Mickoo's BR modelling

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Andy,

Err, wow :eek: so many more details to add now!

Super collection of photos and they answer so many questions :thumbs:

Your right, the image in question answers everything about the floor under the fall plate, I've got a couple of works photos of locos in this area and they were throwing me out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sydhank/6425619611

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-...MLU-hBjoUZ-a4d8c4-ebbQzC-nE7xeo-nE7Eus-brXGEk

I initially thought these were temporary supports or some such, it now appears this is the main floor support, thus the original plate work that went full width was just a cover plate over this area. In later years the cover plate was removed to reveal the support work, hence giving what looks like cut away corners on locos close coupled to tenders.

Back to the kit, it's neither wrong, nor completely right.
IMG_6697b.JPG

It has a full width plate under the fall plate so should reach all the way out to the cab turn in, as should the actual floor, however if it is representing a more modern engine then the cut in corner is in the right place but still needs the floor extending to the turn in (green below)

IMG_6698b.JPG

Red represents the support posts once the cover plate is removed. I need to cut the whole rear face away and fill the green corners, I'm also unhappy with the scribed planks and was already going to add a 1/64" ply planked floor, but the etch lines come right out to the end and you'll see a neat row of nicks across what should be a flat edge to sheet steel. I'll probably cut the existing floor right back to the cab turn in, add a new 0.010" floor of the correct size right out to the fall plate area and then add the floor supports.

From the images linked above, they do look like wood, in which case I'll do the same with some off cuts I have here and wedge them in, can't really face making all those little fiddly bits from fold up brass. This shot here though (Copyright some kind gent on Flickr) cropped, shows some sort of steel support work, though there are only three brackets and the middle one is not apparent in the works photos linked above, or just not as visible as the larger lighter coloured ones.

Image1.jpg


On top of this sub floor there are two further dais on each side under the seats, again the kit makes some generic shapes in here so these need to be all new which then impacts on the back head support and height, more on that this afternoon once this sub floor is done :thumbs:
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well that took longer than expected.

To refresh, this is what we started with.IMG_6697a.JPG

First step was to cut back the existing floor so a new correct sized one can be overlaid, I also added a pseudo wall underneath as a light block.

IMG_6699a.JPG

Next up a new floor.

IMG_6700a.JPG

I mentioned earlier I'd opt for wood for the supports, I decided against this as they're just as fiddly as brass so the large ones are bent brass sheet and the thinner ones are copper clad paxolin sleepers cut to size, no idea what the real sizes are but this looks close enough. It's not an exact rendition but close enough for me....before I loose the will to carry on.

IMG_6701a.JPG

Next up is inserting the fall plate and adding some hinge detail and then adding the dias on each side, these just look like wooden boxes but I'll make them from sheet brass and maybe skin with wood, once those are in I can add the wooden floor, fix in the fall plate and try to work out how on earth I'm going to get the backhead to look right in there.

The sides need much more detail before final fixing and I'm now beginning to understand what all the extra rivets are for on the cab sides, they tend to vary loco to loco but many are for the additional parts required for AWS etc. Speaking of which, the AWS battery box goes under the firemans seat, so the dias needs cutting shorter here to accommodate the box.
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
If your getting half round brass you could have some fun doing around the cab cut-outs.

You could have made them out of some copper wire, by tack soldering a length (size as required across the flat face) onto a length of brass. Then wrapping two lengths of wire around your file and draw filling it until the two wires runs along the brass.
 

demu1037

Western Thunderer
Well that took longer than expected.

additional parts required for AWS etc. Speaking of which, the AWS battery box goes under the firemans seat, so the dias needs cutting shorter here to accommodate the box.

recessesed in to the floor!
& relay unit under the drivers seat
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
recessesed in to the floor!
& relay unit under the drivers seat
:thumbs:
That appears to depend on the loco, on FS it's recessed into the dias under the firemans seat, on 60052, the dias has been cut back to expose the whole floor in that area. I've made my dias a cut back one, I also think on FS the firemans dias has a tapered side toward the fall plate area.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
The enginemen's dias.

The kit would have us assemble this (left hand drive), it's basically a horse shoe onto which the backhead sits.

IMG_6703a.JPG

The only problem here is that the area in the centre below the fire door isn't full width, it is in fact another box about 4/5th wide in the centre depressed area. You'd also need to trim some of the rear corners to get it to fit into the turn in's.

So onward with separate dias and now the problem of the backhead is readily apparent, somehow I've now got to blend a new part in the centre, then add the other box. The firemans dias is shorter to accommodate the AWS battery box discussed above.

The drivers side, well lets just say the rear face seems to have slipped and glue spilled out, so the drivers dias cover is just a place holder, in short all the wood will probably have to come out and be redone but the firemans cover can be saved as it's not glued down.

