Mickoo's BR modelling

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Despite all your misgivings, it's looking very good.

Unfortunately, you are in the position where you appear to have put more time into the research (or sources are better now) than the designer did. Perhaps the massage is you should draw up your own art work in future, and source castings from the trade.

Richard
Now that's a can of worms I was rather hoping to circumnavigate, but I did peer under the desk earlier and ponder which kits I should really be keeping.

Regarding art work, I'm still researching, not just the A3 but other ECML loco's and I do regret not being brave enough two months ago to put this all back in the box and start with a blank piece of paper. Now I really have too much time invested in it to do anything else but finish it, but the final level of fidelity remains to be seen.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Next up decided to open up the front cover plate for the combination levers, many locos in later days ran with this open so I opened up mine, added a handle to the door and retaining strap but drew the line at retaining pin and chain.
Surely a S7 pin and chain is no different to a FS pin and chain as fitted to Diamond Jubilee? (unless I am mistaken and there is no such fitting on DJ... )

;)

:thumbs:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Surely a S7 pin and chain is no different to a FS pin and chain as fitted to Diamond Jubilee? (unless I am mistaken and there is no such fitting on DJ... )

;)

:thumbs:
No it is not, nor a chain holding a pin on a PO wagon brake lever ;) However, as I'm correcting so many 'larger' details the enthusiasm is being sapped from the smaller details, more importantly, details that my skill set cannot yet accomplish to my satisfaction :cool:

Diamond Jubilee is a very good model and I use images of that as reference all the time, if only to see how one producer makes his rendition of an A3 over others, all are very good bases for models but all suffer minor issues in certain areas. All makes will produce a fine A3 out of the box for a 'moving' style of layout, but if your modelling a depot or a terminus say, then all of then meed a little extra I feel, especially if the layout is not at the normal gods eye viewing height.

Finally, I don't do this because I have to, I do it because I choose to.

Frustrating as it can/has/will be, the research is fascinating to unravel.
 
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Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Frustrating as it can/has/will be, the research is fascinating to unravel.

And I am a major beneficiary of Mick's A3 research, as he has identified two areas where I need further work on DJ. One where I tossed a 50/50 mental coin and got it wrong, and one where I couldn't readily get the information. So I am very grateful to Mick for making his research available to me.

I also know exactly what he means about enthusiasm for a project draining away. I suffer from this all the time, which is why I have so many different projects on the go. I come across something else that needs more work than anticipated and have a 'sod it' moment and go on to something else, often waiting years to go back to the original project - normally when a new casting/etching/process appears that enables me to tackle the original fault, or my skill set has improved.

Cheers

Richard
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Seek and ye shall be rewarded :thumbs:

After some more digging this morning I chanced across this image, it quite clearly shows the two differing sized holes in each side of the frame.
Image2.jpg

What it also shows, circled in red, is the outside cylinder casting clearly protrudes above the main frames and above the valve gear cover, a quick check of A3 photos shows that most of the casting is covered behind the steam pipe cover....phew....but some is also visible ahead of it and behind the lubricators, another detail to add in due course.

Anyway, back to holes, sizes or lack of. The above image is noted as 1932, it's hard to tell from the image whether this is a new build or a repair, especially as no new builds were built in 1932, 1930 and 1934 yes, but not 1932, nor can we see the rear valve spindle casting to help us, it changed shape between the two batches to an A4 style on the last (1934) batch.

However, in 1932 older locos were having their frames replaced from the rear driver forward due to serious cracking and failures, the problem with that line of thought is that so far, I cannot find any re-framed locos with a circular ahead of the cylinders, you can just make it out on the left hand side behind the combination lever. All major batches were built with that hole up front yet by late BR days it appears that only the last batch retained it, primarily because their frames were (as far as current research goes) never rebuilt. None of which actually helps us decide which loco this is or more importantly if the combination holes the same across the fleet...below.

A crop shot of a Flying Scotsman during her NRM rebuild
Image3.jpg

Clearly a large hole on the left hand side and a nice view of the bogie pivot stretcher ;) Both images have had the combination lever stretcher removed to show more details, it's quite a hefty casting all told. However no clear image of the right hand side.

