Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dog Star]

A GCR 9K was on the first public service from High Wycombe to Marylebone when the GW&GC Jt. opened in April 1906. The occasion was recorded by Sweetlands and by "Friths". When Sweetlands was still in business I obtained a copy of their photo from their studio... circa 1969 and from the original glass negative.

 

[robertm]

J68 68660 is, in my opinion, almost certainly at Braintree. The disposition of the water tank, engine shed and trackwork suggest this. Additionally the industrial building and ventilators in the back ground are identical to those of the local foundry namely Messrs Lake and Elliot.
Braintree was my birthplace but by the time I was old enough to take an active interest in the railway, steam had all but gone and the lovely Holden and Hill tanks had been replaced by DE shunters (08s as they became)
Thanks for the nostalgia.
Bob

 

[oldravendale]

I have seen photos of the GCR 9K/LNER C13 on the Chesham shuttle and their use on the push pull would seem to make them ideal for that purpose. In fact there's a photo here: Chesham branch - Wikipedia

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

According to my old 1954 Combined 'abc' 67420 was push-pull fitted along with half a dozen others of the class. My apologies if this last fact is obvious from the photograph -unfortunately I cannot tell....!

As Brian (@oldravendale) has noted the Neasden based push-pull fitted C13s in BR(E) days were used on the Chesham Shuttle (later replaced by LMR push-pull locos when Neasden came under LMR control).

The push-pull fitted C13s may well have also been used on the then local West Ruislip > South Ruislip > Northolt Park > Sudbury Hill > Sudbury & Harrow Road > Wembley Hill > Marylebone services.

 

[Arun Sharma]

As Brian (@oldravendale) has noted the Neasden based push-pull fitted C13s in BR(E) days were used on the Chesham Shuttle (later replaced by LMR push-pull locos when Neasden came under LMR control).

The push-pull fitted C13s may well have also been used on the then local West Ruislip > South Ruislip > Northolt Park > Sudbury Hill > Sudbury & Harrow Road > Wembley Hill > Marylebone services.

The engine [67420] is obviously push-pull fitted but what isn't obvious is any sign of a 'train stop' which you would expect on an engine that operated over LT lines. There is a object [possibly attached to a chain] hanging off just by the bottom of the nearside front guard iron but that looks more like a hose cap. There certainly insn't any evidence of one on the rear nearside guard iron.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The engine [67420] is obviously push-pull fitted but what isn't obvious is any sign of a 'train stop' which you would expect on an engine that operated over LT lines. There is a object [possibly attached to a chain] hanging off just by the bottom of the nearside front guard iron but that looks more like a hose cap. There certainly insn't any evidence of one on the rear nearside guard iron.

I recall we had a discussion in post #4,162 earlier in the thread about non-tripcock fitted locomotives working over the Harrow to Rickmansworth electrified section.

A LURS publication by Piers Connor (part 30 attached to post #4,162) implies, when upon reading the section headed 'Aspects' on page 2, auxiliary signalling was provided between Harrow and Rickmansworth to cater for the non-tripcock fitted locomotives (and later diesel units).

 

[oldravendale]

I thought it was nice to see a 9K/C13 on shed at Neasden - I just missed them in my spotting days. Although I was bunking sheds by then I didn't get to Neasden until about 1961, just in time to catch the last of the L1s and B1s although the shed was largely populated by Fairburn tanks and Black 5s by then. However, the discussion about the C13s is much appreciated, so thank you Roger @Roger Pound , Graham @Dog Star , Arun and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for filling in a lot of info about the use of these engines.

Also Bob @robertm for confirming the location of 68660. It was the area of Tim's home in the late 50s which is why it features so strongly in his portfolio. I'm glad it brought back some reminiscences, Bob.

Some of the very earliest of Tim's photos here, probably using the family box camera for at least the first two so we can hopefully forgive the doubtful technical quality.

Caledonian Railway 2P 0-4-4T 55164 at Dumfries in August 1956. This is where the loco wzs allocated and it had been there since January 1948. It moved to Beattock in May 1958 and was withdrawn in February 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped at Kilmarnock Works (WHTS) but verification is required and I don’t have a date of scrapping.



