Mickoo's BR modelling

[adrian]

Adrian, interesting info, even then I suspect there may have been other technicians on other shifts with slightly different swatches and I wonder if they were as accurate as we can get today with modern technology when measuring out the pots for mixing

Without doubt there were other technicians and they were all following the same recipe. But just like baking when it is a cup of this followed by 2 cups of that - we all know that two chefs following the same recipe can produce two different cakes. To think that it would be any different for mixing paint in days gone past is deluding ourselves. You just need to find a colour that you are happy with, as long as you can look at the loco and think yes that looks right then what else matters.

 

[Steph Dale]

You just need to find a colour that you are happy with, as long as you can look at the loco and think yes that looks right then what else matters.

Whether you're colour-blind or not? And no, I'm not joking. I know of people who swear LMS and Met locos were painted brown and have heard tell of a very strangely painted loco that turned up at a Guild show one year; the guy had apparently painted it from a photo...

Steph

 

[Heather Kay]

I long ago realised there is no real way we can ever be "correct" with painting our models in authentic colours. So many factors change the perception of the colour we might choose. Even colour photos can't prove one thing or another, with ageing substrates altering the colour balance, plus the fidelity of reproduction in a printed book being a slightly variable quantity.

I always groan when I see a thread started on other forums about which colour is correct for particular job. How can we possibly tell, at this distance, what a specific shade of crimson might have looked like? I now take the view that I should be consistent in my choices of paints, and keep the same product for a set of models that might be shown together. I am usually pretty happy to accept the colour the manufacturer says it is - though I shall steer a little clear of Railmatch after this discussion, especially for principal colours at least.

I find Precision to be consistent quality. My airbrushing of their enamels improved immensely when I adopted their own thinners, too. I don't feel brave enough to tackle cellulose, outside of a rattle can at least, but then I don't really get on with rattle cans for top coats.

 

[JimG]

I long ago realised there is no real way we can ever be "correct" with painting our models in authentic colours. So many factors change the perception of the colour we might choose. Even colour photos can't prove one thing or another, with ageing substrates altering the colour balance, plus the fidelity of reproduction in a printed book being a slightly variable quantity.

It's also an accepted fact that the human brain's colour memory is not good.

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

I now take the view that I should be consistent in my choices of paints, and keep the same product for a set of models that might be shown together. I am usually pretty happy to accept the colour the manufacturer says it is - though I shall steer a little clear of Railmatch after this discussion, especially for principal colours at least.

I find Precision to be consistent quality. My airbrushing of their enamels improved immensely when I adopted their own thinners, too. I don't feel brave enough to tackle cellulose, outside of a rattle can at least, but then I don't really get on with rattle cans for top coats.

Hi Heather.

That's an interesting comment. Although not BR this photo of the last Metropolitan steam hauled train (another of my nineteen hundred and frozen to death photos) shows very clearly the colour variation within a set of Met brown stock. (For those having alarm bells ringing following Steph's earlier comment, Met loco hauled and T stock was painted brown in LT days - the locos were a shade quite close to Midland red but a bit darker).

(42070, leaving Amersham for Aylesbury, 10 September 1961)

I actually try to get some shade variation within stock where I can, although I believe that the Southern tended to put their stock through works in sets (maybe Steph could comment?) and such variations may not be appropriate for stock in sets. (Note the careful use of "I believe" and "may not be" in the above sentence!)

BTW, didn't BR mixed traffic livery look cracking when it was properly clean?

Brian

 

[dibateg]

That looks just like my mum in the background, right time right place. I did ask her but she doesn't remember!

Great photo.

Regards
Tony

 

[mickoo]

Heather, that's the general consensus today at Sudbury, stick with a colour your happy with and try not to mix and match...loco + tender etc, but stock can have some variation and to use corresponding thinners with their respective paints, I found Tamiya always worked best on Tamiya paints and not so good on Humbrol back in the day, and vice versa.

Virtually everyone at Sudbury who visits here were unsure of the Halfords green from the photos shown here but in the flesh agreed "it was close enough" to not be worrying about.

Anyway moving on, I acquired some Humbrol RC402, listed as buffer beam red, an acrylic but that's not the issue right now, it's the damn colour, like the previous Railmatch it's a shocking pasty colour and as Brians excellent photo above clearly shows, the buffer beam is quite a bit darker.....and yes I think lined BR black looks great, at least there's no argument of which black to use

The problem now is what is the correct red to use for BR buffer beams, I'm guessing signal red will be better or even insignia red, the rest just seem so washed out or maybe I'm just imagining the red being darker.

