7mm Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
- Thread starter Dikitriki
- Start date
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Ha!
Are you saying that you won't put the dummy fishplates in when you do your trackwork?
Anyway, I've just had 2 deliveries from the postie - a sound chip for my Spam Can, XL with a 40mm speaker, and a whole load of point rodding and signal wire components from C&L.
Work for the day has just been abandoned (wrong sort of leaves on the keyboard ;D)
Richard
Ha!
Are you saying that you won't put the dummy fishplates in when you do your trackwork?
Anyway, I've just had 2 deliveries from the postie - a sound chip for my Spam Can, XL with a 40mm speaker, and a whole load of point rodding and signal wire components from C&L.
Work for the day has just been abandoned (wrong sort of leaves on the keyboard ;D)
Richard
adrian
Flying Squad
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
I can't claim any great expertise on ballasting having only completed a few short length for a test track, so limited experience compared to others on here.
However what I have done is used copydex rather than pva. PVA sets rather too hard for my liking making the track too rigid, hence copydex. I also struggled with the eye dropper technique as the drops always seemed to dislodge the ballast as it landed. I couldn't get on with the spray bottle technique either as it just seemed to coat everything bar the ballast.
Current method is to make up the track panel, a good coating of dilute copydex on the foam underlay, stick the track down and whilst the copydex is still wet then first sprinkle of coarse ballast. This isn't the finished level but more like a bit of hardcore. Once dry and the loose stuff is removed. I then go back over putting down dry ballast of various grades, just using fingers to get the level and shape required. I then load a good sized brush with dilute copydex and wipe it along the edge of the ballast. The mixture then gets sucked into the ballast without dislodging it.
Adrian
I can't claim any great expertise on ballasting having only completed a few short length for a test track, so limited experience compared to others on here.
However what I have done is used copydex rather than pva. PVA sets rather too hard for my liking making the track too rigid, hence copydex. I also struggled with the eye dropper technique as the drops always seemed to dislodge the ballast as it landed. I couldn't get on with the spray bottle technique either as it just seemed to coat everything bar the ballast.
Current method is to make up the track panel, a good coating of dilute copydex on the foam underlay, stick the track down and whilst the copydex is still wet then first sprinkle of coarse ballast. This isn't the finished level but more like a bit of hardcore. Once dry and the loose stuff is removed. I then go back over putting down dry ballast of various grades, just using fingers to get the level and shape required. I then load a good sized brush with dilute copydex and wipe it along the edge of the ballast. The mixture then gets sucked into the ballast without dislodging it.
Adrian
3 LINK
Western Thunderer
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Hi Richard,
Nice to see it all coming together now, personally I enjoy building the permanent way almost on par with loco building 8). Just a quick question ( as usual ), do you paint/spray the rail sides after ballasting and then a light all over dusting of say sleeper grime ? Or do you just use say sleeper grime colour for an over all appearance including the sleepers, then add a few oil/grease stains where the locos are held. Sorry to waffle but it's a vast subject in itself, I remember seeing Mr Welch's Hursley at Central Hall all those years ago and I have never seen nothing on par since that day when it comes to realism, such attention to detail
.
Regards, Martyn.
Dikitriki said:
Hi Richard,
Nice to see it all coming together now, personally I enjoy building the permanent way almost on par with loco building 8). Just a quick question ( as usual ), do you paint/spray the rail sides after ballasting and then a light all over dusting of say sleeper grime ? Or do you just use say sleeper grime colour for an over all appearance including the sleepers, then add a few oil/grease stains where the locos are held. Sorry to waffle but it's a vast subject in itself, I remember seeing Mr Welch's Hursley at Central Hall all those years ago and I have never seen nothing on par since that day when it comes to realism, such attention to detail
.Regards, Martyn.
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
I would imagine that such a giant device may be rather hard to control, and you could end up with a flood of gluing medium that would wash half the ballast away. :scratch:
On the other hand, the thought of doing all your track with an eye-dropper is rather eye-watering in it's own way....
