LNWR Precedent

adrian

Flying Squad
Thanks, Nick, I'm finding that .010" is showing quite a bit of resistance.

Jon
Sounds like the 0.010" is half-hard n/s sheet. There are different grades of hardness with n/s sheet. If you can find some soft grade n/s sheet it is significantly easier to bend, I have some soft 16thou sheet and have formed belpaire fireboxes shapes quite easily just using finger pressure around a silver steel rod.
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Not much progress recently, what with the G3 Society Annual Show and then the Newsletter, and as I write this the sun is shining (at last) which doubtless will mean a summons from the Head Gardener. In between whiles, here are the tender buffers.

The heads and stocks are fairly straight forward turnings. Here are the stocks rough turned:

Tender buffer stocks.png

and fine turned and polished.

Tender buffer 1.png

Drilling holes for the rivets, using the rotary table to get an even pattern. That drill is 0.8mm diameter and I decided that the hole is far too deep, so I drilled most of the way using a larger drill and left a couple of millimetres to break through. The rivets turned out to be a good push fit and would probably have held themselves in place, but I added some epoxy to make sure.

Tender buffer 2.png

Here is the assembly. The stock is drilled deep enough to accommodate the head and the spring compressed, and then continued at a clearance diameter for the screw. The back face is counterbored quite deeply so that the head of the screw remains in the hole when the spring is fully compressed. That way the buffer is fully self-contained.

Tender buffer 3.png

Nick
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Now all the soldering of the chassis has been finished, I can attach the plastic parts: axleboxes, springs and water scoop.

Tender chassis 1.png

Tender chassis 2.png

The leaf springs are dummies, the actual springing is a coil spring between each leaf spring and the axlebox. One of the compromises one accepts in a working model, and hopefully not too noticeable.

Tender spring.png

The next big task will be the brake shoes and levers, which is another assembly of lots of little parts.

Nick
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
All very nice indeed Nick. Next time you have the camera out I'd be interested to see the clearance between the rear wheels and the bufferbeam, with the springs compressed!

Mike
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Each brake pad is attached to a curved frame that has a pivot hole at each end. The whole assembly is pretty nearly 2D, and I thought laser cutting was an option but I discovered that the process wouldn't allow the small pivot holes to be cut accurately enough (and perhaps not at all) in what is quite thick material. So back to the traditional methods, and with lots of little parts, and multiple parts at that, another jig is called for.

This jig is mainly made from a nice offcut of hardwood. Metal would suck all the heat out of the soldering iron. The pivots are simple turnings and are held vertically on accurately located pins. The frame itself is rolled from brass strip.

Tender brake 1.png

The next photo show these parts assembled in the jig ready for soldering.


Tender brake 2.png

And here is a "before and after" photo. On the right are the first few frames assembled, on the left some rolled strip for the next few, and in the background the turned pivots.

Tender brake 3.png

Now the soldering jig is turned into a drilling jig to make one hole to attach the brake pad and another for the crossbars that run between adjacent brakes on opposite sides of the tender. The holes themselves were first drilled in a spare piece of curved frame material and act as a guide for drilling the actual frames.

Tender brake 4.png

And here is the finished product. Next up will be the brake pads.

Tender brake 5.png

Nick
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
The brake blocks are a more complicated shape than they might appear. They are formed of two circular arcs, but the arcs are different radii and different centres. They could be done on the rotary table, but it would be a tricky setup. Time to bring on my new Secret Weapon - a CNC mill.

Having seen Mike Palmer's machine in action, and occasionally used his services, it's something I have long aspired to. A few months ago the stars aligned and I started building one, based largely around Sherline components. It's a bit on the light side so I've had to experiment with feeds and speeds to get good results. The tender was the first project where I tried it out for real.

It's great to be able to create a component in F360, then use it to work out and simulate on the computer screen a cutting strategy, and download a machining file. This is a brake block cut in the end of a bar of stock. The finsh is good enough that it only needed a quick rub over with a fine file.

Brake block 1.png

The complete set of blocks, in order of manufacture left to right. Look closely and you will see how the shape was improved as I gradually refined the setup and the program. Still very much on the learning curve.

Brake block 2.png

At last I could do a trial assembly of the brakes. The pull bars that link the brakes together on each side were also done by CNC.

Brake block 3.png

There is more fun (and a few frustrations) with this in store.