A more modern photo shows that the current rebuild now has a whole new front end welded on, which now makes Flying Scotsman unique in having a three part frame as opposed to the original two part frame.
nov2014-3.jpg

Clearly both holes are the same size, now before we all cry that's what model developers have based there models on, this was fabricated last year I believe, most 7mm A3 models were drawn up long before that. The frames will have been made to a set of drawings but which ones and is the larger right hand hole normal or a recent alteration, either way, one can clearly see that the hole is significantly smaller than those supplied on pretty much all of the current 7mm kits available.

Finally we come to a frame drawing
Image1.jpg

This is from an A4, both classes are similar in many areas on frame work and it can clearly be seen that there are two sizes of hole, a fact backed up with photos I took at NRM a few years ago, it also matches the first photo we have shown and being as the last batch had A4 rear valve guide castings we can probably assume the first photo is one of the 1934 batch and probably the first of that batch 2500 (60035) under construction, I've no idea how long it took them back then to build a loco but 2500 entered revenue service in Jul 1934. At a stretch the first photo could be late 32?

The biggest fly in all this is that RCTS notes all later rebuilt locos should conform with this type of new end regarding lightening holes, but does that statement also encompass combination lever openings.

I've yet to find a frame only drawing for the A3, having said that there are at least three original (factory built) frame shapes and a possible two or three variations to the rebuilt front ends and there's nothing to suggest either way that those rebuilt with the first variation did not suffer problems and were rebuilt again with a later variant.

Anyway, onwards!
 
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Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Frustrating as it can/has/will be, the research is fascinating to unravel.
I so understand what you are saying... sometimes unravelling the past can present a picture which is different to the perceived wisdom and getting on top of that disconnect is a personal challenge.

... I don't do this because I have to, I do it because I choose to.
Exactly, please continue to educate those of us who understand and respect your chosen path.

regards, Graham
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
And I am a major beneficiary of Mick's A3 research, as he has identified two areas where I need further work on DJ. One where I tossed a 50/50 mental coin and got it wrong, and one where I couldn't readily get the information. So I am very grateful to Mick for making his research available to me.

I also know exactly what he means about enthusiasm for a project draining away. I suffer from this all the time, which is why I have so many different projects on the go. I come across something else that needs more work than anticipated and have a 'sod it' moment and go on to something else, often waiting years to go back to the original project - normally when a new casting/etching/process appears that enables me to tackle the original fault, or my skill set has improved.

Cheers

Richard
I know the A3 is a long slow burner, but what I sent in that PM may need tweaking as I dig deeper ;)

I need a trip to NRM, I was hoping to tie it in with Flying Scotsmans return and hopefully get some photos underneath and inside, last time they stuck her on the turn table and access was impossible, she won't be there long as I think she is going to take up main line running duties and as a working engine will be almost impossible to get access to. However I still need to go through their drawings and order some or spend a few days up there copying by hand the ones I need, there's no restriction to you sitting at a fiche machine and copying by hand what you can see.

I also want to look at and possibly order some photos, their on line photo page isn't all inclusive, it can't be, there must be hundreds of construction photos and even rebuild photos that will help no end.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Before
Image1.jpg

After
Image2.jpg

I think it's worth the effort, so will continue with the other side, it's not all fixed in place yet and the drain cock linkage had to go as it was in the way and in slightly the wrong position, so that's no issue as it had to be moved anyway. I may need to tweak the rebate for the bogie front splasher, they have a little taper to the leading edge but no where near the extent of the original half etch which can just be seen under the new overlay. The are full width up to 12 'O' clock and taper off to finish around 13:00.

The camera does show that the bogie stretcher is clearly on the wonk, so that'll have to come out next and be levelled. Sand boxes already removed and footplate marked to aid material removal and raise sand boxes to correct height.

Onward!
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hold on you guys... we are going to have to check our A4s to keep up.
No need to check your A4's, I can tell you already they are almost certainly all wrong, Finney (it was the first box I opened under the bench last night to check), and Hachette all have incorrect frames in this area as are their A3's (DJH included). The Piercy A4 looks correct and the Hachette Partworks frames have two holes the same size and are the correct dimensions for a left hand opening, as far as I can tell so far, all the others have over large slots or gaps where the combination levers pass through.

