DJH 9F 2-10-0

[JimG]

I find that a bit worrying! There's no way I'll use this up within 6 months! At £22 a shot that's an expensive bit of solder. Not sure I'll get domestic approval to use the fridge either, although I'll try putting it in to another container. Just makes it a faff if you need to get it to the workshop for a small bit of work.

Brian,

Here's the datasheet for the solder cream I have

http://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/-2208185409048886410

Under packaging on Page 2, you will see that it states a minimum shelf life of six months when stored sealed at 5C - 10C. If you assume a conservative element in the data sheet the shelf life for us could be a good bit more than the six months. Certainly I have been pleasantly surprised to find mine still useable after purchasing it a year ago but it has been stored in the fridge and only taken out when used. It was off Ebay and very cheap - £3.95 - so very probably being sold off at the end of its shelf life and I didn't expect it to survive too long in a useable state. My first ever syringe from Brian Lewis at C&L had to be thrown out after a year or two with only a small fraction used. I suspect that this is one of these products where the profits are in what's thrown away.

I do note that it also states in the packaging section that the product can separate with storage but can be restored to good condition by working it. I wonder if this is what I am effectively doing by puddling the cream on the end of the syringe nozzle with a cocktail stick.

I suspect that what we want is a much smaller syringe size - maybe 5g instead of 25g - so that we have a reasonable chance of cutting down on wastage. The only alternate size of container I can see are 1kg, 500g and 250g tubs.

Jim.

 

[Jon Fitness]

Brian,

Here's the datasheet for the solder cream I have

http://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/-2208185409048886410

Under packaging on Page 2, you will see that it states a minimum shelf life of six months when stored sealed at 5C - 10C. If you assume a conservative element in the data sheet the shelf life for us could be a good bit more than the six months. Certainly I have been pleasantly surprised to find mine still useable after purchasing it a year ago but it has been stored in the fridge and only taken out when used. It was off Ebay and very cheap - £3.95 - so very probably being sold off at the end of its shelf life and I didn't expect it to survive too long in a useable state. My first ever syringe from Brian Lewis at C&L had to be thrown out after a year or two with only a small fraction used. I suspect that this is one of these products where the profits are in what's thrown away.

I do note that it also states in the packaging section that the product can separate with storage but can be restored to good condition by working it. I wonder if this is what I am effectively doing by puddling the cream on the end of the syringe nozzle with a cocktail stick.

I suspect that what we want is a much smaller syringe size - maybe 5g instead of 25g - so that we have a reasonable chance of cutting down on wastage. The only alternate size of container I can see are 1kg, 500g and 250g tubs.

Jim.

It would probably be worth it (if possible) to get into the syringe, scoop out the solder and work a little liquid flux into the mix, put it into a jar and leave a smaller amount in the syringe. When the level gets low, decant a bit out of the jar into the syringe, checking the consistency each time.
Oh and another vote for the safety flux here too. It even smells better than "ordinary" flux too.
Jon F

 

[oldravendale]

Brian,

Here's the datasheet for the solder cream I have

http://www.datasheets360.com/pdf/-2208185409048886410

Under packaging on Page 2, you will see that it states a minimum shelf life of six months when stored sealed at 5C - 10C. If you assume a conservative element in the data sheet the shelf life for us could be a good bit more than the six months. Certainly I have been pleasantly surprised to find mine still useable after purchasing it a year ago but it has been stored in the fridge and only taken out when used. It was off Ebay and very cheap - £3.95 - so very probably being sold off at the end of its shelf life and I didn't expect it to survive too long in a useable state. My first ever syringe from Brian Lewis at C&L had to be thrown out after a year or two with only a small fraction used. I suspect that this is one of these products where the profits are in what's thrown away.

I do note that it also states in the packaging section that the product can separate with storage but can be restored to good condition by working it. I wonder if this is what I am effectively doing by puddling the cream on the end of the syringe nozzle with a cocktail stick.

I suspect that what we want is a much smaller syringe size - maybe 5g instead of 25g - so that we have a reasonable chance of cutting down on wastage. The only alternate size of container I can see are 1kg, 500g and 250g tubs.

Jim.

Useful stuff, Jim, and thank you.

I wonder what the C & L solder actually is? I also wonder whether to remove most of the solder cream from the syringe and store it in a small but full container, in the fridge, so that the air can't get to it. I could then top the syringe up with a few ml as I use it. Hmmm! Seems like another faff so I'll probably go back to regular solder and cream/safety flux once the cream solder solidifies.

However...... the puddling procedure seems quite practical and may be a preferable route.

As you say, a smaller syringe size would actually be the answer.

Brian

 

[JimG]

It would probably be worth it (if possible) to get into the syringe, scoop out the solder and work a little liquid flux into the mix, put it into a jar and leave a smaller amount in the syringe. When the level gets low, decant a bit out of the jar into the syringe, checking the consistency each time.

