4mm Monks: perhaps NOT a Classic Minories - for a grandchild.

[simond]

Jonte,

I’ve just studied your photos, and it looks tight to me, but just to be sure, you have connected the blue wire to both coils on each point motor? I don’t have a Peco solenoid motor, but the pictures appear to show two coils, each with two connections. You have a pair of browns to provide the feed, you return needs to be attached to both coils.

It’s difficult to see for sure on your photos.

I know you raided the mower extension lead, but just a thought, rolls of “hook-up” wire aren’t expensive, and using several colours makes wiring, and fault-finding, so much easier! Red for track feed, black for return, green for frog feeds (obviously, frogs are green) blue for point motor common, yellow for point motor normal and orange for point motor reverse, for example. Couple more colours for your lighting and signals…

eg Plusivo 24AWG Hook Up Wire Kit - 6 Colors (9m each)

lots of choice on eBay of course

hang in there, we’ll sort it.
Simon

 

[simond]

A multimeter would be a useful tool, but if not, a battery, bulb and a couple of test probes is worth making up. It allows you to check what you’ve done. It seems very odd that several point motors only work one way. One duff one, yes, several? Hmmm.

 

[JimG]

I'm with SimonD. I think you have a wiring fault common to one side of your point motor solenoids. I'm assuming that you've wired one side of the point motor coils to a common return to the supply voltage and it could be that the common return on one side of the coils isn't returning. As Simon says, a cheap multimeter will let you check out the circuitry - here's a cheap one on Amazon which will help you out. You don't need to spend a lot of money for the job you want to do.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276297334576&psc=1

[Later] Battery not included - you'll need to supply a PP3 battery

Jim

 

[jonte]

Jonte, I understand you are not very familiar with electric trick, but do you have any possibility to measure the voltage that actuates you motors? One reason for all your trouble might be that the operating voltage is just too low.
I am not familiar with these Peco motors, but I had a similar problem with the solenoids at some Viessmann semaphore signals.
Michael

Hi Michael

You’re dead right: total ignorance on my part I’m afraid.

However, providing ‘grunt’ shouldn’t be an issue as far as I can tell, as I’ve fitted a CDU which I think you might just be able to make out in the photograph above. From what I’ve read, and from the kind postings of others, that should circumvent any ‘power’ issues.

Hope that’s of use?

Jonte

 

[jonte]

Jonte,

I’ve just studied your photos, and it looks tight to me, but just to be sure, you have connected the blue wire to both coils on each point motor? I don’t have a Peco solenoid motor, but the pictures appear to show two coils, each with two connections. You have a pair of browns to provide the feed, you return needs to be attached to both coils.

It’s difficult to see for sure on your photos.

I know you raided the mower extension lead, but just a thought, rolls of “hook-up” wire aren’t expensive, and using several colours makes wiring, and fault-finding, so much easier! Red for track feed, black for return, green for frog feeds (obviously, frogs are green) blue for point motor common, yellow for point motor normal and orange for point motor reverse, for example. Couple more colours for your lighting and signals…

eg Plusivo 24AWG Hook Up Wire Kit - 6 Colors (9m each)

lots of choice on eBay of course

hang in there, we’ll sort it.
Simon

Hiya, Simon, and thank you as always!

Here’s a photo which I hope should show the wiring:



Hopefully it shows the blue wire attached to a wire which is soldered to the coils on one side, and two browns on the other which go to either side of the on/off/on switch. Hopefully you can also see the circuit wiring for both brown and blue wires for the CDU.

I know the system’s working as the non extended pin variety and one of the extended pin variety (I’ve since discovered) are working with the clunk typical of a CDU.

I don’t know if you read my intermediate post but it looks like the motors were playing up when I tested them, only I didn’t this at the time as I wasn’t really sure how they should have performed to be honest.

I’ve also tested continuity of everything as I’ve gone along using the ‘shorting’ light on the Gaugemaster controller to indicate a curcuit. I probably shouldn’t but……….

Thanks for attaching the links: visitors just arrived so I’ll check ‘em out later if that’s okay?

Thanks for all your help.

Jonte

 

[jonte]

I'm with SimonD. I think you have a wiring fault common to one side of your point motor solenoids. I'm assuming that you've wired one side of the point motor coils to a common return to the supply voltage and it could be that the common return on one side of the coils isn't returning. As Simon says, a cheap multimeter will let you check out the circuitry - here's a cheap one on Amazon which will help you out. You don't need to spend a lot of money for the job you want to do.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276297334576&psc=1

[Later] Battery not included - you'll need to supply a PP3 battery

Jim

Hi Jim

I really appreciate your time and effort on my behalf, Jim. I really do need to invest in one of these: sooner rather than later so thank you for the prompt.