IMG_6705a.JPG

I used a two part epoxy, double bubble we call it at work, sticks most things, oddly the adhesive has stuck to the brass well enough but comes away from the fine grain ply too easily, anyone have any better adhesives? I'll try a test with 480 but not even sure that will get in the grain.

I also think the backhead may be a little shallow and may need spacing away from the cab front by a couple of mm, I'll cross check the GA when I get to that bridge.
 

demu1037

Western Thunderer
Arrgh - that's 3 locos now (4472/60052/2567) , all with different arrangements - interestingly, all ex RHD A1, i wonder if the A3 were more consistant?

Probably not....
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Andy, RTCS has a RHD and LHD cab shot side by side, the dias look the same on both but just transposed to suit the drivers position.

60052 is probably different due to AWS fitting, 4472 could be have that tapered section added later during preservation and may well have matched 60052 in service. 2567 looks like the two in RCTS, I.E. full length dias on each side.
 

Len Cattley

Western Thunderer
I used a two part epoxy, double bubble we call it at work, sticks most things, oddly the adhesive has stuck to the brass well enough but comes away from the fine grain ply too easily, anyone have any better adhesives?
Hi Mick try Thixofix, use a thin coat on the brass and wood.

Len
 

OzzyO

Western Thunderer
Sorry Mick, but I don't think that your reading the photos right! In this photo of an A4 cab it shows that the sides of the dias taper out towards the rear of the cab. You can make that out in your? photo of Mallards cab on the fireman's side. Yes I do realise that this is showing a flat sided cab.
001.jpg

This photo in the works could be misleading you as it looks like the driver side one runs to where the pipes are, but when you blow the photo up you can see just by the bottom of the door (if you zoom in you can just make out the rear corner) the rear edge of the dias showing above the one that will run across the backhead rear. This may also not be in the finished place? The gap between the raised floor across the backhead and the fireman's one could be for assess to the dampers?
Copy of 6425619611_b6e9cc263a_o.jpg

Another photo showing the AWS battery box in place with out the raised floor. It also shows where the rear bottom washout plug hole in the cab side is in relation to the boiler.
Copy of 10901374745_59610acdbd_o.jpg

A very good photo showing how the bottom rear washout plug was fitted to the boiler and why all of the cab floor was made out of wood and could be removed. If for nothing else the three mud holes just above the foundation ring. It also looks like a wash out plug was fitted inside of the cab at the firebox rear crown position.
Copy of 14159216750_aea3860132_o.jpg

All of the above photos are copy right and only used to show some points.

OzzyO.
 

demu1037

Western Thunderer
Sorry Mick, but I don't think that your reading the photos right! In this photo of an A4 cab it shows that the sides of the dias taper out towards the rear of the cab. You can make that out in your? photo of Mallards cab on the fireman's side. Yes I do realise that this is showing a flat sided cab.
View attachment 42675

This photo in the works could be misleading you as it looks like the driver side one runs to where the pipes are, but when you blow the photo up you can see just by the bottom of the door (if you zoom in you can just make out the rear corner) the rear edge of the dias showing above the one that will run across the backhead rear. This may also not be in the finished place? The gap between the raised floor across the backhead and the fireman's one could be for assess to the dampers?
View attachment 42676

Another photo showing the AWS battery box in place with out the raised floor. It also shows where the rear bottom washout plug hole in the cab side is in relation to the boiler.
View attachment 42677

A very good photo showing how the bottom rear washout plug was fitted to the boiler and why all of the cab floor was made out of wood and could be removed. If for nothing else the three mud holes just above the foundation ring. It also looks like a wash out plug was fitted inside of the cab at the firebox rear crown position.
View attachment 42678

All of the above photos are copy right and only used to show some points.

OzzyO.

Hi Ozzy,

A3 were quite noticeably straight originally, as per the RCTS vol2a figs 19 & 20. The picture of 52 shows a dias cut short of the AWS box, however 4472 has (had in 1992 ish) this:

Scan_20140916 (35).jpg

which is different to 52 & you can just see the edge bottom right. Also shows the 2nd level dias that appeared each side

Interestingly 4472 was in Darlington the same time as 52 - for a boiler change.

Andy
 

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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Ozzy, As far as I can tell, the A4 had tapered dias, the A3 had square ones.

The work photo of 60052 shows the firemans side and the AWS battery box under his seat, so the dias is truncated. It is a LHD loco, there's no reverser in front of the seat, though that could have been removed for servicing, but importantly the fire hole door is hinged to the left. The fire hole door hinge is always on the drivers side and swapped sides on conversion.

Image1.jpg

A larger view of 2567 in it's RHD format, not pedestal reverser and shovel guard hinged on the right, the fire hole door hinge is behind that.

Image2.jpg

Works photo of an A1, loco unknown, again RHD and showing pedestal reverser and both shovel guard and fire hole door hinges.

