Finney 7 LNER A4

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 1 October 2018.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick and Richard,
    Thanks fof the heads up on the sand boxes. Just looked at the instructions on line and it's clear that I have totally misinterpreted them. First up next will be getting them off to correct. I should have realised that with the brackets on the void side, that face should be on the outside. Having cut the whole of the etched sand boxes off also threw me, but what a dozy git I am. If I get them off intact and turn around they will then be more prototypical (I think) as the outer face of the boxes will be inset from the frame edge.

    As to the brake hanger pivot fouling the rear compensation beam, I don't see any reference to it. The instructions mention the rod fouling the beam if you go for the partial compensation option, with fixed rear axle and front and middle compensated. Still it stands to reason that the same applies. In any case I prefer my option as the pivot rod is more robust if it crosses the frame. I had already fitted the middle one before the sand boxes so had to cut it, but will I replace it when I re-do the boxes. Happy days.
    Rob Pulham likes this.
  2. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, I'll have another look at the instructions to see if it can be made any clearer for the future, we'll also add in your tip for those who also like to retain the brake hanger as a complete wire for strength.

    I will also rewrite the section on the sand boxes for more clarity after your experiences. What seems obvious to the developer often isn't to the builder.

    Did you by chance remove the cast lugs on the sandbox, we've checked the masters and the ones supplied for the instruction photos and they have fixing flanges. I'm going to take a flying guess and reason that you removed them was because the instructions said so but that part of the instruction is supposed to be aimed at the frame 2D tabs for the original sand boxes. Again more clarity needed.

    All in all its still looking very good :thumbs:
    3 LINK and Rob Pulham like this.
  3. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick,
    Yes, I lost the fixing flanges. That in itself should alerted me to there being something amiss. Why would you put the flanges on the inner edge? Like I said, I'm a dozy git. Still on the bright side, I soaked the edges of the boxes with cellulose thinners and have been able to prise them off with a craft knife, so no problem. Just need to clean up the epoxy residue from inside the frames and refit.

    It's a big advantage posting builds on here as somebody will nearly always spot your mistakes at a stage when it's relatively easy to correct. Thanks again Mick.
  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    If I'd looked at my photos of Bittern, I'd have seen that the inspection plate on the slope was on the inside. At least the outer face of the sand box will now be inset from the frame as it should be. Every cloud etc...….
    I assume the gizmo at the bottom is a post preservation item????


  5. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, no problems and that makes sense now. Regarding the sand boxes, we will send you two new ones right away if that's ok with you?

    The additional part in your photo is a steam sand trap fitting, it's common to a lot of LNER engines. It's not in the original kits but we have a new casting for the W1 kits which can be used if required. I'm not sure if we have any excess stock yet for additional sales. Let me see what I can do for you if you want a couple of them.
    P A D and Dog Star like this.
  6. Peter Cross

    Peter Cross Western Thunderer

    Peter looking at the above photo I would say the sandbox angles out and is level with the outside of the frames.
  7. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, the other one :D yes the photo does look like it's angled out but it isn't, it's an illusion caused by a flash shadow from the camera flash I expect. My photos are at home so no access right now to post up.

    One thing to note is that the new sandboxed are hollow all around this means that if you cut the trapezoid shape off the bottom of the frames then part of the hollow may show. This is certainly true on the A3/A1 kits where the trapezoid shape should be retained as a fixing and location guide. It does however mean that the outside face of the sandbox is now flush with the frames. I'll have to check the A4 masters as I think we beefed up the lower portion so that it blocked this area off and allowed the trapezoid area to be removed.

    In an ideal world on the A3/A1 we would also half etch this trapezoid area on the outside, in conjunction with the new casting. Thus giving the impression of an inset sandbox but retain its function as a fixing guide. Unfortunately doing a whole new sheet just for this one aspect is prohibitive.

    However, there are long term plans to uplift the LNER Pacifics (as well as filling in some gaps with new models) with new detailed frames and other derivatives, including a new etch for a 107 boiler with combustion chamber firebox.
  8. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick,
    Very kind on the offer of the parts, when it's me that screwed up. The sandboxes are fine and I can re-fit them. As far as the missing fixing brackets are concerned, they will only be missed when the great hand in the sky picks it up. I have also just found a pair of sand valves in my spare castings, so no worries there either.

    The sandbox look flush to the inside edge of the frame to me, but I'm not sure if it's angled inwards slightly towards the bottom, rather than vertical.
  9. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, ok, the offer is there if you change your mind :thumbs:

    The sand box outside face....that which joins to the frame inside vertical as far as I can ascertain from the drawings, my own photos and those taken by my clandestone opo inside NRM on SNG ;)

    Actually, there are a lot of good photos on the SNG website anyway of the rebuild, mine just happened to be specific areas not covered by the run of the mill photos on the web.

  10. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, I'm just editing the master instructions in light of your recent findings. Just to clarify, this is what the master instructions read as, can you confirm that this is what you are seeing, or not seeing please.


    This is in the general frame preparation section and should not be under the partial or full compensation sections. I'd like to find out where the discrepancy is so that we can edit it for the future :thumbs:

    Mick D
  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    My apologies as I've sent you on a wild goose chase. What you have shown is exactly what's in my instructions, which I have somehow misinterpreted.

    Having removed the sandboxed and cleaned up, I also removed the trimmed brake hanger pivots.