An unidentified GER 2-4-2T with what I believe to be a Ferrywagon in the right background at Braintree in 1956.



A T9, 30289 and SR Class 757 0-6-0T 30757 Earl of Mount Edgcumbe seen previously and at the same time as this photo in post #366 at Eastleigh on 30th November 1957.

30289 was allocated to Eastleigh in February 1951 and was withdrawn in November 1959. (SLS). It was scrapped later in November 1959 (BR Database). On 28th October 1959 the loco was recorded on shed at Eastleigh but out of use (SLS) so we can safely assume that the loco was scrapped there.

Why the Southern chose to retain such an idiosyncratic and non standard locomotive from a constituent, the Plymouth Devonport & South Western Junction Railway is difficult to understand but there were two of them. We forget how short of money the whole country was immediately after the war and this may be, at least in part, why so many old designs remained - although Yorkshire Dave has also previously described why the Southern retained so many old locos for so long. By this time the sister locomotive, 30758, Lord St Leven, had already been withdrawn and scrapped almost year previously. 30757 lived at Plymouth Friary until June 1956 when it transferred to Eastleigh. At the time of this photo just over a year later the loco looks unlikely to operate again, although I'm not convinced despite the leaky tanks it's yet in the "scrap line". In fact the T9 30289 which is the subject of the photo lasted until 1959. BR Database suggests that formal withdrawal of 30757 took place in December 1957 and it looks as though it was physically scrapped immediately, although railUK.info suggests withdrawal took place in December 1956.

Personally I think BR Database is right as 30757 appears in the Locoshed Book for November/December 1957 as allocated to Eastleigh so was still in existence then. It's also in the April/May 1957 Locoshed book at Eastleigh.



Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Tim’s original description of the location must be questioned as he advises it to be Liverpool Street. I wonder if it’s Braintree but, bearing in mind previous experience on this thread I’m probably wrong. However, J68 68660 was a Parkeston Quay engine from March 1947 and was withdrawn in December 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford (Yeadons Vol 48) in June 1961. (BR Database).

View attachment 236636









Brian

68660 is at Braintree, it was a vac fitted shunter as apposed to a J68 passenger loco, the difference being that it does not have the raised condenser tanks on top of the side tanks and would have had lever reverse instead of screw, this meant that because of the short length of the cabs that a depression was built into the bunker back plate ( only on the shunters) so that the reversing lever didn't pin the crew to the plate !
It is also fitted with un balanced 15 spoke wheels which were only fitted to the shunters although as time went on some could be seen with 10
and 12 spoke.



Col.

 

[robertm]

68660 is at Braintree, it was a vac fitted shunter as apposed to a J68 passenger loco, the difference being that it does not have the raised condenser tanks on top of the side tanks and would have had lever reverse instead of screw, this meant that because of the short length of the cabs that a depression was built into the bunker back plate ( only on the shunters) so that the reversing lever didn't pin the crew to the plate !
It is also fitted with un balanced 15 spoke wheels which were only fitted to the shunters although as time went on some could be seen with 10
and 12 spoke.



Col.

In P Payes original book on the B Stortford, Dunmow and Braintree branch on p179 is a photo of 68662 an identical engine afaik, at least the wheels, side tanks and vacuum fit are the same, hauling the Braintree to Witham passenger service substituting for the regular loco which had failed. Presumably the coaches were vac rather than Westinghouse by the 50s. I’d like a fiver for every hour I’ve spent with this book.
Bob

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Hello
Regarding post #4847, I beleive the van is a Interfrigo unit. It looks like one of these

https://flic.kr/p/ND2XUK

Cheers

Jan

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Some stuff.

30289 Dorchester 02, Plymouth Friary 8/37, Salisbury 31/5/48, Eastleigh 5/2/51, Wdn 14/11/59, Cut up Eastleigh Works w/e 21/11/59.

