warren haywood
Western Thunderer
Looks like nobody knows, but my instinct is that BR may have mixed it in works upto Rail Blue which always looks the same (bs 114)
Mickoo's BR modelling
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
In true WT scatter gun I packed up the Crab and Fowler tender and started something new.
Now I'll be honest, I missed this when it first came out and if it wasn't for the few bodies that other West Mersea guys had brought to last months meeting I would probably have walked by altogether.
Anyway, by hook and crook I've managed to cherry pick the bits needed so far to get what I require for a rolling chassis. There's been a few eBay bargins where people have given up already so the total cost so far is about £30.
From Partworks I have the boiler, nose and frame outer laminations, I've also got the cab side and front sheets plus floor...which will go straight in the bin as it's the wrong size, doesn't fit and has some sort of wood grain you see from poundland sticky plastic wood effect covering.
The rest is scratch built, which so far consists of new inner frames, spacers and new footplate and running board.
Overall the body is pretty good once you get all the paint off, but the masters were a little rough for my liking, with mould lines along the shoulders of the boiler and flat lands on the nose edges, but a little car with files and emery paper and it all smooths off nicely.
The model comes with side skirts, which is no good for me so they went in the spares bin...actually may offer up on eBay as spares for some one, hence my new running boards. The only problem with the model that Hachette have chosen is that you can only model Mallard, I haven't double triple checked my notes but I think that's the only one that had skirts and a double chimney, there may have been a couple of others but no more than four I'm sure...which kind of limits you to prototypes if you stick to the full kit.
The only other issues with the model are the panel lines for the superheater cover and nose doors, they're enormous and the bolt pattern on the doors, looks to be a work of fiction, I've looked through nearly all of my books and cannot find a loco that matches. So, both of these will be replaced with 5 thou laminates, the nose doors may be a little harder to blend in, but we'll see how it goes, if not I'll cut the doors out and flush fit the new correctly shaped ones from brass.
The rest of the model will be scratch built or etched work whizzed up in CAD, I've a spare boiler and a couple of cabs...which are nearly the same on the V2 and A2/2...need to cross check the GA's to 100% sure.
I'm probably going to run this with a rigid frame, which goes back to brief discussions elsewhere here on weight and springing etc, it rolled through all the point work on Love Lane with out a single wobble or rattle, which kind of reinforces my current view that track work is as important to loco-motion as is springing. The tender will be fully CSB sprung as that's where all the pick up will come from.
I may even go more radical and have a big can motor in the tender with a thin drive shaft under the cab floor, perfectly feasible and totally invisible due to the LNER buffering method used on their Pacifics. This all stems from the fact that the side valance which is attached to the running board also forms the cylinder casing which wraps under the cylinders, thus they will have to be fixed to the body, and thus, the only way to get the wheels out will be an almost total valve gear strip down.
I'll do a little more to this until it reaches a stage where warm storage is acceptable and then maybe move onto the A1 loco or the Crosti 9F but I really must finalise my layout choice and get on with that
if I'm brutally honest.
Anyway, that's enough for this month.
Now I'll be honest, I missed this when it first came out and if it wasn't for the few bodies that other West Mersea guys had brought to last months meeting I would probably have walked by altogether.
Anyway, by hook and crook I've managed to cherry pick the bits needed so far to get what I require for a rolling chassis. There's been a few eBay bargins where people have given up already so the total cost so far is about £30.
From Partworks I have the boiler, nose and frame outer laminations, I've also got the cab side and front sheets plus floor...which will go straight in the bin as it's the wrong size, doesn't fit and has some sort of wood grain you see from poundland sticky plastic wood effect covering.
The rest is scratch built, which so far consists of new inner frames, spacers and new footplate and running board.
Overall the body is pretty good once you get all the paint off, but the masters were a little rough for my liking, with mould lines along the shoulders of the boiler and flat lands on the nose edges, but a little car with files and emery paper and it all smooths off nicely.