 

[warren haywood]

....and yes I think lined BR black looks great, at least there's no argument of which black to use

The problem now is what is the correct red to use for BR buffer beams, I'm guessing signal red will be better or even insignia red, the rest just seem so washed out or maybe I'm just imagining the red being darker.

Or is there!!!!

Mick, I think you will find a tinlet of precision buffer beam red is just fine, it brushes really well but needs a light undercoat, I use precision rail grey.

 

[warren haywood]

There you go, two different blacks but what are they ???



Sorry just being awkward

 

[mickoo]

There you go, two different blacks but what are they ???

View attachment 37515

Sorry just being awkward

Err, shiny one and not so shiny one?

 

[mickoo]

Or is there!!!!

Mick, I think you will find a tinlet of precision buffer beam red is just fine, it brushes really well but needs a light undercoat, I use precision rail grey.

Awsome, I shall procure said tinlet shortly, said buffer beam has already been primed in Humbrol 147, matt light grey on the advice of others....who, like you, know far more than I do in this malarky

After my previous post I had a brain movement....doesn't happen often...thankfully as it makes my head hurt.. but whilst rummaging in the loft recently I came across and old box of what I thought might be modelling stuff and it rattled like such but I never opened it and just passed it by, I've just whizzed back up and opened it.



Most of these have never been opened or opened once and still have liquid in, most likely separated but possibly usable, but best of all I had one paint which I found to be the best coverage and that good you could brush paint 4mm locos with it, I'd forgotten who made it, but the tin remains above and lo and behold it is from Precision paints.

All my detail brushes are there...so didn't need to spend more today at Peters LOL, of course there's no buffer beam or signal red and the youngest tin in there will be at least 17-18 years old, it'll be interesting to see if any are still usable not as a primary colour but for detailing and weathering they may have a use and non will be any of this Chinese Humbrol rubbish.

One of my early 4mm efforts, said green loco with Precision green brushed on.


Couple of other finished ones




And one last shelf queen


These are probably some of the last of my 4mm stuff left, certainly the last kit built stuff, all looking very tired and dusty now and all could do with a spruce up as and when time permits....if I can even remember where I've stored them?

 

[Scanlon]

Hi gents,

you may find this story of interest regarding liveries, paint shades etc. I used to know the first curator of the Clapham Transport Museum, John Scholes. He was appointed to the post in 1958, in his words just too late to save the last Brighton Atlantic. In 1959 he was having the ex GER J69 and E4 restored into GER livery. To establish the correct blue he invited as many ex GER men as he could find to select the "correct" blue. The morning was spent chewing the fat but eventually the majority agreed on a blue. John was delighted and everyone retired to the local BRSA club for a sandwich plus a few pints. They then returned to look at the blue and chose an entirely different one!!!!!

In 1988 following restoration from a Barry hulk Taw Valley was painted in the Eastleigh Brunswick Green. The paint was matched from a sample provided by the Clan Line Society and it was completely different from any other Brunswick Green on the SVR. As far as I know Clan Line still match to this colour and I have not heard anyone saying it is incorrect.

Every one of us sees colour differently and as Adrian said go with the one YOU think it correct for your loco, coach, wagon or whatever.

 

[mickoo]

Scanlon,

Apparently (I was reliably told today) humans can pick even the smallest variation in greens, something to do with us foraging and eating from before Darwin days, reds we can pick out as well, but blues we tend to be less defined with. But of all the colours we tune into for tonal detail, green is apparently top of the list.

 

[OzzyO]

Looks like, matt and satin to me.

Or it could be black and charcoal black.

OzzyO.

 

[warren haywood]

Ral 9005 jet black gloss and ral 9004 signal black mat then lacquered

 

[mickoo]

Ral 9005 jet black gloss and ral 9004 signal black mat then lacquered

Of course they are, you know, I was just going to say that looks like RAL 9005 and RAL 9004 but you beat me too it

In other news, I got my two extra tins of.....yes....y'all guessed is pop pickers...green! I've done a quick squirt from each and not surprisingly there's some differences and similarities.

Doncaster Autos BS231c 224 is pretty much the same as the Halfords mix, though it's dark so it's hard to tell which it's closer too, the spec one or the one with the extra 1% green. Surprisingly the Phoenix precision one looks nearly the same as the Railmatch one, much darker.

I'll do a big test sheet with all four on at the weekend, but at the moment I think the Halfords/Doncaster Autos looks spot on for steam engines but the Railmatch and Phoenix would look much better on a diesel which always seemed to have a darker green than steam engines. I've certainly not seen any diesels with the hues discussed previously on A3 and A4 locos etc.

