Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
What a load of rubbish! Modelling all the waste paper caught in the chain link fence and around the cess will be a challenge!
Ian.
4mm Monks: perhaps NOT a Classic Minories - for a grandchild.
- Thread starter jonte
- Start date
What a load of rubbish! Modelling all the waste paper caught in the chain link fence and around the cess will be a challenge!
Ian.
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
This is a very interesting photo in it's own right but also appears to cover both aspects of the ballasting of sleeper ends. The Class 33 is approaching a point which has sleeper ends around the tie-bar covered whilst the other ends are clear. The point on the parallel road has all sleepers proud of the ballast. It does really create a situation where one must either do in depth research to be totally accurate or contrive to create a scene that personally satisfies oneself. I happily confess that the latter is my preference.
As you said to me elsewhere, there's a prototype for everything which can be constantly proved by photographic evidence. That is one of the other reasons that I love this great hobby
!Roger
jonte
Western Thunderer
This is a very interesting photo in it's own right but also appears to cover both aspects of the ballasting of sleeper ends. The Class 33 is approaching a point which has sleeper ends around the tie-bar covered whilst the other ends are clear. The point on the parallel road has all sleepers proud of the ballast. It does really create a situation where one must either do in depth research to be totally accurate or contrive to create a scene that personally satisfies oneself. I happily confess that the latter is my preference.
As you said to me elsewhere, there's a prototype for everything which can be constantly proved by photographic evidence. That is one of the other reasons that I love this great hobby
Bless you, Roger
Jonte
Roger
jonte
Western Thunderer
jonte
Western Thunderer
Thank you all for your kind interest and likes, fellow Westerners, and for understanding my shortcomings. You are all most generous.
Talking of which, I drew a deep breath and bit the bullet: I glued down the track earlier and poured on that Sandy ballast I cooked up:
No going back now.
Despite umpteen Hail Mary’s, I’m still not sure if it’s back in the right place (didn’t want the glue too thick as it overlaps the sleepers or too thin as it would go off too quickly, but the thickness of the glue in practise - and being white rather than clear - masked many of my marks), or if the tie bars will continue to move when it all dries
Fingers crossed, hey?
The procedure was to put the glue down one point at a time, unless they were alongside each other, to save the glue going off too early. I wanted to ballast as I went along, but as it was necessary to lift the points after being laid to gain leverage on an adjacent one, I reckoned that it would just get under the sleepers so that the point would no longer sit flat when replaced, so that was that. It would have to wait until the end. Problem was, I was in danger as I say of the glue going off, but there wasn’t much I could do about it really. Just have to trust to luck and Our Lady. The PVA I used was given to me by brother in law and is thinner in consistency the wood glue I have, with the benefit of taking longer to dry, but that said, this took a little longer than anticipated trying to keep glue clear of the tie bars and then sticky fingers transferring it to the rails, and those darned insulating joiners really are a pain to join being so flimsy!
Never mind. Last time I checked the tie bars were still moving and the track went back near enough to where it was, but whether the ballast will stick is anyone’s guess ( I reckon most of it will, but in areas first lain down and where the glue may have already gone off, I suspect I may have to revisit ). This won’t be a disaster, but will slow down proceedings considerably.
So that’s it for today.
I’ll let you know how it goes.
Jonte
Talking of which, I drew a deep breath and bit the bullet: I glued down the track earlier and poured on that Sandy ballast I cooked up:
No going back now.
Despite umpteen Hail Mary’s, I’m still not sure if it’s back in the right place (didn’t want the glue too thick as it overlaps the sleepers or too thin as it would go off too quickly, but the thickness of the glue in practise - and being white rather than clear - masked many of my marks), or if the tie bars will continue to move when it all dries
Fingers crossed, hey?The procedure was to put the glue down one point at a time, unless they were alongside each other, to save the glue going off too early. I wanted to ballast as I went along, but as it was necessary to lift the points after being laid to gain leverage on an adjacent one, I reckoned that it would just get under the sleepers so that the point would no longer sit flat when replaced, so that was that. It would have to wait until the end. Problem was, I was in danger as I say of the glue going off, but there wasn’t much I could do about it really. Just have to trust to luck and Our Lady. The PVA I used was given to me by brother in law and is thinner in consistency the wood glue I have, with the benefit of taking longer to dry, but that said, this took a little longer than anticipated trying to keep glue clear of the tie bars and then sticky fingers transferring it to the rails, and those darned insulating joiners really are a pain to join being so flimsy!