The model comes with side skirts, which is no good for me so they went in the spares bin...actually may offer up on eBay as spares for some one, hence my new running boards. The only problem with the model that Hachette have chosen is that you can only model Mallard, I haven't double triple checked my notes but I think that's the only one that had skirts and a double chimney, there may have been a couple of others but no more than four I'm sure...which kind of limits you to prototypes if you stick to the full kit.
The only other issues with the model are the panel lines for the superheater cover and nose doors, they're enormous and the bolt pattern on the doors, looks to be a work of fiction, I've looked through nearly all of my books and cannot find a loco that matches. So, both of these will be replaced with 5 thou laminates, the nose doors may be a little harder to blend in, but we'll see how it goes, if not I'll cut the doors out and flush fit the new correctly shaped ones from brass.
The rest of the model will be scratch built or etched work whizzed up in CAD, I've a spare boiler and a couple of cabs...which are nearly the same on the V2 and A2/2...need to cross check the GA's to 100% sure.
I'm probably going to run this with a rigid frame, which goes back to brief discussions elsewhere here on weight and springing etc, it rolled through all the point work on Love Lane with out a single wobble or rattle, which kind of reinforces my current view that track work is as important to loco-motion as is springing. The tender will be fully CSB sprung as that's where all the pick up will come from.
I may even go more radical and have a big can motor in the tender with a thin drive shaft under the cab floor, perfectly feasible and totally invisible due to the LNER buffering method used on their Pacifics. This all stems from the fact that the side valance which is attached to the running board also forms the cylinder casing which wraps under the cylinders, thus they will have to be fixed to the body, and thus, the only way to get the wheels out will be an almost total valve gear strip down.
I'll do a little more to this until it reaches a stage where warm storage is acceptable and then maybe move onto the A1 loco or the Crosti 9F but I really must finalise my layout choice and get on with that
if I'm brutally honest.Anyway, that's enough for this month.
john lewsey
Western Thunderer
The A1
Buckjumper
Flying Squad
Mick - Loctite 480 is the stuff I was thinking of at Sudbury for gluing the 5 thou shim to the mazak. If the A4 is on hold again pro temp why not bring it along to the Christmas bash in a couple of weeks along with a few small bits of shim. I'll bring my 480 and we can glue a few bits inside the shell to see how it fares.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Adrian,
Awsome, thanks for looking that out, will get some of the stuff shortly as I'll probably use it to stick other small bits on other kits too.
I'll hopefully have the cab, roof, floor, raised floor area, backhead and maybe the basic cylinder and casings done as well by the time of the Xmas bash in two weeks....or.. I may go gung ho on the A1 and get a pretty good loco shaped lump ready in time.
john lewsey
Western Thunderer
You've done such a nice job on the tender it would really nice to see the A1 come together
mickoo
Western Thunderer
This is true and it would clear a huge pile of reference books off my desk once completed!
I've also just got a whole pile of Fox lining off eBay for a song so I have no excuse to decal it out now. I just need to get brave enough to weather it a little as well LOL.
I do of course also have kits for Princess Royal, Jubilee, Britannia,Finney A4, Crab, Class 40, two 08's and scratch build Std 5 and Fowler tank under the bench as well, in case I get bored in between
john lewsey
Western Thunderer
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Of all my kits, the Class 40 would be the fastest to complete, and that I suppose is why I haven't started it.The 40 & 08's next 3 please ?, Mick
Steve
It'd all be over before it started sort of thing and being as my biggest pleasure at the moment is building things, I kind of have the nagging feeling I'd be let down some how, but its time will come
It will be green though & small yellow panel, grubby, as befits a typical WCML Crewe, Camden or Edge Hill variant
Scale7JB
Western Thunderer
I do of course also have kits for Princess Royal, Jubilee, Britannia,Finney A4, Crab, Class 40, two 08's and scratch build Std 5 and Fowler tank under the bench as well, in case I get bored in between
My (old) reputation precedes you..!