I shall check back as you outline in your post but I did check everything as I went along (to the best of my very limited ability) albeit using )or should I say ‘abusing’ the Gaugemaster in the process!

Cheers

Jonte

 

[jonte]

The new ‘Peco point motor with the extended pin’ idea turned out to be a bum steer, fellow Westerners.

Turned out that the extended pin wasn’t extended enough and wasn’t quite long enough to poke thro’ hole, underlay and tie bar at the same time, which to be fair is a big ask at at least an inch and a quarter. And as discovered the other day, Peco have since widened the diameter of the pin, so the only remaining extension pin wouldn’t fit. So that was that. Poring over videos by a number of manufacturers after kindly being pointed in their directions by fellow posters, I realised I was beginning to lose sight that after all was said and done, it was just a good ol’ fashioned train set, so I shall leave the new technology for a future modelling project.

As I couldn’t face the prospect of starting again and building new ‘thinner’ baseboards, there was nothing for it but to remove the motors and employ the older variety of motor attached directly to the point as per my now only working example. Which of course means yet more drilling and more holes.

Motors removed and wiring unfastened from sections of track:



Holes marked for location of new point motors and track removed:



First one gone in:




Now my drill bit has lost its sharpness and will need replacing, so here progress will take a temporary breather until I can pick up a replacement.

Still disappointed but at least I’m moving on.

Cheers,

Jonte

 

[Alan]

Again I wish there was a sympathy button. I've never had these problems as my layouts have always had hand operaged pointsInitially actually using the lever on the point and my last two layouts using wire in the tube.

 

[simond]

I’m sorry for your frustration, Jonte.

do please check the coils on the motors you have.

You can use your CDU, or a meter, or the battery & bulb that I suggested a few posts back.

you need to verify that both coils work, and then verify that your wiring is right!

fingers crossed, the wiring is ok. It would be good to know what’s wrong.

Atb
Simon

 

[jonte]

Again I wish there was a sympathy button. I've never had these problems as my layouts have always had hand operaged pointsInitially actually using the lever on the point and my last two layouts using wire in the tube.

Thanks, Alan.

Bit of a nuisance but at least it’s not glued down, so things could be worse!

I like wire in tube myself Alan, and with the very thick cork I’m using, disguising it would have been a doddle with some nice deep channels to hide it all in - but I still love flicking switches being the biggest kid of all!

A bonus will be evident when I come to glue down the track and ballast all in one go; before hand, I risked popping the tie bar off the pin as I did earlier ( with the rigmarole of having to centre everything again) in order to get the glue under the track - imagine doing that with wet glue and loose ballast all over the place At least the motor will lift up with the track with this method, so thankful for small mercies

Hopefully when it’s down, I can paint over the lugs of the motors to make them not so prominent, but I suppose that’s just the nature of the beast. At least we’ll be able to have fun setting the road.

Thanks once again, Alan.

Jonte

 

[jonte]

I’m sorry for your frustration, Jonte.

do please check the coils on the motors you have.

You can use your CDU, or a meter, or the battery & bulb that I suggested a few posts back.

you need to verify that both coils work, and then verify that your wiring is right!

fingers crossed, the wiring is ok. It would be good to know what’s wrong.

Atb
Simon

As long is it works in the end, Simon, I’ll be happy enough

I’m going to replace all six motors with new ones: the non extended pin variety that’s been working so well on the seventh point, so the removed ones will become redundant. No big deal really as I’ve had them eons, so it’s about time I put my hand in my pocket

I took one off earlier this morning and tested it with the feeds of the Gaugemaster controller, and it acted in exactly the same way as it did prior to fitting AND eventually on the layout: hovers between both coils. Although the motor moved the blades in one direction, it couldn’t move it in the opposite direction. Eventually, the pin just moved left and right within the diameter of the hole in the tie bar without moving the blades at all. It couldn’t have been lack of power as the CDU is working fine: I discovered this after moving the blades of the one good point I have in one direction, while unbeknown to me the power had been switched off, and panicked when it failed to move them in the opposite direction. Transpired that the movement was made by residual current in the CDU after my wife had disconnected the power. She’s a stickler for that, but I nearly lost the plot!!

There were no dry joints as I tested each of the three leads with the short circuit light on the Gaugemaster.

Compare the performances of those with the new ones bought over the last couple of days which passed firmly to each coil when current applied and stayed there until current was reapplied to the opposite coil.
It is indeed a ‘mystery ’ in the words of Ms. Wilcox.

Sorry that my ignorance prevents any further forensic examination in a manner fitting of your consummate expertise, Simon.
I’m afraid my ‘A’ Level Physics was not one jot of use in this respect (or perhaps I was too busy dreaming of model railways when we covered the relevant aspect of the topic!).