Never mind. Last time I checked the tie bars were still moving and the track went back near enough to where it was, but whether the ballast will stick is anyone’s guess ( I reckon most of it will, but in areas first lain down and where the glue may have already gone off, I suspect I may have to revisit ). This won’t be a disaster, but will slow down proceedings considerably.
So that’s it for today.
I’ll let you know how it goes.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Just a line, fellow Westerners, to let you know how the ‘sticking down’ went.
I’m delighted to report that my prayers didn’t go unanswered, and that the track and ballast have managed to cling on for dear life. Best of all, the switch blades still work!
Yeah, I know: it looks bolody awful. But I had to leave room for the placing of signals (how many and where I’m not quite sure) and some missing sleepers, but it can be tidied up when the straight sections have been affixed, but that won’t be until after further testing to ensure that the track, besides being back in the right place, still plays ball. And of course, the wires will need to be incorporated into the loom again before I can do that, but shouldn’t take long.
Elsewhere, I hooked up the point motors to the base of the points via the paper screens, and these have been attached temporarily until I’ve tested them this afternoon to ensure they work! That will be a relief:
Currently, I’m half way through rewiring them, but as I say, should complete testing later. Fingers crossed.
Jonte
I’m delighted to report that my prayers didn’t go unanswered, and that the track and ballast have managed to cling on for dear life. Best of all, the switch blades still work!
Yeah, I know: it looks bolody awful. But I had to leave room for the placing of signals (how many and where I’m not quite sure) and some missing sleepers, but it can be tidied up when the straight sections have been affixed, but that won’t be until after further testing to ensure that the track, besides being back in the right place, still plays ball. And of course, the wires will need to be incorporated into the loom again before I can do that, but shouldn’t take long.
Elsewhere, I hooked up the point motors to the base of the points via the paper screens, and these have been attached temporarily until I’ve tested them this afternoon to ensure they work! That will be a relief:
Currently, I’m half way through rewiring them, but as I say, should complete testing later. Fingers crossed.
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Chuffed to report, fellow Westerners, that the point motors are happily and firmly clicking away to their hearts’ content 
However, my joy will be short lived: so busy with the model railway, I forgot about the Gas man coming to repair/service the boiler, as noted by his card through letter box on my return - the model’s outside so unless contact is made via my mobile, I’m incommunicado.
Needless to say, I’m in hot water……….
Jonte
However, my joy will be short lived: so busy with the model railway, I forgot about the Gas man coming to repair/service the boiler, as noted by his card through letter box on my return - the model’s outside so unless contact is made via my mobile, I’m incommunicado.
Needless to say, I’m in hot water……….
Jonte
jonte
Western Thunderer
Well, this board is ready for a test in the morning, and all being well I can move onto the adjoining board which will accommodate the station platforms - at long last.
The ballasting hasn’t turned out as well as expected: each time I change the points, it seems as though a little more ballast works loose, especially at the left hand as you face it, which is the end I started relaying the track and which no doubt and as I suspected, the glue went off a little too early. It was possibly applied too sparingly as well. Upshot is, I need to find a better ballasting method, but the usual laying level with the tops of the sleepers won’t work here for my reasons given earlier. To that end, I shall make a practice piece of track to, well…..practise on. I’ve a couple of ideas in mind, but not sure if any will work or might just be too time consuming. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Rather than test your patience with all these possibly too frequent posts, I’ll leave the developments of the platform board off which I’m hoping will be pretty straightforward after this one - just jinxed it! So unforeseen disasters apart, I’ll have a brief break from posting for which I’m sure most will be grateful.
To end, and talking of practice pieces, I’m pretty happy that the colour mixes I’ve cooked up for the track and ballast more or less match the photo I’m working from, and so apart from the odd wash here or there and maybe the application of a touch of pigment, I think I’ll run with it.
Here are the results (rail went too dark but will be avoided on the real thing) and the photo for comparison:
Thanks all for your forbearance.
Cheers.
Jonte
The ballasting hasn’t turned out as well as expected: each time I change the points, it seems as though a little more ballast works loose, especially at the left hand as you face it, which is the end I started relaying the track and which no doubt and as I suspected, the glue went off a little too early. It was possibly applied too sparingly as well. Upshot is, I need to find a better ballasting method, but the usual laying level with the tops of the sleepers won’t work here for my reasons given earlier. To that end, I shall make a practice piece of track to, well…..practise on. I’ve a couple of ideas in mind, but not sure if any will work or might just be too time consuming. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Rather than test your patience with all these possibly too frequent posts, I’ll leave the developments of the platform board off which I’m hoping will be pretty straightforward after this one - just jinxed it! So unforeseen disasters apart, I’ll have a brief break from posting for which I’m sure most will be grateful.