Both photos show the dias to be square, RCTS also shows two cabs, a RHD and LHD, both have dias that are square, however, all these photos are pre war so there's nothing to suggest there were no changes later in their lives.

As Andy points out, his photo shows that the firemans dias looks like it has been extended rearward and built around the AWS battery box, it also looks like it is tapered like an A4. I'm confident that the dias on 60052 in the works photo is correct and of the square cut back type, sadly we'll probably never know what was fitted to 60046 as it has been removed, cut back or built around the AWS battery box?

I know I have some more BR A3 cab shots in the mags, BRILL especially, I'll wade through them tonight and see if they offer any further glimpses.

A good source of photos are scrapped locos, sadly the A3 seem to be very camera shy in that respect, but I did find a good one of 60075 with the front cut off and lying in the foreground, it did show quite clearly the smaller combination lever hole in the frames on the RH side of the engine :thumbs:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Ozzy,

A3 were quite noticeably straight originally, as per the RCTS vol2a figs 19 & 20. The picture of 52 shows a dias cut short of the AWS box, however 4472 has (had in 1992 ish) this:

View attachment 42679

which is different to 52 & you can just see the edge bottom right. Also shows the 2nd level dias that appeared each side

Interestingly 4472 was in Darlington the same time as 52 - for a boiler change.

Andy
Andy, I'm now calling that 2nd level dias the foot rest LOL, there appears to be a small one each side for the engine men's feet, so we have cab floor, dias each side and foot rests each side, oh what fun:thumbs:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
First up this morning was a total strip down of the cab floor and wood, it just wasn't cutting it so it all came out, some new wood has been added but the rest will come later.

The trial fixing of wood with 480 worked really well and it took some considerable force to get the wood off the brass test strip, most of the adhesive remained ingrained in the wood and I suspect it only came off the brass strip as it was greasy and dirty, it was just a bit of scrap lying around. I will keep an eye out for that adhesive Len mentioned too, 480 is a bit expensive for mediocre details like wood floors.

Spurned on by that success I ventured to make some D beading from wire as mentioned by Ozzy above, however I didn't have any thinner wire to wrap around the file to get the right thickness, so I improvised.

I used 1mm electrical cable and found a length reasonably straight and recovered the wire from all the insulation, next it was soldered to a paxolin copper clad length of sleeper material, only because that's easier to hold in my vice.

IMG_6707a.JPG

Instead of wire wrapped around the file I found a piece of scrap etch the right thickness, in this case its a bit too thick at 0.65 mm but good enough to start with, taking it gently I started with a needle file, this being my first attempt at this.

IMG_6709a.JPG

What a waste of time, it's bloody hard this copper cable LOL, so out with the big guns.

IMG_6710a.JPG

Once it was all trimmed and flat I switched back the the needle files and swapped the 0.65 mm scrap for some 0.45 mm and finished off the process.

Adding it to the cab side was a trite difficult and yes in hind sight it might have been better to add it before the turn in was formed, having said that the beading would have got in the way of the clamp for forming the turn in....well the way I do it it would!

In the end it all went in about right.

IMG_6714a.JPG

IMG_6715a.JPG

It was whilst editing the photos for this thread that I pondered the beading shape, looks like an A3 but something was off, I appreciate that my cut out is almost one continuous curve and there should be a small vertical section in there, but looking at the cab sheet half etch there isn't much so this is about as good as it will get.

Next up were some measurements from the GA and RCTS notes and the error becomes clear, the opening is too small, not much, roughly about 1.5 mm, that and tighter radius would have given the required vertical straight section, on top of that the vertical cab handrails are also too tall, by, you guessed it 1.5 mm.

It's not much but to me it kind of throws off the whole area, am I happy? Not really, is there a solution? Not really, unless you want to make drastic changes to the kit cab sides, so for a first effort it'll have to do, of course the second side will also have to be done wrong exactly the same to match LOL

On the real cab there is also a D beading on the inside of the cut out.

Image3.jpg

We'll see how brave I am later on and whether I'll chance it all and add that in as well.

So big :thumbs: to Ozzy for giving me the germ of an idea that I might be able to do it myself, I'll store the ordered D beading when it arrives, bound to be a use for some straight bits in the future.

I'm now kind of wishing I had done the cab surrounds as well, rather than the supplied flat etches, it does make a hell of a difference visually :cool:

Onward!
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

I can claim to have done anything like the research that you have but this is what I did on my A3.

No seats in at this point and No AWS etc because its set in the early 1930's

IMG_6054_zpsf45e37cc.jpg
Rob, that looks about right from what I've found so far, not sure on the etched wood grain LOL but the wood colour looks bang on to me :thumbs:

I also like the simulated latch bolts on the centre box. I'm going to have to work out how to add them to mine now :rolleyes:

For mine I'll also try and add some very fine coal dust or grit in the corners, I know they were washed down regularly but some would of crept in.
 
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