Nick
 

paulc

Western Thunderer
This is my second G3 loco. I chose it partly because there is plenty of information available. I got copies of the LNWR drawings from the NRM and visited the preserved Hardwicke at Shildon to take lots of photos (great cooperation from the staff at both places). From that I was able to do a very detailed solid model.
I intend to use commercial laser cutting and 3D printing services, and possibly some CNC machining, partly to speed up the project but also because I'm interested to explore how we can use modern manufacturing methods.

Laser cut steel for the frames and other flat components.

View attachment 169458

The frames and stretchers were designed with slots and tabs for assembly. The slots were so well cut that I could just put it together for the photo. It will, of course, be soldered up later.

View attachment 169459

I had the driving wheel centres 3D printed in PA-12 nylon some time ago to see if the combination of printed centre and turned steel tyre was viable.

View attachment 169460

Other components 3D printed.

View attachment 169461

There is also a growing collection of machined parts. These were the ones I judged not feasible or too expensive to have made.

View attachment 169462

And this is my bevel gear drivetrain. It comprises a Polulu 60W motor which comes with an integrated gearbox to drop the rotational speed to 500 RPM, then a bevel gear to the driving axle. It is a nice compact package that fits between the driving axles. The problem with bevel gears (as I discovered) is the axial force they exert - they try to push each other out of mesh. Not only was it hard to stop the driving gear sliding along the motor shaft, but I was concerned about durability because, when I dismantled the inline gearbox, I discovered that the thrust bearing was quite crude (but at least it had one).

To allow for this I added a ball thrust bearing between the bevel gear and the motor casing to take the load. There wasn't enough room on the driving axle for anything similar to that, so I added a brass sleeve to fit between the spur gear and the gearbox frame. At least that will be quite accessible for regular oiling.

View attachment 169463

Nick
Hi Nick , wouldn't that brass sleeve be better in Phos bronze ?
Just a thought .
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Mike,

Your example was the spur. If it wan't for that, I'd still be watching YouTube videos and thinking about it.

Paul,

If you're thinking about durability, I expect the loco will only be doing a few laps of a garden railway each summer and occasional trundles up and down Roger Salisbury's portable layout. It's intended as a working not a showcase model, but it won't be worked very hard.

Nick
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
The next task was the tender brake links and levers. These were a combination of manual and CNC cutting. If the requirement is only one or two it's probably quicker to do by hand (at least, it seems so), but CNC is proving good for multiple parts.

Tender brake actuator 1.png

I did skip one or two bits which are either impossible to see or would make assembly and disassembly very tricky without scale size spanners and fingers. And I'm not going to link the loco and tender brakes together as they were on the real thing, which would make coupling and uncoupling the tender a lot more difficult.

Tender brake actuator 2.png

The tangle of levers viewed from the right hand side is quite satisfying.

Tender brake actuator 3.png

Nick
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Right, so now we're into CNC machining. Not for everyone, in fact I don't suppose there are many here who have ever contemplated doing it, fewer still who actually do it. Feel free to move on. But if you're even mildly curious, stick with it. It's a steep curve enlivened with some bumps along the way.

First of all, and to answer at least one question, this is what the mill looks like. To give you an idea of size, the tooling plate that the work is mounted on is about 250 x 100 mm. A lot smaller than any industrial mill. But you can't see those because they are in closed cabinets and sprayed with coolant while they are working.

Milling plank.png

But let's back up. The first thing is to define the cutting path that the tool is to take. Regular readers will know I'm a user of F360 for creating solid models of parts. Whaddaya know, F360 does tool cutting paths as well. You create a solid model, give it lots of information about the tool size and the feed rate and the stock to remove, and it figures out the tool path and downloads a file that the milling machine controller can use.

Wow! So much complexity and sophistication in a free package of software. I can only think they left all these features in the free package because they knew very few hobbyists would ever use them.

Since this thread is about a loco not a milling machine, let me say something about the latest component. One of the strangest features on this tender is a plank of wood mounted on top of the rear buffer beam. Not any old plank, it is specially shaped and has filler pieces on the bottom that wrap around the buffer stocks.

I thought initially it was for someone to stand on, but there aren't any steps up to it. I think it was there to locate the tank and stop it moving around on the frame, but any other insight from the LNWR experts is welcome. Anyway, it's a 3D shape and too thick to be easily cut by hand.