To end, and talking of practice pieces, I’m pretty happy that the colour mixes I’ve cooked up for the track and ballast more or less match the photo I’m working from, and so apart from the odd wash here or there and maybe the application of a touch of pigment, I think I’ll run with it.
Here are the results (rail went too dark but will be avoided on the real thing) and the photo for comparison:
Thanks all for your forbearance.
Cheers.
Jonte
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Evening Jonte.
Firstly, no forbearance is required certainly not on my part. It's always a pleasure to pop in and see how things are going. Therefore, nice as it is to receive thanks, rest assured, none are required.
Ballasting is a big of a dark art to me but one which I seem to muddle through. I regard it as a chore and something to get through but it takes me forever.
It seems to take ages to lay, tamp and brush the ballast into place. I have used a few types over the four layouts, the last being Woodland Scenics fine cinders on Sheep Dip as below.
I tend to use less ballast around the tiebars etc knowing that I will be glueing around moving parts.........which funnily enough, I still want to move after the glue has set.
I then glue it in place using the usual PVA/water/ Fairy mix applied with an syringe to ballast already dampened using a fine mist of plain water. I make sure the tie bar area is wet to draw in the PVA mixture.
If I had to guess at ratios and I do have to guess, it would be one part PVA to two parts water and a liberal squirt of Fairy.
By now its pretty wet and I just leave it over night........sometimes longer. It takes as long as it takes to dry.
And it sticks........hard. To date very little if any has come loose despite much moving and jiggling about to and from exhibitions.
I also use this mix to secure the ash I use in the yards as the ground surface and have also used this to drop into the track bed to secure static grass and weedy stuff.
I'm no ballasting guru but this is what works for me.
Rob.
Firstly, no forbearance is required certainly not on my part. It's always a pleasure to pop in and see how things are going. Therefore, nice as it is to receive thanks, rest assured, none are required.
Ballasting is a big of a dark art to me but one which I seem to muddle through. I regard it as a chore and something to get through but it takes me forever.
It seems to take ages to lay, tamp and brush the ballast into place. I have used a few types over the four layouts, the last being Woodland Scenics fine cinders on Sheep Dip as below.
I tend to use less ballast around the tiebars etc knowing that I will be glueing around moving parts.........which funnily enough, I still want to move after the glue has set.
I then glue it in place using the usual PVA/water/ Fairy mix applied with an syringe to ballast already dampened using a fine mist of plain water. I make sure the tie bar area is wet to draw in the PVA mixture.
If I had to guess at ratios and I do have to guess, it would be one part PVA to two parts water and a liberal squirt of Fairy.
By now its pretty wet and I just leave it over night........sometimes longer. It takes as long as it takes to dry.
And it sticks........hard. To date very little if any has come loose despite much moving and jiggling about to and from exhibitions.
I also use this mix to secure the ash I use in the yards as the ground surface and have also used this to drop into the track bed to secure static grass and weedy stuff.
I'm no ballasting guru but this is what works for me.
Rob.
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hiya Rob, and thank you for your kind words. Thank you also for taking time to write up a most helpful blow-by-blow account of how it’s done. I’m really grateful
This appears to be a most reliable method as you suggest, Rob, and robust to boot as you’ve shown - sick of the sound of loose sand getting between wheel n rails! This is indeed one method I’m considering and will probably opt for. My only concern is that the fine ballast I’m using (mainly sand) could be disturbed by the drops of liquid mix as they are dispensed, although as I’m attempting to keep it fairly thin - no more than halfway above the base of the sleeper - this may be of no serious consequence to the ‘look’
The other method, is to lay down the glue to the height required and sprinkle on (this sets like concrete!). Problem here is that it’s a divil of a job placing it between the sleepers with out getting glue on the surfaces, especially with Peco’s being so darned close together. To that end, I might employ a mixture of both methods - yours being ideal for applying between the sleepers!
The fact that some say the liquid mix stains the colour of the ballast won’t be an issue in this case, as both track and ballast will receive a good squirting of more primer once it’s laid, and will be daubed in paint after that!
Thanks again, Rob, for your interest and I’m intrigued to see how your ‘wharf’ pans out.
Best
Jonte
simond
Western Thunderer
I use latex, watered down, rather than PVA, which gives granite a green tinge. Not an issue if you’re using non-granite, or painting it.
The other thing that latex does is creep very enthusiastically by capillary action. If you pre-wet the ballast with water & washing up liquid (I find only a drop needed), then drip the watered latex in, you’ll see it scoosh through the gaps between the grains in a very satisfying manner!