If/when I bring to fruition my HO plans I intend to use a method similar to what Adrian has posted, but maybe not using Copydex - I've heard it rather stinks a bit??... and that would not go down well with SWMBO
A Turkey Baster..??!!?? Blimey Phill, don't do things by half, eh..??Phill Dyson said:I do have a cunning plan ;D, I'm thinking of using a Turkey Baster rather than a eye dropper (god knows if it will work )
Phill :wave:
I would imagine that such a giant device may be rather hard to control, and you could end up with a flood of gluing medium that would wash half the ballast away. :scratch:
On the other hand, the thought of doing all your track with an eye-dropper is rather eye-watering in it's own way....
If/when I bring to fruition my HO plans I intend to use a method similar to what Adrian has posted, but maybe not using Copydex - I've heard it rather stinks a bit??... and that would not go down well with SWMBO
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Hi Martyn
The track colour bit has caused us some problems in that we have to match what we do to the parts of the original that we retained - or at least blend it in some way.
What we are doing in spraying the track a slightly satin black before ballasting - partly as a primer and partly to start the colouring of the rails. We then ballast which is the point we are at in the photograph I posted. Once we are satisfied with the ballast (and the point rodding, signal pulls, facing locks etc.) we will spray a general track colour over everything. That will colour the sleepers and rails, but only slightly darken the
ballasting depending on how far we want to go. Then we go to town with dry brushing/ further sprays/ ash and oil deposits.
That's the theory. Watch this space as they say.
We had another working party today, 8 of us doing all sorts of different things. I was very pleased, and honoured, to welcome Geoff Taylor to our group and his day's work saw the group of 3 sets of houses at the station end on the outside of the curve transformed by his magic paint brush. They were good before, but even better now.
DCC is still not giving us consistent running yet. I think we need an expert to advise on DCC CV tweaking and a few other issues. However, we have 6 months to sort out the pesky little gremlins.
Onwards and upwards
Cheers
Richard
3 LINK said:Hi Richard,
Nice to see it all coming together now, personally I enjoy building the permanent way almost on par with loco building 8). Just a quick question ( as usual ), do you paint/spray the rail sides after ballasting and then a light all over dusting of say sleeper grime ? Or do you just use say sleeper grime colour for an over all appearance including the sleepers, then add a few oil/grease stains where the locos are held. Sorry to waffle but it's a vast subject in itself, I remember seeing Mr Welch's Hursley at Central Hall all those years ago and I have never seen nothing on par since that day when it comes to realism, such attention to detail
Regards, Martyn.
Hi Martyn
The track colour bit has caused us some problems in that we have to match what we do to the parts of the original that we retained - or at least blend it in some way.
What we are doing in spraying the track a slightly satin black before ballasting - partly as a primer and partly to start the colouring of the rails. We then ballast which is the point we are at in the photograph I posted. Once we are satisfied with the ballast (and the point rodding, signal pulls, facing locks etc.) we will spray a general track colour over everything. That will colour the sleepers and rails, but only slightly darken the
ballasting depending on how far we want to go. Then we go to town with dry brushing/ further sprays/ ash and oil deposits.
That's the theory. Watch this space as they say.
We had another working party today, 8 of us doing all sorts of different things. I was very pleased, and honoured, to welcome Geoff Taylor to our group and his day's work saw the group of 3 sets of houses at the station end on the outside of the curve transformed by his magic paint brush. They were good before, but even better now.
DCC is still not giving us consistent running yet. I think we need an expert to advise on DCC CV tweaking and a few other issues. However, we have 6 months to sort out the pesky little gremlins.
Onwards and upwards
Cheers
Richard
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Interesting. I went to DCC about 12 years ago and almost instantly found I had better running. I'm not sure what I could do to help, but I'd be happy to assist in any way I can. Have you got a SPROG and the ability to send me JMRI files? Otherwise we could be here a while...
Steph
Dikitriki said:
Interesting. I went to DCC about 12 years ago and almost instantly found I had better running. I'm not sure what I could do to help, but I'd be happy to assist in any way I can. Have you got a SPROG and the ability to send me JMRI files? Otherwise we could be here a while...
Steph
Simon
Flying Squad
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
What a great idea, I will look one out next time I'm in town.
Re ballasting, I have found that the key to getting the PVA or whatever to "drop" nicely on to the ballast is to get everything thoroughly wet beforehand, with a bit of washing up liquid added to the water. In the garden last year I was having problems with the sun drying out the ballast before I got to the glue stage so a turkey baster is a really good idea.