30757 Earl of Mount Edgcumbe Plymouth Friary 1/1/48, Eastleigh 5/56, Wdn 12/57. 30758 Lord St Levan Wdn 12/56 otherwise as 30757.

68660 Stratford 20/10/23, Peterborough East 2/1/26, Sheffield 26/3/26, Stratford 17/8/27, Parkeston 8/3/47, Stratford 10/4/49, Wdn 4/12/60,
Cut up Stratford.
68662 Stratford 1/11/23, York 8/8/27, Ardsley 15/3/28, Stratford 10/5/35, Colchester 12/2/56, Stratford 11/5/58, Wdn 18/8/58, Cut up Stratford.

The story of the J68s is for Stratford pretty simple. The GER built ten 0-6-0T passenger engines in 1912 with condensing apparatus and Westinghouse air brakes. screw reversers and ten spoke balanced wheels. They had vacuum ejectors fitted to the majority in 1924 and the condensing equipment removed in the late 30s. They were numbered 41 -50 (68638 - 68646). 41 would have become 68637 but it went to the government in 1939.

The GER then built a further ten shunting locomotives in 1913 to the same basic design without condensing and with lever reverse, a steam brake and 15 spoke unbalanced wheels. These were numbered 21-30 (68647 - 68656).

The LNER built a further ten locomotives in 1923 the same as the 1913 batch numbered 31 - 40 (68657 - 68666).

The LNER decided that these locos were more useful as passenger pilots so seventeen of them had vacuum ejectors added, 2 in 1923/24 and the rest in 1935-40. Three were withdrawn as steam braked only as result of being allocated to Boston Lincs for shunting in the docks. The twenty nine remaining were withdrawn in 1958-61. There was some swapping around of wheels as Col notes, 68658/63 had 12 spoke wheels and 68651 had 10 spoke wheels, there may have been others however 68660 and 68662 are identical without any contrary photographic evidence.

Right back at the very beginning of this thread (4 1/2 years ago) there was a discussion about engines at Witham and Braintree, it's worth looking up.
Martin

 

[AJC]

Hello
Regarding post #4847, I beleive the van is a Interfrigo unit. It looks like one of these

https://flic.kr/p/ND2XUK

Cheers

Jan

Wasn't (isn't?) Interfrigo a private company with its own vans, much like Transfesa? Apparently not, or at least, not exactly: Intercontainer-Interfrigo - Wikipedia - I had no idea.

The vehicle illustrated at Braintree is definitely the same type of vehicle from SNCB/NMBS as the 'B' monogram is clearly visible.

Interesting/non-standard power classification script on 30757, by the way.

Adam

 

[Eastsidepilot]

An unidentified GER 2-4-2T with what I believe to be a Ferrywagon in the right background at Braintree in 1956.

View attachment 236692





Brian

Brian, what's the betting this is the same loco ( F5 67212) and coaches as in post #55 ? also taken in 1956 at Witham.
It could have run from Witham run round and attached the vans ready for the return ? or visa versa.

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Wasn't (isn't?) Interfrigo a private company with its own vans, much like Transfesa? Apparently not, or at least, not exactly: Intercontainer-Interfrigo - Wikipedia - I had no idea.

The vehicle illustrated at Braintree is definitely the same type of vehicle from SNCB/NMBS as the 'B' monogram is clearly visible.

Interesting/non-standard power classification script on 30757, by the way.

Adam

Hi Adam,
I got a lot of info - and the onward link to Pim van Gestel's intersting Flickr account Pim Van Gestel’s albums | Flickr from tranlating this page NMBS Interfrigo koelwagens . I know you have a penchant for these things

Cheers

Jan

 

[readingtype]

I got a lot of info - and the onward link to Pim van Gestel's intersting Flickr account Pim Van Gestel’s albums | Flickr from tranlating this page NMBS Interfrigo koelwagens .

New sources of continental wagon info and images to me - dank u wel!

