7mm Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

[Jordan]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

I'm intrigued by the bit about "termination of the bus"...  I've not seen any mention of that elsewhere. I thought that on a roundy-roundy it was all joined to make one big loop? On someone's home end-to-end I've visited they just seemed to end the bus wires in a crimped terminal so there were no bare wires/shorting possibilities... what have I missed? :scratch:

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

JB and Steph

Thank you for your replies regarding my DCC problems - food for thought, and some issues I had not considered. I shall go to lie down in a darkened room while I think about it.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Steph Dale]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

I'm intrigued by the bit about "termination of the bus"...  I've not seen any mention of that elsewhere. I thought that on a roundy-roundy it was all joined to make one big loop? On someone's home end-to-end I've visited they just seemed to end the bus wires in a crimped terminal so there were no bare wires/shorting possibilities... what have I missed? :scratch:

Jordan,

The business with the snubbers is out there, but it's not a necessity, so not universal.  I s'pose I should have added a caveat to my previous posting to the effect that 'your mileage may vary' or 'this is for Richard; for other readers this may (or not) apply'...

One thing to quickly knock on the head though is the idea of having the command bus or track bus as a loop.  That's a pretty bad idea (induction) and all the manuals either do or should state that the bus must be open ended or terminated.  I don't know about other manufacturers, but it's in the Lenz manuals I've seen...

In terms of the need for a proper termination on the bus, well some layouts need it, some don't.  I've noticed it happens more on larger layouts or those where lots of sound-equipped locos are in use which makes me think it's probably current related.  However, it's not always so and the number of joins/connectors in the cable, points, loops, etc. all have an effect.  I know of one exhibition layout only 12' long that need terminations to the bus and yet the one I'm involved with that's permanent and 40' x 30' has never needed them.

The logic I found is this: if you've got a layout to work well on analogue it will work with DCC by just attaching the command station.  In most cases that's it.  Period.

It's just that sometimes there needs to be an odd 'tweak' to get it working as well as it can.
'Cos when it's set up properly it's very, very good.

Richard,  What DCC system are you using? - if it's an XpressNet (Lenz architecture) system it may help to terminate the XpressNet command bus too - 120Ohm resistor in that case.  And again, no loops...

Steph

 

[Dog Star]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Steph,

I very much want to understand the advice which you are offering to Richard (other readers can listen...) as I am not sure how some of the suggestions align with the way in which various UK DCC-articles describe connecting the power bus to the track.  If this is a subject of universal or more general appeal then can you please consider opening a specific topic... or alternatively please provide contact details through PM so that we can continue off topic.

thanks, Graham

 

[Steph Dale]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Steph,

I very much want to understand the advice which you are offering to Richard (other readers can listen...) as I am not sure how some of the suggestions align with the way in which various UK DCC-articles describe connecting the power bus to the track.  If this is a subject of universal or more general appeal then can you please consider opening a specific topic... or alternatively please provide contact details through PM so that we can continue off topic.

thanks, Graham

Graham,

I'm very happy to correspond with any Thunderer who can put up with my wittering on any subject - DCC included!  You'll have a PM in a moment and anyone else please feel free to PM me...

Alternatively I'll be at Kettering show on or about the Technical Committee stand if you or anyone else fancies a chat.

Steph

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Richard,  What DCC system are you using? -

Steph

Hi Steph

It's an NCE Power Pro Plus 10 amp system. I'm using 32/.2 buses and 16/.2 droppers, and I think, from memory 9 amp baseboard connectors. 4 power districts all with separate short-circuit protection. The circuit is looped or not depending on whether we connect a connector!

If it sounds like I know what I'm talking about, it's sheer coincidence.

Richard



Richard

 

[Steph Dale]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Richard,

Okay.  I've just pulled the manual from the NCE website.  You okay to continue this discussion on-line?  If so, I'll have a read of the manual and probably post back on this subject tomorrow...

Steph

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Steph

I'm very happy to continue it on-line. I think it will be very useful to me and probably to others too to keep it public. At the very least others in the Heyside group will be watching. I really need the help, as I will not accept running that is inferior to that under DC, and I've invested too much money for it not to be made to work.

Thanks

Richard

 

[28ten]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Do you want me to split this into a separate topic?