Sorry for thread hi-jack, I think Heyside is a magnificent project, keep the updates coming please, it's a right "proper" railway
Phill Dyson said:I do have a cunning plan ;D, I'm thinking of using a Turkey Baster rather than a eye dropper (god knows if it will work )
Phill :wave:
What a great idea, I will look one out next time I'm in town.
Re ballasting, I have found that the key to getting the PVA or whatever to "drop" nicely on to the ballast is to get everything thoroughly wet beforehand, with a bit of washing up liquid added to the water. In the garden last year I was having problems with the sun drying out the ballast before I got to the glue stage so a turkey baster is a really good idea.
Sorry for thread hi-jack, I think Heyside is a magnificent project, keep the updates coming please, it's a right "proper" railway
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Hi Steph
I would very much welcome your offer of assistance. Our experience of DCC is [s:b6g3dugg]a bit[/s:b6g3dugg] very frustrating at the moment. 2 illustrations.
10001 is fitted with an ESU Lok Sound XL sound chip from Howes. The sound is great and it runs pretty well - until all control is lost. By which I mean it won't respond to the handset at all, it just keeps going on at whatever speed and sound it was set to. This typically manifests itself when we want to stop it, when it does decelerate quite happily, but not to a stop. With the speedsetting at nil, it just keeps going....and going. I wonder whether it is the motors in that there are 2 big DJH motors in parallel (no extra weight). I would also say that Tony Geary (Dibateg) also has similar problems with his DJH 31 which has exactly the same motor configuration.
I have just remotored my 2P with a Maxon ABC motor/gearbox, Lenz gold chip with power 1. Running is very smooth, but the noise of the motor is unacceptable at slower speeds (back EMF issue?)
We do have a SPROG and laptop, but I can't get the data to you immediately.
From my point of view, I have turned 2 reliable perfectly running locos into drains, and that wasn't the object of the (expensive) exercise.
I hope to see you at Kettering anyway, but any help you or anyone else can give would be gratefully received.
Richard
Steph Dale said:
Hi Steph
I would very much welcome your offer of assistance. Our experience of DCC is [s:b6g3dugg]a bit[/s:b6g3dugg] very frustrating at the moment. 2 illustrations.
10001 is fitted with an ESU Lok Sound XL sound chip from Howes. The sound is great and it runs pretty well - until all control is lost. By which I mean it won't respond to the handset at all, it just keeps going on at whatever speed and sound it was set to. This typically manifests itself when we want to stop it, when it does decelerate quite happily, but not to a stop. With the speedsetting at nil, it just keeps going....and going. I wonder whether it is the motors in that there are 2 big DJH motors in parallel (no extra weight). I would also say that Tony Geary (Dibateg) also has similar problems with his DJH 31 which has exactly the same motor configuration.
I have just remotored my 2P with a Maxon ABC motor/gearbox, Lenz gold chip with power 1. Running is very smooth, but the noise of the motor is unacceptable at slower speeds (back EMF issue?)
We do have a SPROG and laptop, but I can't get the data to you immediately.
From my point of view, I have turned 2 reliable perfectly running locos into drains, and that wasn't the object of the (expensive) exercise.
I hope to see you at Kettering anyway, but any help you or anyone else can give would be gratefully received.
Richard
Scale7JB
Western Thunderer
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Hi Richard, have you checked for any external radio frequency interferance? It can make a difference to things like that. Wiring runs on the main bus bars need to be terminated properly with capacitors and resistors, and main bus wires should be twisted around each other to stop further interferance. Also I've found that dirty rails can make a
difference to running too, as the onboard chips can't get the information to tell them what to do, though I think this might be reduced with NS rail, rather then the steel rail we are using on west Mersea.
JB.
Hi Richard, have you checked for any external radio frequency interferance? It can make a difference to things like that. Wiring runs on the main bus bars need to be terminated properly with capacitors and resistors, and main bus wires should be twisted around each other to stop further interferance. Also I've found that dirty rails can make a
difference to running too, as the onboard chips can't get the information to tell them what to do, though I think this might be reduced with NS rail, rather then the steel rail we are using on west Mersea.