Ben

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for confirming the location, Col @Eastsidepilot and the further detail about the loco. Then there's the additional stuff from Bob @robertm which builds a rather fuller background than I would ever have known. I think you could well be correct about the photo being related to post #55, Col. When Tim and I started to look at his negatives a substantial proportion were pulled out of any sequence there may have been previously (and there never was much of a sequence anyway!) so that I could scan and print them for him which in part accounts for the rather random date and subject order. Tim was a very difficult chap to control when he was in enthusiastic mode! In retrospect I'm actually quite happy about that as it leads to variation throughout the thread and all are now catalogued. I suspect a succession of photos all of the same subjects/locations or dates could become rather tedious.

Jan @Lyndhurstman - thanks for kicking off the discussion I anticipated about the Ferrywagon. Then Adam @AJC for yours and I like Ben's @readingtype well justified comment of appreciation.

As ever, Martin @Martin Shaw , thanks for yours. Shots around Witham are sprinkled throughout this thread and I appreciate you mentioning the early one.

Lord Nelson 30862 Lord Collingwood and Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76009 at Eastleigh Shed on 30th November 1957. The Lord Nelson was an Eastleigh engine from June 1956 and was withdrawn on 6th October 1962. (SLS). It stayed at Eastleigh for disposal which was completed week ending 27th October 1962. (RO).

76009 was allocated to Eastleigh in January 1957, Yeovil Town in September 1958, Salisbury January 1959, back to Eastleigh in February 1960 and finally Nine Elms in October 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in January 1968. (BR Database).



An unidentified F Class 2-4-2T loco at Braintree in July 1956 – this may be related to the sequence Col @Eastsidepilot refers to above. I don’t know the precise class. Does this coach look viable? Due to significant negative damage much of the coach is painted in.
Edit: Now known to be an F6 and the coach is a Brake/3rd.



Kentish Town in September 1957 and Stanier 4P 2-6-4T 42540. The loco was allocated to Kentish Town from October 1956, moved to Neasden in July 1959 and finally Walton on the Hill in August 1961 where it was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It then went to Horwich Works for disposal which was observed on 17th March 1963 (RO) and the job was completed in April. (BR Database).



The interior of Sunderland Roundhouse on 1st September 1956. A study in sunshine and shadows.



The next series of photos will be back in Northern Ireland.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

The Braintree engine, it's actually an F6 given away by the round topped spectacle plate windows. By Jul 56 there were according to Yeadon, only seven in traffic, 67224/9/31 were at Lowestoft so probably not one of those, Stratford had three 67221/8/30 and Colchester one 67227 so its likely one of those four, 67221 rings a bell from perhaps much earlier discussion.
P.Payes book has a pic of 67228 at Braintree and 67227 is mentioned in the text.

Martin

 

[robertm]

Martin,
Although you’re probably right, it should be noted that 67218 and 67219 were F5s and fitted with the side window cab with arched spectacle windows. ExGER locos are a minefield.
Brian,
The coach at Braintree is entirely plausible. This, a brk/3rd and a corridor compo were the normal consist.
Bob

 

[Arun Sharma]

Martin,
Although you’re probably right, it should be noted that 67218 and 67219 were F5s and fitted with the side window cab with arched spectacle windows. ExGER locos are a minefield.

I have an idea that in addition to the window ahead of the cab opening, the tanks were rather larger on the F6 compared to the two F5 that had the additional window. By the time of the photograph, 67218 [modified F5] would have been well ensconced operating between Epping and Ongar with push-pull gear and tripcocks so wouldn't have been a candidate. Incidentally, AIUI, the group building the new F5 plans to number it 67218 in memory of the time spent on the Ongar branch.

 

[Martin Shaw]

There is only one real visual difference between 62718/9 and the F6 class which is the presence of the vent pipes from condensing days immediately in front of the cab corners. For some reason the LNER kept them on the F6s when they removed the condensing apparatus. The F6/5 pair don't have them and by July 56 were both Stratford engines and could conceivably have been at Braintree. The tanks on the F5s were 1200 gallon capacity compared to the 1450 gallons of an F6. However as Arun notes 62718 was rattling around Ongar and 62719 was 4 months off withdrawal. I can't decide whether the loco in the pic has these pipes or not.
Martin