I have one set of Hachette frames and will probably live with the right hand being twice height, but the other three will get new frames and I'll make a forth for the Finney kit, though I am thinking of making one of the Hachette A4's into 60700 but haven't made detailed studies yet of what is required to pull that off, initially it just looks like new rear frame ends and new cab.

It is possible that some A3's have two openings of the larger size, Flying Scotsman certainly has now, buggered if I can find a photo of that area before the latest frame repairs though :headbang: I've only skipped through the mags on my desk and a couple of books to check other locos, still have all the big detailed volumes to trawl and other mags that show just one or two A3 images as opposed to articles on A3's which I currently have to one side. But A4's should have from factory, one large and one small.
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Quite incredible research mate..!

As mentioned before though you're lucky (unlucky?!) enough to choose a prototype that has a tonne if information I suspect..

JB.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Fantastic work Mickoo, will you be making your research available to other people?
Of course, though to be fair all I'm doing is rounding up a lot of other information where I can and correlating it.

As popular as A3s are, I can't believe for one minute that I'm discovering anything new LOL and I'm only concentrating on BR from the mid 50's, though my chosen date is summer 62 for both ECML and WCML projects.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Quite incredible research mate..!

As mentioned before though you're lucky (unlucky?!) enough to choose a prototype that has a tonne if information I suspect..

JB.
Yup, ECML is a wealth of information and books, not just locos but services and the route too.

Out there is a list of every loco that worked the Elizabethan, I've not seen it and doubt it's public, but I've read it's a life long project of one guy and virtually complete. Loco cards are virtually intact for A3 and A4 classes, every shopping, date and duration and often a brief description of major works carried out. RCTS details at exhaustive length technical aspects and changes to the locos.

Yet no where is there a detailed narrative about something as fundamental as loco frame replacements, it's not as though it's some insignificant part bolted on, the locos were completely stripped down and whole new front ends grafted on from the rear driver forward, and it spread over tens of years, one being done as late as 1958. NRM drawing lists are extensive but not one mention of new frames or a drawing of the new extensions is made, not that I can find, so yes a huge amount of information, but most a lot of it rubbish for modellers.

I'm sure there is much more at NRM, it'll just take time to discover it and correlate it.

Back to the model, I've just realised that my bogie stretcher, now straightened is from the original A1 drawings :headbang: the photo above showing the current one is what I think it should look like :rolleyes:, now that drawing I'm sure does exist :thumbs:
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Of course, though to be fair all I'm doing is rounding up a lot of other information where I can and correlating it.

That Mick, is the essence of research. 'All' rather sells it short! Just so long as you're clear to state where the info' comes from all good.

Adam
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
This web site may have some photo that could help you,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/sets/72157603696486994/

OzzyO.
Bills site is great and we have linked Flickr sites so I get any update he posts, sadly he concentrates more on the wetter side of the country, I say sadly as I do like my LMR a lot, just not applicable to this project, but very applicable to others ;) Bill is slowly going through some of the better shots and rescanning in high res, so I do keep an eye out for what he posts.

I've trawled Flickr dozens of times with different search strings, but the real gems are ones with no tags or descriptions, these you'll never find with the search engine other than by pure chance, often they will post one image to a user group and by chance it'll catch your eye so you visit their site and it's an Aladdins cave.

Corkers like these
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/14049016067/sizes/h/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/14048956549/sizes/h/
and
https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/14255778253/sizes/h/

Interesting not only for locos but lineside and railway infrastructure.

Better yet
14348187763_afb178e8f5_b.jpg"Merry Hampton" at Rest by captain tower, on Flickr

You do have to watch what you search for, example A3 brakes or cylinders or wheels and you'll be inundated by those ever efficient German auto manufacturers.....Audi!

Enjoy!
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Moving onward and after successful clearance testing on Sunday with the rear truck (more details anon) the next step is the brake gear, on soon to be next step as I may do the new smokebox saddle first.