JB.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s
Richard,
I think JB's got it. I've had similar problems with some of my HO stuff and I'm pretty sure it's a command interrupt on the main bus. Therefore a set of snubbers (terminations to the bus) would help solve the problem. I'd recommend wiring in series a 1w 150Ohm resistor and 0.1microfarad capacitor of suitable voltage (24v should do it). These are then connected across the ends of the bus. They'll stop signals being reflected back along the bus so reduce the amount of noise/traffic and so provide a clearer set of commands to the decoder. These aren't always necessary, but with the sort of problems you're describing they're a damned good, cheap start to a solution.
Twisted pair is a good idea for the buses, a much better idea than using screened cable even. Ferrite rings near the command station can also help; but we're getting into overkill here. In an exhibition environment we took some care to make sure that our power supplies were well protected (ferrites, seperate fusing, etc) as some DCC systems aren't well contained and can squirt considerable amounts of noise back on to the mains. Mind you, this is all good practise on analogue layouts anyway!
I'm less worried about dodgy pickup these days. 18v AC can jump most of the dirt we're likely to have, to keep the decoders powered. Capacitive coupling across any dirt seems to be a 'feature' of most modern decoders: hence Lenz and their USP technology allows you to command a loco even when there's a layer of paper between the track and wheels! Iron oxide on steel track is more of a problem as it's actually a very good insulator, on nickel-silver you should be okay though.
I'll be happy to see how your decoders are set up. I am not a fan of the Lenz decoders with coreless motors as the manual doesn't help you set up the drive. I agree that what you're describing is probably the feedback over-driving the motor. The Lenz decoder's drive can be tailored; I just can't find out how! I use Zimo or (better) ESU decoders with my coreless-motored locos, the new ESU LokPilotv4 looks like being a stunning piece of kit, although I've not used one yet (you can use an on-board PSU with it).
The Lenz and Power1 combination is one I use in smaller, conventionally-motored, tank locos with great success.
BTW - you have set your locos for digital-only operation in CV29 haven't you? It seriously impacts the quality of the running of all decoders and will allow the Power1 to actually do something, rather than just being a bit of extra weight to carry around!
I'll send you a PM with my contact details so you can drop me the JMRI files when you're ready.
Steph
Richard,
I think JB's got it. I've had similar problems with some of my HO stuff and I'm pretty sure it's a command interrupt on the main bus. Therefore a set of snubbers (terminations to the bus) would help solve the problem. I'd recommend wiring in series a 1w 150Ohm resistor and 0.1microfarad capacitor of suitable voltage (24v should do it). These are then connected across the ends of the bus. They'll stop signals being reflected back along the bus so reduce the amount of noise/traffic and so provide a clearer set of commands to the decoder. These aren't always necessary, but with the sort of problems you're describing they're a damned good, cheap start to a solution.
Twisted pair is a good idea for the buses, a much better idea than using screened cable even. Ferrite rings near the command station can also help; but we're getting into overkill here. In an exhibition environment we took some care to make sure that our power supplies were well protected (ferrites, seperate fusing, etc) as some DCC systems aren't well contained and can squirt considerable amounts of noise back on to the mains. Mind you, this is all good practise on analogue layouts anyway!
I'm less worried about dodgy pickup these days. 18v AC can jump most of the dirt we're likely to have, to keep the decoders powered. Capacitive coupling across any dirt seems to be a 'feature' of most modern decoders: hence Lenz and their USP technology allows you to command a loco even when there's a layer of paper between the track and wheels! Iron oxide on steel track is more of a problem as it's actually a very good insulator, on nickel-silver you should be okay though.
I'll be happy to see how your decoders are set up. I am not a fan of the Lenz decoders with coreless motors as the manual doesn't help you set up the drive. I agree that what you're describing is probably the feedback over-driving the motor. The Lenz decoder's drive can be tailored; I just can't find out how! I use Zimo or (better) ESU decoders with my coreless-motored locos, the new ESU LokPilotv4 looks like being a stunning piece of kit, although I've not used one yet (you can use an on-board PSU with it).
The Lenz and Power1 combination is one I use in smaller, conventionally-motored, tank locos with great success.
BTW - you have set your locos for digital-only operation in CV29 haven't you? It seriously impacts the quality of the running of all decoders and will allow the Power1 to actually do something, rather than just being a bit of extra weight to carry around!
I'll send you a PM with my contact details so you can drop me the JMRI files when you're ready.
Steph