 

[OzzyO]

Daft question time, were B.R. steam locos painted in BS colours? For some reason I thought that the railway only started to use the BS colours when they started to spray more stock and locos (eg. coaches and Diesels etc.).

If you read the book Locomotive livers of the L.M.S. by Jenkins and Essery (the first one published in about 1968 ) it gives the workshop mix for some of the paints, and the run down of how each type of loco should be treated.

Just recienty I've seen a Land Rover 90? (short wheel base) that does not have the rich colour of green that I always think of when I think of a L/R. It may not have the touch of blue in the green that I think of?

OzzyO.

 

[farnetti]

Some more progress, fitted the 5thou footplate skin with rivets, came out quite well, considering I made it too short, by 0.5mm so no overhang at the cab end! As luck would have it, the 1:1 sheet metal work is joined just behind the front steps so I was saved from making a whole new one again by simply cutting off the rear and making only that part. The sheet is cut back over the front lifting holes, as is the angle that it fits too, usually flame cut on the 1:1 so not the neatest of cuts and it's also cut back by the cab doors.

Next came the cab but I opted to leave the rear off so I can get in there and do all the detail stuff, I'll probably paint a lot in there too, only leaving the walls aft of the doors to paint after the rear has been soldered on, there is an inner cab rear which is quite handy as that will help cover/assist hiding any wanton errors and such.....that's the current plan.

Bonnet sides were next and a slight deviation from the kit, opening out the radiator grills in the side, these are see through and the area inside quite simple to knock up from sheet metal or plasticard to represent the structures there in (more in due course). adding a work fan is possible but the viewing angle is tight so may not be worth the effort in the long run.

I'd opted for Kit2 as it's for late 08s, define late?, late for the bus, late for dinner, late chronologically or late in the production run, realistically I think its a combination of the last two but I'm not sure which as yet, the kit advises dual brakes and logically you'd think one could model a vac example by leaving off the air brake parts, sadly not so, dual brake locos appear (not all mind) to have an extra box in front of the fuel tank on the LH side, looks like a tool box and this alters the intake grills and such, I'd opted for a Vac brake version but that's now not possible, the kit includes some parts for the vac model but not in this area. To change I'll need to enlarge the LH battery box, make new intake doors and fiddle with a few other sundries, all possible but not sure if it's worth it.

The only issue is that I have two of these kits and I'd like at least one Vac brake example, with hindsight I should of bought one of each, but hindsight is never wrong! So, that area is under suspension at the moment, especially as I have to do more work to the bonnet doors.
The doors are stamped but the kit only supplies a flat sheet door, thus each door will need an extra layer on the outside to replicate stamping of the sheet metal work, additionally I cannot find any images that match the kit door latches, not saying they are wrong, just no good for what I need so will need to make new door latches as well.
The extra layer will probably be plasticard as it'll be easier and quicker to cut and make fit as well as bevel the edges to give a slight domed effect. Going through that lot would mean its a mere trifle to add the enlarged intake doors and LH battery box to make a Vac only loco....he says.

View attachment 18031

View attachment 18034

View attachment 18033

View attachment 18032

Note bonnet is held in place with blue tak and cellotape LOL, also note that chassis seems to have bowed when footplate sheeting was applied, so some jiggery pokery required to get a nice tight join between bonnet sides and footplate.

Kindest

Hi Mick,

I am now about to start on an early version of this kit and so need the lip on the footplate. It looks like you have done this over the entire area and I was wondering how you are then dealing with the various slots and holes for locating the upper body parts and cab interior.

Like you, I cannot work out why the tabs on part 1 inside the front steps and outer frames seem to wide, no mention on other build sites.

Thank you again for pointing me in the right direction for the S7 axles at Brightwell.

Also, while I'm here, is anyone out there interested in another build log of this kit?

Ken

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi Mick,

I am now about to start on an early version of this kit........
Also, while I'm here, is anyone out there interested in another build log of this kit?

Ken

Yes please Ken,

No 2 people will do the same kit in the same way, and the more approaches the merrier.

Richard

 

[mickoo]

Ken,

I don't think I bothered with the slots being covered up, if I recall...can't double check as it's all sealed up now with the roof on....but I'm fairly sure I added some angled brass on top of the new footplate along the length of the bonnet base to locate the sides, the measurement can be obtained from the bonnet front and I think a bonnet rear bulkhead, or by measurement of the slots from a know point before and after the additional footplate is added. Once the bonnet is in the right place I just added the cab front and sides and butt soldered them to the footplate whilst making sure they were square and parallel with said footplate, the cab rear face hasn't been affixed, it's still held in place with sellotape.

Axles, your more than welcome.

As Richard says, post up your progress, it might kick start me to get back to mine