!

J

 

[Barry37]

I'm not sure, but that open Mineral behind the J84 in #2720 might have a pressed steel side door? (my Potential Intrigue Detector is very sensitive, apparently - and I know it can pick up spurious inputs as a result )

Cheers

Jan

Indeed it does, with a riveted body and a pressed steel end - but not visible here. It's either an LNER-built wagon (of which there were 7,200), or a BR one to D1/103 (about 8,000 wagons). Welded side doors were also seen on these wagons in later years.
That is a lot of hole drilling.

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Indeed it does, with a riveted body and a pressed steel end - but not visible here. It's either an LNER-built wagon (of which there were 7,200), or a BR one to D1/103 (about 8,000 wagons). Welded side doors were also seen on these wagons in later years.
That is a lot of hole drilling.

Hi @Barry37
Thanks. All good info. A bit of a wagonhead, me....


My forst job on the shopfloor after my year in the apprentice school at Redler Conveyors back in 1977 was in the fabrication section; we used to make conveyor systems for bulk powders and grain. I seem to recall there was a bolt every 40 or 50mm; thankfully, we had huge punches that made light work of this, doing a couple of metres at one (quite literal!) hit. I wouldn't fancy drilling that lot; never mid rivetting them!

Cheers

Jan

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for the info about that accident, Martin. A sad story indeed.

John and Martin. Thanks again for the icing on the cake for those photos. Duly to be added to the accompanying script.

Jan and Barry. Thanks for the confirmation - and the reminiscences!

A3 60072 Sunstar on the turntable at Haymarket Shed on 10th September 1961 with an unidentified V2 behind. 60072 was one of the A3s never fitted with trough deflectors. Sunstar was a Holbeck engine and had been since November 1960. It was transferred to Heaton in August 1961 and withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up in May 1963. (BR Database).



A view of the shed yard at Polmadie on 10th September 1961 displaying more ex LMS and Standard classes than you could shake a stick at!



Pickersgill 300 Class 0-6-0 57663 on shed at St Rollox on 10th September 1961. BR Database report this loco as having been a Hamilton resident since 1948. The SLS reports it as being in store in July 1961 and SLS, BR Database and Rail UK record a withdrawal date of November 1961. It went to Connels, Coatbridge for destruction which was complete by the end of September 1962.



WD 2-10-0 90763 on shed at St Rollox on 10th September 1961. It was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1960 and withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was sxrapped by the end of November 1963 at Darlington Works. (Rail UK).



A4 60009 Union of South Africa on shed at Haymarket on 10th September 1961 with that tender overflowing with coal which'll have the top scraped off if they try to get it in to the shed. This was in very recent post #2729 so I'll repeat the commentary here. It had been a Haymarket engine for many years but moved to Aberdeen Ferryhill in May 1962 for use on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was withdrawn at the beginning of June 1963 moving in to preservation as well recorded elsewhere.



Also in post #2729 was J88 68335 but here on shed at Haymarket on 10th September 1961. The appropriate comments are repeated here:
68335 unsurprisingly was a Haymarket engine at the time. By the date of the photo there were only seven J88s still in traffic and only one of them was vacuum fitted so the identity is not difficult. The other so fitted was 68332 which was withdrawn in May 1960, both were equipped with vacuum brakes early in nationalisation at Thornton for the John Haig whisky traffic at Markinch, which fortuitously neatly keeps it all well on thread.

It had been a Haymarket engine since December 1959, went to Dawsholm in May 1962 after a period of storage at Bathgate in April 1962 and was withdrawn from Dawsholm in the following October. (SLS). It was disposed of at Inverurie Works by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[John Duffy]

Pickersgill 300 Class 0-6-0 57663 on shed at St Rollox on 10th September 1961. BR Database report this loco as having been a Hamilton resident since 1948. The SLS reports it as being in store in July 1961 and SLS, BR Database and Rail UK record a withdrawal date of November 1961. It went to Connels, Coatbridge for destruction which was complete by the end of September 1962.

View attachment 202203

WD 2-10-0 90763 on shed at St Rollox on 10th September 1961. It was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1960 and withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was sxrapped by the end of November 1963 at Darlington Works. (Rail UK).

View attachment 202204

I think these are at Balornock Shed 65B rather than St Rollox.

J

 

[Martin Shaw]

The A3 in IMG#2413 is one of potentially 5 locos with a 94A boiler and a non-corridor tender and yet to be fitted or otherwise with Witte deflectors on the date of the photo.