JB
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I'm going for a BR look so no valances, I could make them part of the chassis but they are very thin from the first driver back and will be very fragile, if there was a suitable break point on the 1:1 then I could leave the thin bit attached to the running plate and the cylinder bit to the chassis. That'd solve the valance but what about the AWS pipework and splitting that, basically the valance is better fixed solid to the running boards and work on another solution.
I think I've seen the 'undressed' one, if it's the same one then they have just trimmed back the mazak sides, thats ok but it leaves a valance thats 2mm thick and even then the sides are still attached to the body and thus the cylinders too. I suspect they will have the same problem I have in the near future.
Thinking about it, if I redesign the cab footplate layout I have (currently the chassis and footplate sandwich the mazak to form a rigid structure) I may be able to have the running boards come away with the chassis in one lump, it'll need some very careful panel joining to give a near seamless fit, but it might be possible.
Last edited:
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
I do of course also have kits for Princess Royal, Jubilee, Britannia,Finney A4, Crab, Class 40, two 08's and scratch build Std 5 and Fowler tank under the bench as well, in case I get bored in between
.........................and the Aussie loco's and the Yankee stock, the Shenfield stock, the Clacton...............
Col.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the great rescue begins
Fortunately this and the tender inner frames, are the only bits that have been 'attacked' by the previous owner. The rest of the kit is safe and hopefully intact, a quick check reveals that 'most' appears to be there. By good fortune it did come with a full set of wheels and motor which takes some of the sting from the chassis.
I always believe you should be nice to your toys...and more importantly, know ones limits, both of these came from a large collection, possibly near a hundred locos, and all have been built this far as far as I can tell.
About the only thing salvageable from this is the basic kit parts, nothing is square in any plane, angle or quarter, none of the cusps have been removed and there's still remnants of tags here and there, which all basically means a total strip down. On top of that, massive slots have been cut where the axles go, I presume to allow the fitting of the plastic Slaters horn guides supplied in the box, it would have been nice if the horn guides had been measured before the slots were cut, they're no where near the correct size, or even cut straight and square. I'm going to have to fill these slots somehow and being as this area is visible behind the wheels, getting a flush invisible join will be quite important.
I've no idea what suspension I'll be doing, but it won't be the supplied plastic horn guides, these may go up on Ebay (pack of ten) unless someone here makes an honest offer, these are the older style with little screws that hold in a lower retaining strap. The kit top hat bearings are still intact I may opt for rigid like my A4 or slotted CSB style like my Std 5 and Fowler 4P tank.
Out came the big iron and large tip, 400°C temp and in we go, sadly there is so much solder of unknown quality that any bit you un-soldered promptly soldered somewhere else. I think it's all 145°C solder and a pig to get off. After faffing around for 20mins I gave up and just used a blow torch, that did the trick
it also tested the integrated house fire alarm very well too, much to the disgust of the other domestic habitants
Now I'm left with a bundle of Nickle Silver etchings covered in vast amounts of solder to get clean, fortunately the DA metal work is of sufficient strength to allow me to tackle these with some brutality.
I'll have to clean off all the solder as best I can, clean off all the cusps, redo all the rivets as they have been pressed out with...well I've no idea but there's some odd markings on the outer face and none are formed large enough and finally open up some of the chassis holes to suit a BR variant.
The rear end under the cab is way too wide at 45mm, I suspect this is to allow more room for tighter curves, it should be 42mm between frames, and of course the main chassis spacers will be too narrow for S7.
All in all a lot of work, I did, foolishly, promise that it'd be a rolling chassis by next weekend for the West Mersea Xmas get together, and with that I'd better grab some new emery cloth and begin the tasks
Fortunately this and the tender inner frames, are the only bits that have been 'attacked' by the previous owner. The rest of the kit is safe and hopefully intact, a quick check reveals that 'most' appears to be there. By good fortune it did come with a full set of wheels and motor which takes some of the sting from the chassis.
I always believe you should be nice to your toys...and more importantly, know ones limits, both of these came from a large collection, possibly near a hundred locos, and all have been built this far as far as I can tell.