Before the brake gear can go on the wheels need trimming back, there's very little clearance between the rims and the brake hanger pivots so the flanges need trimming back first of all and whilst doing that I take my obligatory 10 thou off the back to give extra side play at the rail head...not at the frames which are still virtually zero sideplay.

Traditionally I just stuff the wheel on an axle into the chuck but with 6'9" wheels the rim was flexing too much and Slaters wheels are a pig for being square on the axle in the first place! So, it was time to step up to turning wheels correctly...nearly...I always try to find short cuts LOL.

First off acquire some brass bar, good old bay of E and a nice message to the supplier found two discs of 45 mm bar 18 mm thick drop through the door today so it was off to the lathe for some turning work.

I fitted the reverse jaws and had hoped that the discs / pucks would just fit in the outer jaws, but it was not to be, the minimum closure is about 48 mm.

Image1.jpg

Thus they need to go into the middle set.

Image2.jpg

Overall I'm not that happy with that much jaw sticking out of the chuck and its only a couple of turns of the chuck key before they drop out so decided to just take a bit off one end so that the jaws tighten a little better.

Image3.jpg

I can always take off more at a later date and may use the smaller backside as the base for smaller dia wheels and machine it like the front.....below.

Image4.jpg

Swapping the puck round I cleaned it up all over, faced it off square and added a depressed centre and drilled out the centre to take a Slaters 3/16" axle.Image5.jpg

On the smaller dia I punched and drilled a 3 mm hole in a machine vice on the pillar drill and then tapped 4 mm all the way through to the centre hole for a retaining bolt to hold the axle in place.

Image6.jpg

The axle sits just proud of the depression and can be moved in and out as deemed necessary.

Image7.jpg

The reason for the depressed centre is apparent here, when facing the rear face (badly in the case above!) of the tyre the boss and crank casting stands proud of the rim so will sit in the depressed area and ensure the rim is hard up against the puck for full support.

Image8.jpg

I'm not sure but I'm guessing the thickness of the boss and crank casting vary in thickness, hence the adjustable axle retaining screw, you will always be able to adjust the axle so that the rim sits flush with the puck. I also centre punched the chuck to align with the retaining screw so that the puck always goes back in the same place.

Having done the rear and skimmed the rim to more pleasing profile it was time to do the front.

Image9.jpg

This needs to be done with caution, 2 thou at a time and you can safely.....so far.... take off 10 thou and maybe 14 thou at a real push before the rim becomes too thin. All this skimming produces wheels that are almost exact thickness for the real deal, the wheels start out at about 3.9 mm thick and end up at 3.25 mm, the real loco is scaled at 3.14 mm.

Image10.jpg

Bit hard to tell, but the centre wheels are the correct size between the two other axles.

There are other ways to turn wheels but this is the most comfortable for me and there's plenty of traction from the axle through the spokes to the rim if you take nice easy cuts, 2 thou or less.

Once all three sets are done I can then add the hangers, cross beam and start fabricating the brake shoes as the insulation unlike the A1 tender will be here, that's the plan anyway. I also need to take a sliver off the retaining screw boss at the wheel centre and the boss for the crank pin, the A3 wheels are not flush but the boss's are not that large.

The leading bogie wheels are the same profile as the drivers, so the thinning there will help greatly with clearances up against the now correct profiled outside cylinders, even with their prototypical cut out at the rear face.

In other news, CAD work progresses on the tender etches, though it's not full steam ahead yet as I cannot decide on 15 or 18 thou NS as the source material.
I'd like to keep all the art work on one size material, even for the locos and have already decided on laminated main frames, but, it's the combination of two full thickness's or one full and one half etch with exterior detail, both have merits and only one combination is true scale frame thickness, the one using 18 thou NS and that's quite a hard material and thickness to bend easily elsewhere on the model (footplate, tender cantrail etc)

Anyway, Onward!
 
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daifly

Western Thunderer
Thanks Mick. That's a really helpful sequence. Did you, perchance, take a photo of the turning in process with the cutting tool doing its stuff? If so, could you post it please.

Cheers

Dave
 
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