Mickoo's BR modelling

[mickoo]

Mick, I'm sure if you do a search online you will find somebody who does a BS colour as an acrylic spray.
I once had H**fords do me some land rover deep bronze green! it came out almost grey, so beware! although i think it was the YTS girl that mixed it

Warren,

Yeah Halfords mixed some this morning for me, colour looks close, though their PC has five choices of hue and I opted for 619/00 on their system. From what I can tell it might not be the exact hue, but that's all academic because the nozzle they use is a bit naff and when I got home and took the lid off it had been fizzing all the way home so just burst on me. Now I'm covered in bloody paint and waiting for all the gas to leak out before returning as an 'angry' customer for a replacement, boy are they going to have to practice some customer care when I get there! What me off the most is that if I'd taken the lid off virtually anywhere else like in the car or in the house on the way to my study, I'd have a massive cleaning bill

They seem to use a different nozzle to all the rest so I can't swap the nozzle head for another, but the fundamental problem is the non return ball valve won't seat so it just fizzes paint all the time unless you stand it upside down, in which case it just fizzes gas. Goodness knows how I'm going to get it off my hands and luckily I'm wearing junk clothes as they'll all have to go in the bin.



It's still fizzing 60mins later!

On a more positive note, I've successfully applied two layers of Railmatch enamel, both light almost dry coats but the covering is good and has a dull sheen and no crazing, it's just had one last wet coat to see if it crazes or the shine increases a little, but overall it looks promising.



Railmatch, three coats, two dry and one wet, one photo taken in shade the other in sunlight, finish is pretty good and no crazing like last time

I did manage to spray one coat of Halfords on a can, enough to make a quick comparison


Railmatch on the left, Halfords on the right. Despite having a duff can, on reflection I might not make the 30 mile round trip for a replacement Though I'm not quite sure which is right, in my mind BR green is sort of between the two?

I have a can of Phoenix BR green in the post...hopefully turn up today and a can of cellulose BS231c 224 from Doncaster autos so will do two more cans and then another comparison shot of all four.

 

[Buckjumper]

Humm, I'm not at all convinced of either of those Mick - the Halford's one borders on khaki and looks nothing like Landy Bronze Green. It'll be interesting to see the Precision and celly comparisons.

I hope you're going to clean up before tomorrow - I hear that the fair residents of Sudbury don't let scruffians into the town.

 

[Dikitriki]

If he has to empty any more cans, he won't care

 

[S-Club-7]

Mick,

You need to practice on the cans before they get opened; that way they are heavy enough to remain upright. And spray the tops as well; plenty of nooks and crannies around the ring pull.

And it's easy to tell when the paint is dry as your lips don't turn green whilst drinking the contents

Or create custom cans of cola for the kids?

 

[mickoo]

Humm, I'm not at all convinced of either of those Mick - the Halford's one borders on khaki and looks nothing like Landy Bronze Green. It'll be interesting to see the Precision and celly comparisons.

I hope you're going to clean up before tomorrow - I hear that the fair residents of Sudbury don't let scruffians into the town.

No I'm not, so in the replacement can I asked them to add a dash more dark green.

To be fair, inside and out of direct sunlight the Halfords one looks pretty good from what I can see and I've seen colour photos of BR green steam locos in bright sun that look decidedly pasty and others that look very dark green.

Compare these two pictures on what I think is the same day by different photographers, granted there may be some colour issues with processing but the second image is the colour I've seen quite often from certain angles and lighting.

http://tomcurtisrailgallery.weebly.com/uploads/6/9/0/3/6903499/60103paignton_filtered.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=239021&nseq=1

https://www.flickr.com/photos/iainrobbie9/13995796041 which appears to be between the two

and
1993 Steam Gala at Toddington by Railways of GB, on Flickr

BR green is a minefield of opinions and hues and also dependent on which workshops painted them and time in service, I think they tended to blacken/darken up with age and cleaning.

Heres 60009 in what appears to be a darker green
60009 Colton 14-12-13 by prof@worthvalley, on Flickr

And 46233 which is clearly much lighter in this shot, I've chosen this one as it has other objects to which you can check tonal values, I.E. clothing and skin and the hues on those look pretty good, which means the green hue must also be pretty good.
Driver Gordon Hodgson on Footplate Of LMS Steam Loco 46233 'Duchess of Sutherland' - Carlisle 26th May 2012 by allan5819 (Allan McKever), on Flickr

Best of all here's two shots I took at York a few moments apart, digital so there should be no tonal changes at all.

First 60008 tender


Note similar pasty khaki green to the A3 shown earlier

Now the second photo


In the foreground is 60009 which appears to be a different green colour, but more importantly look how the colour on 60008 has changed due to the viewing angle.

Of course, none really match the colours on the test cans, I'm going to try a run with the new slightly greener can but make lighter passes so maybe some of the black undercoat will show through better, the last Halfords test spray was a point and aim as it was just spitting paint everywhere so may not have been a true mixed sprayed colour finish.

 

[mickoo]

Humm, I'm not at all convinced of either of those Mick - the Halford's one borders on khaki and looks nothing like Landy Bronze Green. It'll be interesting to see the Precision and celly comparisons.

I hope you're going to clean up before tomorrow - I hear that the fair residents of Sudbury don't let scruffians into the town.