 

[Steph Dale]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Richard,

Impressively simple system.  Or alternatively a really lightweight manual...
First up - assuming you've got the 'cab bus' connected as per the diagrams it doesn't look like there's any need for a termaination there.
Second - how many boosters are you using.  Just the one I guess?
Third - The layout is a circuit, so has it got a double insulated break in it somewhere?  It may help by reducing the number of continuous loops.  Try running with one set of connectors undone.  If that improves matters let me know - a 'fix' may be quicker, easier and simpler than you think...

Sorry about the slightly brusque reply - it might make life easier for both of us if we stick to specific questions and answers.

There's some info about the twisting of the bus wires and the fitting of snubbers on p17 of the manual I have open in front of me.  They quote slightly different values to the ones I used earlier - either should be fine.

Steph

 

[Steph Dale]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Do you want me to split this into a separate topic?

I'd say not - but it's up to Richard; the info I'm helping with is specific to the problems Richard is having; most of the installations I've known of haven't had these issues, but I know they can occur...

Steph

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Do you want me to split this into a separate topic?

Cynric

At the moment, this is very relevant to Heyside in particular, so I'm happy to have it here.

Steph

I'll remind myself what the manual says later tonight, test 10001 without looping the circuit, and come back to you tomorrow. As for the brusque reply - if it gets my system working, you can be as rude as you like ;D

Richard

 

[Jordan]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Cynric

At the moment, this is very relevant to Heyside in particular, so I'm happy to have it here.

I'm very interested in the DCC bit as I have an NCE Powercab (for HO, not boosted) and have struggled a bit in the few [s:4sbi2bmw]playtimes[/s:4sbi2bmw] ...er, I mean testing sessions I've had with it... but I'm fine with the topic staying here too as the application of solutions to a particular layout can be equally informative as the theory; plus, Heyside is worth following anyway!!

/grovelling... 

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Richard,

Impressively simple system.  Or alternatively a really lightweight manual...
First up - assuming you've got the 'cab bus' connected as per the diagrams it doesn't look like there's any need for a termaination there.
Second - how many boosters are you using.  Just the one I guess?
Third - The layout is a circuit, so has it got a double insulated break in it somewhere?  It may help by reducing the number of continuous loops.  Try running with one set of connectors undone.  If that improves matters let me know - a 'fix' may be quicker, easier and simpler than you think...

Sorry about the slightly brusque reply - it might make life easier for both of us if we stick to specific questions and answers.

There's some info about the twisting of the bus wires and the fitting of snubbers on p17 of the manual I have open in front of me.  They quote slightly different values to the ones I used earlier - either should be fine.

Steph

Hi Steph

Day 2
First. I can't see that we have anything wrong with the wiring. It appears to be set up in accordance with the diagram, all indicator lights are showing what they are meant to show, and the system works.....
Second.Yes, one booster.
Third. I had a play this morning with 10001 to investigate a little further. I split the circuit so it wasn't looped but this made no difference. After 2 circuits I lost control. I had sound on. When I entered the fiddle yard I started turning the throttle down, and the reduction in sound indicated that a signal was being received at that stage. Down to 0 and the loco just kept on going (problems with 2 large motors at slow speeds?). I kept it at 0 and just left it to see when I regained control. After 10 minutes I gave up. However, when I changed handsets, I instantly regained control. Faulty handset. No. I tried the same experiment. Same result. Lost control on the second handset, but immediately had control back when I switched back to the first. :-[

Wiring  - obviously we haven't put on the snibbers, nor have we twisted the bus. Didn't know we had to as the layout was originally tested on DC before we purchased the DCC system. It was very interesting reading the manual last night. Just 2 wires huh!

At the risk of perhaps being rather simplistic, might it be a faulty chip? Maybe it's worth having one of the motors depowered and freewheeling to see if the same problems are manifested?

Regards

Richard

 

[28ten]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

It was very interesting reading the manual last night. Just 2 wires huh!

Regards

Richard

I must admit it does make me think twice  :scratch:

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

I must admit it does make me think twice  :scratch:

I think various features of DCC have been oversold, to be honest.

It can be two wires: my son's table top trainset does have two wires from the controller into the track, and shorting clips on the 7 turnouts means we can drive whichever trains we wish to - there are four to choose from. For this kind of setup, "two wires" is a perfect description, and constant brightness head and tail lamps which remain lit even if the train does not move are a definite bonus.

Would I be as simplistic for a more "serious" model railway? Possibly not, but it does depend on whether it is a conversion to DCC from DC, or built for DCC from the outset. If a conversion, then it would also depend on like power requirements, but for a two-station layout in a smaller scale, I would have a booster for the second station and use the existing wiring. Assuming it was wired for cab control or similar, then some sections would be supplied by the additional booster and some by the main command station. There would need to be an additional bus for the control circuits, but telephone cable with RJ45 plugs would take care of that.