Thanks once again for your kind interest and concern.

Jonte

 

[simond]

Ah, yes, Ms Wilcox. I do recall, an actor, RSC if I’m not mistaken. She’s been doing lockdown Sunday lunch on YouTube I believe, with her other half, a musician of some talent. You may care to look in, it may amuse…

I’m deeply perplexed by your motors. If you’d care to send me one I’d like to interrogate it!

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

She’s been doing lockdown Sunday lunch on YouTube I believe, with her other half, a musician of some talent.

Robert Fripp of prog rock band King Crimson.

 

[jonte]

Ah, yes, Ms Wilcox. I do recall, an actor, RSC if I’m not mistaken. She’s been doing lockdown Sunday lunch on YouTube I believe, with her other half, a musician of some talent. You may care to look in, it may amuse…

I’m deeply perplexed by your motors. If you’d care to send me one I’d like to interrogate it!

Hiya, Simon.

PM sent

Have darkened room, bright lamp, two chairs and electrodes at the ready (cigarettes optional)!

Jonte

 

[simond]

Just in case anyone is wondering what we are blethering on about, TOYAH & ROBERT’S SUNDAY LUNCH — TOYAH

 

[jonte]

With the aid of a new drill bit, fellow Westerners, the chasms for the replacement point motors were drilled, then shaped with hacksaw blade and file until the required sizes (plus elbow room) were reached:



Luckily, the only casualty of the drilling process was a bus wire which was simple to replace; how I got away without further harm to all that wiring is anyone’s guess.

Remedial action wasn’t yet finished though: whilst relaying the track, a soldered joint between factory fitted frog wire and underneath of crossing became detached (they were always suspect) when poking back through hole, so it was back out with the soldering iron. On examination, it was obvious that the chisel bit of my 25W Weller wasn’t going to be able to reconnect with wire without melting the base, so the only solution that I could see was to remove the web between the sleepers just after the hollowed out sleeper that accommodates the wire, and fit a replacement:



Not as invisible as the factory fitted wire, but a whole lot more robust. I’m surprised that others haven’t gone the same way before now!

And here we are at the close of the play, with the track relaid and wires fitted back into their respective blocks:




I’m glad that’s behind me.

Next, it’s the purchase of six Peco point motors of the short pin variety, then home to solder on some more wires.

Cheers.

Jonte

 

[Alan]

Nice flowing curves Jonte

 

[jonte]

Nice flowing curves Jonte

Thanks, Alan.

Have been trying to keep them as shallow as possible to reduce overhang of coaches/longer locomotives.

You may see the Peco track spacing gauge (red) in one of the photos. I’ve been allowing a little more than the gauge permits to help with separation of stock on parallel tracks. Fingers crossed there’ll be no mishaps

Jonte​

 

[jonte]

I’ve lifted the track once again, fellow Westerners.

Ever since the thought of digging out the base to accommodate the point motors in this way came to mind, I’ve been considering how I might fill the voids left behind. Whichever method I chose it had to be congruous with my chosen method of laying track and ballasting in one go. Latest idea was to fit motors first then raise track while brushing the glue on underneath. But then there would be awkward shaped gaps left to fill around the motors. So that wouldn’t do. No the best way I figured - and probably most labour/time intensive of all (even if I could think another way!) was to remove the track again and lay pieces of graph paper across the gaps, which would make it easier to cover:



A recent experiment using the graph paper method, whereby the cork underlay and the whole of the piece of paper were wetted with Pva, resulted in a drum-taut covering upon which the track could be layed without any noticeable hump. This would make it easier to pierce with a piece of brass wire for marking out the required holes below point for the fitting of point motors. The motor could be offered up, wired temporarily into the system for testing and then removed again for gluing down and ballasting track, then permanently fitted once accomplished.
Removing the track ensures that there are no chances of the points becoming stuck to the glue-wetted surfaces of the graph paper as it dries beneath.

So that’s the method in my madness. No doubt you’re all far cleverer than me and will have thought of much easier ways of accomplishing same, but it’s the best I could manage.

Cheers for now,

Jonte

 

[Roger Pound]

Good move to allow that extra space if your grandson elects to have some modern dmu's. CJF's original design was strictly steam age - with which I have no argument I hasten to add - but one must take in to account progress and the likes of the younger enthusiasts.
I must admit to being with Alan on the subject of point control - I have suffered disappointment whilst using both Peco and Seep motors in the past and now tend to use lever control - occasionally wire and tube where the unit is difficult to reach. I do admire your persistence to solve the problems you have encountered - a satisfactory outcome will be hard earned but well deserved .
Cheers,
Roger