About the only thing salvageable from this is the basic kit parts, nothing is square in any plane, angle or quarter, none of the cusps have been removed and there's still remnants of tags here and there, which all basically means a total strip down. On top of that, massive slots have been cut where the axles go, I presume to allow the fitting of the plastic Slaters horn guides supplied in the box, it would have been nice if the horn guides had been measured before the slots were cut, they're no where near the correct size, or even cut straight and square. I'm going to have to fill these slots somehow and being as this area is visible behind the wheels, getting a flush invisible join will be quite important.
I've no idea what suspension I'll be doing, but it won't be the supplied plastic horn guides, these may go up on Ebay (pack of ten) unless someone here makes an honest offer, these are the older style with little screws that hold in a lower retaining strap. The kit top hat bearings are still intact I may opt for rigid like my A4 or slotted CSB style like my Std 5 and Fowler 4P tank.
Out came the big iron and large tip, 400°C temp and in we go, sadly there is so much solder of unknown quality that any bit you un-soldered promptly soldered somewhere else. I think it's all 145°C solder and a pig to get off. After faffing around for 20mins I gave up and just used a blow torch, that did the trick
it also tested the integrated house fire alarm very well too, much to the disgust of the other domestic habitants Now I'm left with a bundle of Nickle Silver etchings covered in vast amounts of solder to get clean, fortunately the DA metal work is of sufficient strength to allow me to tackle these with some brutality.
I'll have to clean off all the solder as best I can, clean off all the cusps, redo all the rivets as they have been pressed out with...well I've no idea but there's some odd markings on the outer face and none are formed large enough and finally open up some of the chassis holes to suit a BR variant.
The rear end under the cab is way too wide at 45mm, I suspect this is to allow more room for tighter curves, it should be 42mm between frames, and of course the main chassis spacers will be too narrow for S7.
All in all a lot of work, I did, foolishly, promise that it'd be a rolling chassis by next weekend for the West Mersea Xmas get together, and with that I'd better grab some new emery cloth and begin the tasks
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well nearly a week on and virtually naff all to show for it 
I spent ages cleaning up the previous pigeon 
soldering and then pondered how to update the frames to BR guise...the history of A3 frames is rather complex, long and after a lot of reading, rather sketchy. What was interesting is that by the late 50's about the only part left of the original frames is the rear axle box area and Cartarzzi extensions, essentially new front frames were butt welded onto the original rear section and then a massive reinforcing plate secured inside, this blocks the rear oval hole but makes the first round hole double thickness.
You can still clearly see the weld join on Flying Scotsman today.
In the end I added this reinforcing plate but didn't bother with all the internal rivets, why, because they'd be a very poor representation of what's really in there and this is where the self doubt and course of this loco looks to be in jeopardy.
The problem is that there are a lot of errors in these frames, I know this'll sound like a whinge but I only did a weeks detailed research on the frames and the faults are, for me, quite depressing. I've had to undo and redo so much so far that it would probably have been better to just throw the frames at the Starlings crapping on my roof and CAD some new ones up. The half etch rivet holes are too small and when punched give the smallest rivets known, then there's half etched lines on the outside of the frames, which when bent still form a trough that needs filling, no problem except that its lined with punched rivets....that need to be punched before you bend...which means you can't fill it and smooth it without removing your neat, but small, rivets
On top of that, the Cartarzzi extensions are, well at the front end, a work of fiction. The final gripe are slots in the frames for the spacers, why oh why are these slots all the way through?, forcing modellers to fill or try and file/sand smooth tabs on visible parts of the model.
Hmmm, having re-read that last paragraph I've kinda answered my own debate...M.Y.F.O
Anyway having struggled through the above I've ended up here, two cleaned frames, with correct holes and un-correct holes filled, though I've just spotted the slot above the reversing arm shaft, which will have to be filled I suppose; and two new frame spacers, not sure of the accuracy, really didn't think I needed to get the lighting holes the right size or corner radius, a rough facsimile would be a more accurate description.