For a new layout designed for DCC to begin with, things would be simpler than with DCC - no isolating sections required - but I would still have some separate section feeds, via car headlight  bulbs, to enable shorts to be identified and isolated, plus a control bus as above.

Both cases have more than 2 wires, but that's not the point of the exercise.

The point of the exercise, for me, is that with a good combination of control system and decoders, plus something like Decoder Pro, I can get consistent high-quality control of individual locomotives and units, and drive the trains, not the track. I said "can" there: it is not 100% guaranteed: some decoders do not work as well as others with certain motors and indeed with some control systems, and the quality of documentation is patchy in places, tending to be either too simplistic or far too complicated: plain English requires additional reading - but most of use read constructiional articles and buy things like Iain Rice's WSP books on etched and whitemetal loco kits, so where's the issue with that?

The other area of overselling is in the bells and whistles department. This is a nice feature if you like that kind of thing, but is not the be-all and end-all of DCC. Yes, terrific play value and done sensitively (low volume) it can add a lot to a model, but the primary benefit of DCC when it is working properly is consistent high quality control of individual trains.

Richard's problems are probably not unique, and there is probably a solution out there somewhere on the net, but it may be that without an expert, or at least someone experienced in DCC, paying a visit that it takes some time to resolve.

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Hi

For the avoidance of doubt. Heyside has been rebuilt purely as a DCC layout from the outset - all existing wiring stripped out, no isolating sections, proper buses, droppers to every piece of rail, 4 power districts, all with short circuit potection etc. etc.

My opinion is that it's nearly there, just a final tweak to sort it - but I do accept that the final solution (and I'm not talking glide properties of an NCE controller) is not necessarily either easy or quick.

Richard

 

[28ten]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

I think various features of DCC have been oversold, to be honest.

Very true 
I am not afraid of either computers or wiring, but I had been under the misguided impression that one chucked a chip in a loco, wired the layout with two wires and hey ho job done. I am highly unlikely to have a layout the size of Heyside so i doubt (hope!) I would not have the same problems, but it still seems more complicated than I had been led to believe by the marketing hype, but then, isnt that true of all technology?

 

[Dikitriki]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

Very true Cynric.

To be fair the wiring is simple, so was setting up the controllers and handsets - couldn't have been easier.

What has surprised me - maybe my ignorance - is that the chips are not plug and play. And you have to wade through a whole mass of stuff to even have a clue what you're doing.

My first chip was in an Austin 7. Lenz Gold and power 1. Mashima motor and 40:1 gearbox, built donkeys years ago. Fantastic. ran superbly from the off without me altering a setting. Nothing to it I thought!

Then 10001 which apart from the fact it won't stop is great.

Then a 2P. Lenz Gold and power 1, but this time the motor/gearbox was a Red Arrow from Chaplin. Ran brilliantly without any adjustment to CVs....but, the motor had too high a power consumption and every 5 minutes or so, the overload protection cut in (brilliant feature). It cooled down then was off again, until the next cut out. I changed the motor to an ABC with Maxon, and the running was rubbish (very 'graunchy' at low speed). Now, I haven't yet begun to fiddle with the CV settings on this one, but it is an illustration that it is not all straight forward.

I will get there, and I do think the advantages of DCC are significant, particularly for a large exhibition layout, but for sure there is a very steep learning curve.

Richard

 

[Dog Star]

Heyside: 7mm L&Y, late 50s/early 60s

What has surprised me - is that the chips are not plug and play. And you have to wade through a whole mass of stuff to even have a clue what you're doing.

Then a 2P....
....  I changed the motor to an ABC with Maxon, and the running was rubbish.... Now, I haven't yet begun to fiddle with the CV settings on this one, but it is an illustration that it is not all straight forward.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Quagmire comes to mind...  and sometimes I think DCC is as convoluted as the story lines of Family Guy.  We started with Lenz control gear and TCS decoders for simple motors with fold-up gearboxes.  Then we obtained an ABC with Maxon.... running was good yet there was a niggling feeling that maybe the running ought to be better.  I spoke to Mr. ABC about matching his motors to decoders and my impression is that Mr. ABC understands what needs to be done to the CV tables to get the best out of his motor/bearbox combinations.  I asked for guidance and received by e-mail a configuration map for my motor, including suggested parameters for start voltage, max voltage and speed step table.

regards, Graham