60053 Sansovino allocated to Darlington
60070 Gladiateur allocated to Ardsley
60072 Sunstar allocated to Heaton
60101 Cicero allocated to Haymarket
60111 Enterprise allocated to Grantham
They all had a while before withdrawal and I feel 111 is unlikely that far north. Given the filthy state of it 72 from Heaton is the most likely despite Brian's reservation about the nameplate which would also apply to 101 although Haymarket were one of the better sheds for keeping things clean. My hunch is Tim was right and it is Sunstar.
Martin

 

[daifly]

Brian's reservation re Sunstar was influenced by the length of the nameplate. Here's a better view just grabbed from ebay:


That view of the nameplate might put minds at rest!

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

With thanks I willingly bend to your superior knowledge about the location, John. Apart from 57663 are any of the others at Balornock?

Martin and Dave. I'm now convinced that loco is Sunstar! I'll excise my reservation when I update the description.

J36 65258 on shed at Haymarket on 10th September 1961. It had been allocated to St Margarets since 1948 and according to BR Database was withdrawn from there in March 1962. SLS agrees with the withdrawal date. However Rail UK report withdrawal from Haymarket although it agrees on the date. My Locoshed Books advise the allocation as St Margarets up to 1959 although there's a gap in my collection between 1959 and late in 1962 by which time the loco was no longer listed. It was scrapped at McLellans, Langloan, in November 1962. (Rail UK and BR Database).

Rail UK also report that 65258 was employed as a banker at Haymarket from April 1961 and stored at Bathgate in April 1962.

65258 St Margarets, Haymarket 4/4/61, Wdn 5/3/62. Scrapped 18/10/62. Since it was scrapped at Langloan (Coatbridge) it may well have been stored at Bathgate on its last journey westward.



McIntosh 782 Class 0-6-0T 56298 on shed at Polmadie on 10th September 1961. It had been a Polmadie engine since at least 1948 and was withdrawn from there on 25th October 1961. (BR Database). SLS agrees regarding the withdrawal date. Rail UK advise the withdrawal date to be 31st October and agrees with the final allocation. Disposal was at McLellans, Coatbridge, in November 1962.



Princess Coronations 46232 Duchess of Montrose and 46251 City of Nottingham (last seen in post #2662) on shed at Polmadie on 10th September 1961. BR Database record 46232 as being allocated to Polmadie since at least 1948 and withdrawn from there in December 1962. SLS agrees with the withdrawal date. The loco went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed in November 1963. (Rail UK). Rai UK also advise that this loco suffered bomb damage at Berkhamsted in 1940 but I've investigated this no further. It'll be of particular interest to me, personally, though, as my current abode is only 15 minutes away from that centre of industrial excellence. (And those who know of Berko will wonder how it ever came to be bombed. The nearest air field was quite a few miles away at Bovingdon or Cheddington and had no industry of any consequence. It couldn't have been a strategic target.)

Some thoughts on the Berko Bomb. I suspect that it is unlikely to be a jettison from a Britiish bomber. Most RAF bomber airfields were positioned to the eastern side of Britain and so Berko is an unlikely overflight at this stage of the war as range was extremely limited until the big four engined aircraft arrived.
Another factor is that the bombs of the RAF at this stage were useless. the most common bomb was the 250lb GP. These had a distressing habit of the fuse dropping out most times they were dropped. If this bomb hit a hard object it tended to bounce off without any bang. The brave boys who died in the Blenheims, Battles and Wellingtons died for nothing. If the 250GP went off it caused little damage as the Casing/Explosive ratio was patheticly small. By mid 1940 a new range of bombs (MC for Medium Capacity) were in development and under test.
Finally the Luftewaffe bomber force were mostly in Northern France until they went off to Russia. A track from the Midlands to N France would go reasonably close to Berko.

46251 was a long way from home which had been Crewe North since October 1957, then Camden in March 1963 and back to Crewe North in May the same year where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, during December the same year. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian and John
Your both right, the shed is at Balornock however in BR days it was known as St Rollox. We discussed this at length a year ago and if you look at post #1704 I showed a map of the east of Glasgow environs with highlighted locations.

65258 St Margarets, Haymarket 4/4/61, Wdn 5/3/62. Scrapped 18/10/62. Since it was scrapped at Langloan (Coatbridge) it may well have been stored at Bathgate on its last journey westward.

Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

The A3 in IMG#2413 is one of potentially 5 locos with a 94A boiler and a non-corridor tender and yet to be fitted or otherwise with Witte deflectors on the date of the photo.