I'm going to arrive with little yellow dots with black crosses on, I seem to be the WT crash test dummy at the moment LOL

 

[mickoo]

Ok, grabbed the big camera and tried another test shot as I wasn't seeing on my monitor what I was seeing with the point and shooty.



This gives a much better representation of what I'm seeing, the half and half sunlight shows how much the colour changes between the two start contrasts. To me, the Halfords has it, the Railmatch is just too green, it might work for some diesels but I'm not impressed so far.

I'll try the slightly darker Halfords this afternoon, once I've relinquished some more cans of their contents

 

[Buckjumper]

Now the Halford's looks much closer to your photo of 60008 at York. Will you bring your test cans along tomorrow?

 

[mickoo]

Now the Halford's looks much closer to your photo of 60008 at York. Will you bring your test cans along tomorrow?

Yes, but only the empty ones

Last test shot of the day


Original Halfords on the right, revised one on the left.

When they mix it up there's a combination of colours used, six in total I think, but the total capacity is 100ml (100g), of which one of these is dark green and requires 4.2ml (4.2g).

I asked for a splash more dark green in my replacement can, not sure of the exact amount as it was squirted into the cup once the rest had been mixed and was not measured. However, from closely watching the fill for the previous six colours I'd say between 0.5 - 1.0ml (0.5-1.0g) extra dark green was added. It's hard to tell in the photo but visually you can just see the slightly darker hue and side by side under normal internal lighting it looks a better colour

It's so good I maybe tempted to mask off the A1 tender and blow it on this evening, the cellulose on order can't be used on the existing acrylic base coat and the Phoenix is an enamel of untested colour and glossiness.

 

[Buckjumper]

Another thing you could try is to pop some lining on the can. The presence of the orange and black lines alters the perception of the base colour.

 

[Scale7JB]

Good idea...!

JB.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Another thing you could try is to pop some lining on the can. The presence of the orange and black lines alters the perception of the base colour.

Agree with you Ade, I sprayed up a B12 in LNER green and before the lining went on I thought the colour was wrong, once it was lined it looked totally different but correct.

Col.

 

[alcazar]

Out of interest, where did the BR Railway works get their paint?

If they mixed it themselves, I reckon tonal variations would be possible.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Even reflections can alter the appearance of the shade of colour.



Col.

 

[mickoo]

Well I took the bull by the horns and sprayed it, it looks nice and decided to add some colour so tried the Railmatch buffer beam red, mmmm spot a trend here! plenty of colour but coverage is shocking and globby so off it all came, of course I should of tested it first on a can....another one...<sigh> but everything was going so swimmingly.

It also looks bugga all like real buffer beam red

What is the matter with paint these days , never had any of these issues with good old Tamiya and Humbrol paints 20 years ago, mind red always was a bit of a pig to apply and I always found matt red much more consistent and easier to apply, followed by a layer of Klear to shine it up.

 

[mickoo]

Out of interest, where did the BR Railway works get their paint?

If they mixed it themselves, I reckon tonal variations would be possible.

It was mixed up locally at each workshop I believe.

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Mick.

Sorry I've not been back to you earlier - PC problems, sorry to say, but all seems OK now.

I believe the Halford's spray cans are acrylic. More importantly I'm sorry to see all the problems - this has not been easy, has it?

As far as the colour is concerned, I now don't get too hung up on precise shade. I take the view that the shade is so affected by viewing conditions, age of paint, state of varnish etc that no two locos are likely to ever look exactly the same.

Probably sacrilege!

Brian

 

[adrian]

It was mixed up locally at each workshop I believe.

My understanding is the same - at least for Derby it was. They bought in the pigmentation and solvent/binder and mixed it themselves so there could be some variation depending on where they source the pigmentation from.
Bob Moore (lining pen) used to work at Derby Technical centre and he knew one of the technicians in the paint shop, when he left he was given a small note book which contained paint swatches on steel shim stock, every batch of paint the technician made up was in that book plus any other samples he managed to collect. Many years later he built a 5" Johnson Compound (Now in the National Railway Museum) and so he got the paint mixed from one of the samples out of his Derby Paint book. That then led onto him collaborating with my Dad to launch the Cherry Paints, the first set of railway colours they produced were matched to the samples from that Derby paint book.

 

[warren haywood]

Out of interest, where did the BR Railway works get their paint?

If they mixed it themselves, I reckon tonal variations would be possible.

If you ever go to the museum in Birmingham where Duchess City of Birmingham is kept and look at the colour, you will notice it is in two shades of green, this is the last remaining authentic British Railways painted loco.
I think that says it all.
I suppose find and then stick with a colour you are happy with, BS224 for me

 

[mickoo]

Brian, first children are always difficult I agree, BR green is a matter of choice, I'm interested to see what Warrens Cellulose comes out like, I suspect it'll be very close to what I have here, they're both supposed to be the same colour

I will stick with this can for this loco which is acrylic so dries very nicely and quickly and can be over sprayed several times without fear of the previous disasters and I'll have no issues putting it side with others.

Adrian, interesting info, even then I suspect there may have been other technicians on other shifts with slightly different swatches and I wonder if they were as accurate as we can get today with modern technology when measuring out the pots for mixing