    Before refitting the sandboxed I decided to add the nut and bolt detail to the spring shackles. I had some spare castings from the 4MT so used these rather than 14BA nuts and bolts. First I drilled the shackles to a depth of about for the bolts to recess into. I drilled two holes in a length of coffee stirrer to aid holding and lining them up for soldering.
    Here they are in place before trimming and filing.
    After that I refitted the sand boxes after first drilling through both sides to allow the pivot rod for the brake hangers to pass through. 20181109_203433.jpg
    And from the side. The light is casting a shadow and gives the impression that the box side slopes inwards, but it is in fact vertical. 20181109_203705.jpg
    Next the bogie wheel splashers were added.

    And then onto to the rear cartazzi frames.
    Here are the main parts ready to go on. 20181109_204340.jpg

    And in place. The parts are only tack soldered while ill checked that all was square,for no, but will be completed next. 20181109_203608.jpg

    Here are a couple of shots of the whole frames. 20181109_204150.jpg 20181109_204118.jpg

    And on the wheels.
    20181109_203349.jpg 20181109_203309.jpg

    Looks good from the side too.

    Hopefully no cock ups this time, but if anybody spots anything, just shout.
  12. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Nope, no mistakes that I can see, all looks good to me :D

    Nicely recovered :thumbs:
  13. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick

    As a lay observer and as a suggestion for avoidance of doubt perhaps you may wish to update the text BRAKE HANGER PIVOT 0.8mm WIRE (highlighted) in the diagram below to read:

    BRAKE HANGER PIVOT 0.8mm WIRE (centre axle only - trim flush with inside of frames if using compensation beams) - or similar.

    mickoo likes this.
  14. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer


    Yes that is another option, sadly though that's the front hanger highlighted ;):D, the middle one is hidden by the cruciform stay and lubricator/reversing lever bracket (F7). But your point is valid, it should be possible to add the relevant text and try to highlight the right one though :thumbs:

    One thing we are keen to avoid is sensory overload, cluttering up the drawings with so much information that the end user becomes almost blind, in addition I'm rapidly finding that no matter what you write, every single other person will understand it differently.

    We did a safety and communication course last week, one of the exercises in communication was, without the use of hands or any other aids, other than verbal, we had to get the other person to draw a triangle (or any other simple shape); to make it harder the drawer did not know what he had to draw.

    In a class of twelve (different shapes) not one got the shape correct that their partner tried described, doesn't say much for us engineers lol but was a valid exercise in showing how difficult it is in getting just the simplest information across.

    One other aspect we're (certainly I am) discovering is that end users tend to fall into two broad camps, those that prefer written instructions and those that prefer visual ones, I'm in the latter camp and pretty much never read any of the written section, relying on the drawings or diagrams, even when building Finney7 kits.

    FWIW I've also added the 'be' in 'will need to ....cut flush', the 'be' having been previously missing, despite the LNER instructions being proof read at least half a dozen times through out their construction.

    By far the hardest part in any kit is the working up of instructions, the reworked originals take weeks and weeks of work, new ones take months.
  15. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    You mean we need to read the instructions - that'll be a first for me. :))

    Just out of curiosity - are you left-handed? I'm left-handed and I remember reading somewhere that those of us that are cack-handed are better at visualising things in pictures rather than a description. Certainly for myself I'm hopeless at following written directions but if someone shows me a map so I can visualise where I need to be then I can see it straight away.
    P A D likes this.
  16. parky

    parky Western Thunderer

    Interesting hypothesis Adrian, as a fellow lefty the visual is my first port of call
  17. SimonT

    SimonT Western Thunderer

    Welcome to the wonderful world of technical documents:D.

    In designing the F7 A3 page layout I wanted to ensure that we met the needs of those who use pictures, those who use words and those who do both. What we put on a page and how we do it constantly evolves; I am sure that once we have all the kits re-released that we will review the early instructions against the latest standards. We value the feedback as it is very difficult from the expert (knowledgeable) position to see gaps in information which the person with no knowledge sees straight way.

    I'm a very strong visual brain but use the words! Mainly right handed but with a stronger left eye, which made shooting a rifle a PITA!

  18. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer


    I don't think it's that good a relationship no. We've considered learning styles in the instructions to ensure we hit all bases other than auditory leading (tricky, but not impossible). Of course there's also the kinesthetic learners who will prefer to learn by trying things and never read instructions at all.

    15ish years ago I was trained to be a trainer and great emphasis was placed on adjusting training material and style to suit the learning styles of trainees. More recent reading I've done seems to indicate that effective training may not be linked to style, but more to content and environment - strangely enough :rolleyes:

    So, we should all be good users of instructions for locomotive kits as the content should be relevant and useful, and the environment should be our own to influence.

    Well, that's one theory anyway :))

    Sorry for the diversion, Peter,

    P A D likes this.
  19. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Adrian, very interesting, I am left handed.

    Maybe we need to ship left handed and right handed instructions....only joking :D

    As Simon notes, the instructions are evolving all the time, this is one of the reasons they are now on line, to reprint after every revision is prohibitive.

    However, as expected, revisions bring a whole new level of document control to the table, and that in it's self, is an evolving and constantly changing environment.
    adrian likes this.
  20. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    “no matter what you write, every single other person will understand it differently“

    That concisely explains religion and the law...

    P A D likes this.