60053 Sansovino allocated to Darlington
60070 Gladiateur allocated to Ardsley
60072 Sunstar allocated to Heaton
60101 Cicero allocated to Haymarket
60111 Enterprise allocated to Grantham
They all had a while before withdrawal and I feel 111 is unlikely that far north. Given the filthy state of it 72 from Heaton is the most likely despite Brian's reservation about the nameplate which would also apply to 101 although Haymarket were one of the better sheds for keeping things clean. My hunch is Tim was right and it is Sunstar.
Martin

I saw Sunstar, and quite a lot more A3’s, on the Thames Clyde express at Kilmarnock. We thought they were painted black so dirty were they!

Ian.

 

[Roger Pound]

Nothing to do with pictures, but apropos the Bomb at Berkhamsted - may I venture the theory that it could have been one that 'hung-up' and was randomly released by the efforts of the crew to rid themselves of the danger of an unscheduled explosion - for instance when landing. My late father-in-law, a farmer in Leicestershire, experienced such an instance when a German bomber returning from raiding Coventry deposited a 'hang-up' in one of his fields. Fortunately no injuries or damage were caused other than a large crater in the field.

Ok, chaps, end of reminiscences, now back to the delightful photos, please, Brian.

Roger.

 

[simond]

of an unscheduled explosion

in these politically-correct days, the appropriate term is ”an unplanned rapid disassembly”.

At least I think that’s what that nice Mr Musk called it…

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin, for the reminder about St Rollox/Balornock which I must admit I'd forgotten. Also for the confirmation about the J36, although I'm still suspicious there's a Haymarket allocation in there somewhere.

Roger - thanks for yours re the bomb at Berkhamsted. I suspect yours is the most likely explanation but I'll talk to a few people in Berko and see whether there is any local knowledge. Thanks too for your expressing continuing enthusiasm for the thread.

As for "unplanned rapid disassembly I must admit to doing a when I heard that one while watching the latest Spacex launch with everyone expressing their delight that their effort had just exploded - sorry "disassembled". again...

Britannia 70051 Firth of Forth on shed at Polmadie on 10th September 1961. It had been delivered new to Polmadie in August 1954, moved to Corkerhill in April 1962 and then spent periods at Crewe North, Holyhead, Crewe South, Banbury, and finally to Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettlestone, in March 1968. (BR Database).



Two photos here of lines of mainly Caley locos probably in store or already withdrawn at Polmadie on 10th September 1961.





Clan 72000 Clan Buchanan on shed at Polmadie on 10th September 1961. It had been allocated to Polmadie since April 1960 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It then went to Darlington Works for scrapping which was completed in September 1963. (BR Database).

D2432 was an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 Shunter later class 06 allocated to Polmadie in April 1960, then Eastfield in September 1967 where it was withdrawn in December 1968. I have no details of final disposal.

According to CJ Marsden's 'BR Locomotive numbering' D2432 (new Feb 1960 - withdrawn Dec 1968) went to P. Wood, Queenborough after withdrawal, and was then exported to Italy in 1977.


McIntosh Class 812 57622 on the shed works at Corkerhill on 10th September 1961. It had been at Polmadie since March 1956 and was withdrawn from there in July 1962. It was in store for a period around May 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped at Connels, Coatbridge, in September 1962. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Kier Hardy]

According to CJ Marsden's 'BR Locomotive numbering' D2432 (new Feb 1960 - withdrawn Dec 1968) went to P. Wood, Queenborough after withdrawal, and was then exported to Italy in 1977.

 

[SimonT]

Some thoughts on the Berko Bomb. I suspect that it is unlikely to be a jettison from a Britiish bomber. Most RAF bomber airfields were positioned to the eastern side of Britain and so Berko is an unlikely overflight at this stage of the war as range was extremely limited until the big four engined aircraft arrived.
Another factor is that the bombs of the RAF at this stage were useless. the most common bomb was the 250lb GP. These had a distressing habit of the fuse dropping out most times they were dropped. If this bomb hit a hard object it tended to bounce off without any bang. The brave boys who died in the Blenheims, Battles and Wellingtons died for nothing. If the 250GP went off it caused little damage as the Casing/Explosive ratio was patheticly small. By mid 1940 a new range of bombs (MC for Medium Capacity) were in development and under test.
Finally the Luftewaffe bomber force were mostly in Northern France until they went off to Russia. A track from the Midlands to N France would go reasonably close to Berko.

 

[Bill Campbell]

Hi Brian

There is more information about D2432 in a page in the Diesel Dilemmas section of the RCTS website here:

D2432 – Railway Correspondence & Travel Society

features.rcts.org.uk

Regards.