Jon,

Do we know what the flux might be? I remember trying to resurrect the C&L cream with not much success.

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

It would probably be worth it (if possible) to get into the syringe, scoop out the solder and work a little liquid flux into the mix, put it into a jar and leave a smaller amount in the syringe. When the level gets low, decant a bit out of the jar into the syringe, checking the consistency each time.
Oh and another vote for the safety flux here too. It even smells better than "ordinary" flux too.
Jon F

Funny that, Jon, as my reply to Jim, before I'd seen your comments, mirror your thoughts. I'd not thought about adding flux, though, which seems a good idea.

Jon,

Do we know what the flux might be? I remember trying to resurrect the C&L cream with not much success.

Jim.

That's a good point. I may try with the safety flux when it arrives.

Brian

 

[Buckjumper]

My syringe of 179 cream has been stored in a wet, unheated workshop followed by a metal storage container on the drive since the flood in February, and thus subject to the ravages of frost and heat.

Having recently retrieved it, I found it had formed a small crust in the top of the nozzle, but with that plug removed was easy enough to apply, and with a little yellow flux at the joint, it worked as well as ever.

Bear in mind I probably bought it at Kettering last year so it's been open for at least 18 months.

 

[oldravendale]

Bear in mind I probably bought it at Kettering last year so it's been open for at least 18 months.

Oh joy indeed! Just hope I don't have to go through your experience to make the stuff last properly.

Great to have you back in productive mode.

Best regards.

Brian

 

[JimG]

My syringe of 179 cream has been stored in a wet, unheated workshop followed by a metal storage container on the drive since the flood in February, and thus subject to the ravages of frost and heat.

Adrian,

Which could be the perfect storage conditions according to the datasheet, although maybe not to be recommended.

Jim.

 

[Jon Fitness]

Jon,

Do we know what the flux might be? I remember trying to resurrect the C&L cream with not much success.

Jim.

I had a jar of paste years ago and I was advised to simply add a little water to the mix if it got too solid. I doubt if its much more complicated than powdered solder in a flux suspension.
JF

 

[OzzyO]

Hi Brian,

The pipework is important, and you are making a grand job of it. Glad to be of service with the T joint (spotted ).

I have a 9F in my shelf queen queue - in my case, they have to queue for years to achieve the status of shelf queen. Unfortunately, the Allan Harris wheels it is running on (think of the cost for a 9F ) don't go through my 31.5mm pointwork, so I have to extract them, which means removing the brake gear, and then turn them down to Slater's profile.

I have the profile tool, but not as yet the cojones ...... Dear Colin......

Cheers

Richard

Is it the Harris wheels that are the problem, or your track laying?
On a 9F you did have a number of wheel profiles, the inside set had approx 1/8" removed from the inside on the flange.

 

[Dikitriki]

Is it the Harris wheels that are the problem, or your track laying?

I think my track laying is adequate. So it must be the Harris wheels. I'm yet to rediscover the 9F, but I shall let you know the issues when I do.

Richard

 

[oldravendale]

I'm pleased to resurrect this thread, as work is well on the way again on the DJH 9F - it was a bit of a shelf queen for a while. Pictures to follow.

I've used Mickoo's photos a great deal and they've been a tremendous help, so thanks again, Mick - some of the DJH interpretations of the pipework are a bit fanciful. And here is where I've hit another problem. About the only area Mick couldn't get to was the pipework under the LHS of the cab, and looking at the photos I have the drawings look a bit mixed up. I can probably cobble something together from the photos I already have but just wonder whether anyone has a definitive shot of the pipework under the LHS cab. If not all is not lost as I think I can make up a fair representation but it would be better to have a proper reference to which I can work.

As ever, all help gratefully received.

Brian

 

[Dikitriki]

but just wonder whether anyone has a definitive shot of the pipework under the LHS cab.

Hi Brian

http://fraserker.com/britannia/9f_pix/9f008.jpg

Incidentally, I have found my 9F, and am pleased to advise that the Harris wheels are fine, it's the sideplay that isn't.

Richard

 

[demu1037]

Hi Brian

http://fraserker.com/britannia/9f_pix/9f008.jpg

Richard

Richard & Brian,

Note this is only 'definitive' for a Crew built WR allocated, Swindon overhauled loco (fitted with ATC) as preserved, other locos may have some of the pipe runs in different locations, most will not have ATC, some will have AWS - the box is different, mounted on the gussets and (often) accompanied by the timing reservoir, on the plus side the draincock control valve & water connections are 'standard' as is (probably) the vacuum pipe!




No AWS/ATC

AWS battery box & vacuum reservoior

Andy

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Andy and Richard.