My first attempt was to define it as a 3D model and cut it out in one go. I made a couple of mistakes. The first was to use too large a cutter on the basis that the larger it is, the more rigid and less likely to break. Which overlooked that larger means more metal to cut away and the cutting force goes up. Nope, smaller is sometimes better. The other mistake was to do it all in one. That required a lot of metal to be cleared, which increased the machining time a lot. So I upped the feed rate and the depth of cut, and that increased the cutting force to the point where it started making loud protests (sometimes you have to be courageous) and eventually pushed the workpiece aside.

On a larger and heavier machine you could do it, but that wasn't the way to go. I scrapped a piece of brass but didn't break the tool. The cost of brass means it was probably more expensive than the tool.

So I redrew the model in three parts - the base plank which is a constant thickness and therefore a essentially 2D, and the two extensions that fit over the buffer stocks.

Now I talked about toolpaths a few minutes ago. F360 can show you the toolpath and even animate the tool movement. This is the toolpath for the base plank. It's what F360 calls a 2D contouring strategy.


Plank toolpath.png

Very simple in machining terms, just a 2D curve repeated at several depths to cut out the profile. If you define the profile, there are lots of apps that will create the toolpath from it. F360 adds the approach and withdrawl but that's about all. The filler piece is more complicated.

Filler piece toolpath.png

This is a 3D Adaptive Clearing strategy. There are several other strategies to choose from. You can experiment with them on the computer.

It's using a lot of computing to devise that path. There are movements to optimise the rate of metal removal, and the curved face is approximated using a series of fine steps. That's what a modern CAD package can do. I'm just grateful, and not a little amazed, that you get it all for free. Anyone here from Autodesk - you aren't reading this.

So download the toolpath files and squirt them at the machine controller. Here is a picture of the base plank and one of the filler pieces cut out.

Plank components.png

Separated from the stock, the filler piece looks like this.

Plank filler.png

Yes, that curved surface looks a bit of a mess but in fact it cleans up easily using a half round file, so eventually I had the three parts ready to assemble.

Plank cleaned up.png

Quick work with the soldering iron and here it is in place on the buffer beam.

Finished plank.png

And there we are, another component done and a lot of experience gathered. Well, it wouldn't be half the fun if you didn't learn from it, would it?

Nick
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
Simon,

Thanks for the link, it was interesting to read. My machie is a Sherline, or more accurately made from Sherline components. I was able to buy some mill components second hand, and I bought from Sherline their CNC upgrade kit that added ballscrews to all three axes. That was the largest purchase even though I managed to get it when they were offering a 30% discount. The motors, drivers and controller were purchased locally. I'm not an electronics wiz but I know which end of a soldering iron gets hot so I managed to wire it all up myself. Some of you will hate me for saying this, but it worked first time!

Nick
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Excellent, Nick,

if you have any links or more info about it, it would be great if you could add them to the CNC thread so we have a reference source

cheers
Simon
 

NickB

Western Thunderer
I've made a start on the water tank. The top and bottom are cut from nickel silver and separated by vertical spacers. The tricky bit was getting the first spacers in place, so I made a jig to hold them vertical.

Tank frame 1.png

The jig is an offcut with the bottom face turned square so that it stands upright, a slot to hold the spacer and a cutaway at the bottom for access for the soldering iron. That way the spacer is held square in both directions.

Tank frame 2.png

The frame finished and ready to attach the side sheets. The tank will house the batteries and R/C gear, and big hole in the top is for access to those.

Tank frame 3.png

That's it for now for the construction, but for those (like me) interested in the "why" as well as the "how", I'll ramble on a bit longer. Feel free to leave now.

The parts so far needed a lot of sawing. Why not cut them on my new CNC machine? Easy - it's not big enough. I knew that from the beginning, but a machine with sufficient capacity would have blown the workshop budget for years to come.

So why not get them laser cut and take advantage of tab and slot construction? Here we run up against the twin problems of order size and minimum charges. A small order like this one would be expensive for what it is. I'm already accumulating extra parts from past orders that were bumped up to get over a minimum order limit and that has to stop at some point. (Anyone else want to make a Precedent in G3?). I said at the start that this project would be an experiment in using modern manufacturing technologies and it is proving that, if you rely on commerical suppliers (it's unlikely you will be laser cutting steel in the spare bedroom), it will be problematic for a one-off project.

It makes better sense if you are doing a kit or even a small run of models, but I have no desire to go commercial in any sense.

Nick
 

Jon Nazareth

Western Thunderer
Nick
That’s all looking really good. I didn’t know what a Precedent looked like and so I looked it up. That’s going to be a nice looking engine. Is that what is known as a Jumbo and will it be a colour as opposed to painted black?

Jon
 
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