I've also filled in the slots where the axles go and made new holes for the top hat bearings, still undecided whether to go rigid of CSB, will mull that over the weekend. Note the external half etch trench at the start of the Cartarzzi extensions, bad enough as it is, it's also in the wrong place and should be to the rear of that last line of vertical rivets. I also removed all the springs and associated hangers, to be replaced with Ragstone examples I haven't shown the inside of the frames, best not really and if a lot of the patchwork quilt inside is visible under the boiler, which I think it may be, then they will go straight in the bin.
Close up of the two new stretchers, the front one needs some beefing up in the lower centre where the middle slide bar attaches, this view also shows quite well the filled in holes up front, they are smooth, but smoothing around already formed rivets is a painful exercise, note also slot above reversing arm shaft and for some totally inexplicable reason a slot above the middle driver for a fictitious spacer to poke through and be soldered.
This is all a shame really as I've been looking forward to an A3 for a long time and DA is generally very good for what you pay, still, onward and upward.
I spent ages cleaning up the previous pigeon soldering and then pondered how to update the frames to BR guise...the history of A3 frames is rather complex, long and after a lot of reading, rather sketchy. What was interesting is that by the late 50's about the only part left of the original frames is the rear axle box area and Cartarzzi extensions, essentially new front frames were butt welded onto the original rear section and then a massive reinforcing plate secured inside, this blocks the rear oval hole but makes the first round hole double thickness.You can still clearly see the weld join on Flying Scotsman today.
In the end I added this reinforcing plate but didn't bother with all the internal rivets, why, because they'd be a very poor representation of what's really in there and this is where the self doubt and course of this loco looks to be in jeopardy.
The problem is that there are a lot of errors in these frames, I know this'll sound like a whinge but I only did a weeks detailed research on the frames and the faults are, for me, quite depressing. I've had to undo and redo so much so far that it would probably have been better to just throw the frames at the Starlings crapping on my roof and CAD some new ones up. The half etch rivet holes are too small and when punched give the smallest rivets known, then there's half etched lines on the outside of the frames, which when bent still form a trough that needs filling, no problem except that its lined with punched rivets....that need to be punched before you bend...which means you can't fill it and smooth it without removing your neat, but small, rivets
On top of that, the Cartarzzi extensions are, well at the front end, a work of fiction. The final gripe are slots in the frames for the spacers, why oh why are these slots all the way through?, forcing modellers to fill or try and file/sand smooth tabs on visible parts of the model.Hmmm, having re-read that last paragraph I've kinda answered my own debate...M.Y.F.O
Anyway having struggled through the above I've ended up here, two cleaned frames, with correct holes and un-correct holes filled, though I've just spotted the slot above the reversing arm shaft, which will have to be filled I suppose
; and two new frame spacers, not sure of the accuracy, really didn't think I needed to get the lighting holes the right size or corner radius, a rough facsimile would be a more accurate description.I've also filled in the slots where the axles go and made new holes for the top hat bearings, still undecided whether to go rigid of CSB, will mull that over the weekend. Note the external half etch trench at the start of the Cartarzzi extensions, bad enough as it is, it's also in the wrong place and should be to the rear of that last line of vertical rivets. I also removed all the springs and associated hangers, to be replaced with Ragstone examples
I haven't shown the inside of the frames, best not really and if a lot of the patchwork quilt inside is visible under the boiler, which I think it may be, then they will go straight in the bin.Close up of the two new stretchers, the front one needs some beefing up in the lower centre where the middle slide bar attaches, this view also shows quite well the filled in holes up front, they are smooth, but smoothing around already formed rivets is a painful exercise, note also slot above reversing arm shaft and for some totally inexplicable reason a slot above the middle driver for a fictitious spacer to poke through and be soldered.
This is all a shame really as I've been looking forward to an A3 for a long time and DA is generally very good for what you pay, still, onward and upward.