Those are both very helpful. The DJH drawings and model photos within the instructions show the larger of those pipes turning at the rear of the frames and then wandering in the general direction of the outside underneath of the cab. When tried this seemed most unlikely and the pics you've provided will allow me to create something which at least has some prototypical credence - and Andy, I note all your caveats.

As promised, more photos soon, but probably not until after the weekend.

Best regards.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's an update on progress so far. Seems inordinately slow compared with Roger Scanlon's far more difficult Crosti kit, but I'm sure it will eventually get there.

I took about a week to get the valve gear running smoothly, but it's there now and just needs running in. Those rear ash pan door castings just above the rear driving wheels will need moving back by .5mm or so, just so the wheel doesn't clout them. The front door castings have adequate clearance.



Just the link to the lubricators on both sides to complete. That bogie desperately needs some side control which will also be done next time the body comes off.



Here's the below footplate pipework RHS, using the photos which Mickoo supplied. Overall pretty satisfactory, I think. The pipework below the cab is fixed and designed so that it's fixed to the chassis and has no physical connection to the footplate/body assembly. But I've probably made a tactical error in solder fitting this above and below footplate pipework. How on earth am I going to spray the loco and protect the pipework which looks good in it's original finish? I guess I should have assembled this in units without soldering the fittings to the boiler, then they could have been clipped and glued in place after spraying. Hmmm. I'll give that some thought - it may yet be possible to unsolder the fittings to the boiler and keep them separate from the loco to be attached later. On the other hand, I think most if not all the exterior pipework on Evening Star is brass rather than copper in which case use of a brass coloured polishable paint/coating may do the trick.



Here's a less than good shot of the below cab pipework on the LHS. The prototype photos above show this to be entirely wrong - you can see where it turns round the back of the frame and then springs outwards to fit under the cab, towards the outside edge. This will now be removed and a proper pipe run will be made. Fortunately I'd decided this didn't look right when I did the dry run so it's not fixed.



Here it is, on a piece of track and in all it's current glory. It's actually starting to look like a 9F.

Pick up is from plungers on the leading and trailing driving wheels and wipers on all six tender wheels - just as a reminder, this was a club purchase of a partly completed loco insofar as the chassis of loco and tender were built so, short of completely rebuilding the chassis, any form of compensation or springing was a no-no. However, on test it has run very well, even over indifferent track, probably down to the weight of the loco.

Brian

 

[Scale7JB]

Looking lovely that, mate..!

Did you use delrin on the axles, or just relying on the coupling rods? I've always thought the chain method to be a slight cop-out, but the chassis would have to be super accurate to work with just the rods..

JB.

 

[mickoo]

How on earth am I going to spray the loco and protect the pipework which looks good in it's original finish? Brian

Brian,

One technique I've heard is to coat the copper pipework with vasaline from a cotton bud and then spray, wipe off the paint afterward with a cotton bud or soft fibre brush, that should leave the pipework clean and paint free. I've not tried this but it seems feasable.

BTW how are you getting on with that flux we spoke about earlier.

Having seen yours and Rogers 9F's I think I should start mine, mine's a Crosti, but post conversion back to a standard boiler layout, probably 22 or 24 as both worked in and around Cheshire in my modelling time frame.

 

[Ressaldar]

Brian,

One technique I've heard is to coat the copper pipework with vasaline from a cotton bud and then spray, wipe off the paint afterward with a cotton bud or soft fibre brush, that should leave the pipework clean and paint free. I've not tried this but it seems feasable.

Brian,

when I started to read your post, especially the part regarding painting and copper pipework, I started composing a reply almost the same as Mickoo has done. It is the technique that I have used on a number of models and works quite well and if the is a slight overspray/leakage of black paint, then thin that down as part of the weathering process.

The loco looks the part and I look forward to seeing the video of it pulling a rake of eleven Summers bogies up Storeton bank towards Shotton

cheers

Mike

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, chaps for your comments. The Vaseline trick is a good one and not one I've heard of previously, so another technique to add to the arsenal.

Yes, I am using the Delrin drive to the centre axle. It seems to work well but is a real fiddle to join up amongst all the brake gear etc. It is quiet and responsive in reverse, but, although responsive in forward motion, is noticeably noisier. Not objectionably so, and I'm hoping it'll run in. I've lubricated the chain with a silicon, plastic friendly powder which has helped. Personally I'm not a fan of this drive, and if building from new would probably not go down this route.

Mick - the flux is super. I was using a paste flux for pretty well everything but started to notice that some of the white metal joints were coming apart, possibly because the flux, being so sticky, had not boiled off. I've cleaned up the surfaces of these joints and rejoined using the safety flux and it's worked well on every case.

Useful thought about the weathering, Mike, and one I might have to use. However, sadly not the correct loco for pulling those Summers bogies as it has no compressed air gear. Never mind - at least I won't have to build the bogies to go with it!

Brian