Atb
Simon
The other thing that latex does is creep very enthusiastically by capillary action. If you pre-wet the ballast with water & washing up liquid (I find only a drop needed), then drip the watered latex in, you’ll see it scoosh through the gaps between the grains in a very satisfying manner!
Atb
Simon
jonte
Western Thunderer
jonte
Western Thunderer
No!
this stuff. Tenner for 1.5 kg from Screwfix
Cheers, Simon
I’ll construct a test piece and report back, but having mulled it over, I’m going to ‘stick’ with the low ballast look.
This (posted earlier) convinces me why:
I think it imparts an even chunkier look to the rail; conversely, it amplifies the under-nourished look of the sleepers.
Never mind, think we’re dealing with a sow’s ear here: it will take more than me to get a tune out of it, I fear
Will let you know.
Jonte
Pencarrow
Western Thunderer
Pre wetting the ballast also works well for the watered down PVA method. I use one of those kitchen disinfectant spray bottles (once the contents have been used of course) and fill with water and a drop of washing up liquid.
Mist over the track and ballast at a distance to avoid disturbing the ballast, wait a while for it to soak through, then apply the watered down PVA mix in drops. It quickly soaks in without the balling up that occurs when applied to dry ballast.
jonte
Western Thunderer
jonte
Western Thunderer
Hi Guys - I’m stuck AGAIN
Testing was fine over every section of track EXCEPT the very last one. Isn’t it always the way:
View attachment 147632
As the front wheel gets to the end of the crossing as shown, it stops dead. Just prior to this it halts briefly, rolls again and then stops dead at the as per the above photo.
Continuity has been found between polarity switches, feeds and rails; the rails have been cleaned and rubbed several times. Still no joy. I’m at a loss, fellow Westerners.
I’ve heard of voltage drop with DCC; could this be the case here? Worked fine before.
Hoping and trusting somebody can help as I can’t carry until resolved. Would exchange the point but it’s glued down
But why replace it if current is flowing?
oh dear.
Jonte
Edit to add that there’s no short occurring; additionally, when checked for continuity on the rail furthest from the camera (which I’ve designated negative feed), with one electrode on rail top, the other on the Earth block which is fed by the bus wire and to which the rail feed goes for that side, the ‘beep’ signal is delayed while the display increases in value on the volt meter. It does beep eventually after a couple of seconds or so, but not right away like the others. Is this relevant? Thanks. Jonte (wish these were real steam engines and we could ditch the electrickery!) Jonte
Further edit: it occurred to me to try it on DC. It stopped at the same point (should I be using a DCC chipped engine on a DC power supply ?!).
Took it back, and charged at it at almost full pelt, stalled a bit, but across it went. And back the other way!
I then returned to DCC and lo and behold, it went through on crawl. This time though, when I tried to reverse out: nothing. I took it back to the starting point and tried again. This time, it just stopped at the crossing as it did originally. Should I stick this query on the ‘Help’ section?
Jonte
Further Breaking News: decided to attach an old piece of wire directly to the Bus below decks and hold the other end against the ‘negative’ rail:
The engine went through fine, so it can’t be a dirty rail?
Wonder what to do next? Don’t want to lift the point if I can help it; it’s not the glue that’s the problem but the paper screen which will tear. I could try and solder a new wire, but not sure whether I can get soldering bit up through hole to base of rail. Why has this happened?
Jonte
Testing was fine over every section of track EXCEPT the very last one. Isn’t it always the way:
View attachment 147632
As the front wheel gets to the end of the crossing as shown, it stops dead. Just prior to this it halts briefly, rolls again and then stops dead at the as per the above photo.
Continuity has been found between polarity switches, feeds and rails; the rails have been cleaned and rubbed several times. Still no joy. I’m at a loss, fellow Westerners.
I’ve heard of voltage drop with DCC; could this be the case here? Worked fine before.
Hoping and trusting somebody can help as I can’t carry until resolved. Would exchange the point but it’s glued down
But why replace it if current is flowing?
oh dear.
Jonte
Edit to add that there’s no short occurring; additionally, when checked for continuity on the rail furthest from the camera (which I’ve designated negative feed), with one electrode on rail top, the other on the Earth block which is fed by the bus wire and to which the rail feed goes for that side, the ‘beep’ signal is delayed while the display increases in value on the volt meter. It does beep eventually after a couple of seconds or so, but not right away like the others. Is this relevant? Thanks. Jonte (wish these were real steam engines and we could ditch the electrickery!) Jonte
Further edit: it occurred to me to try it on DC. It stopped at the same point (should I be using a DCC chipped engine on a DC power supply ?!).
Took it back, and charged at it at almost full pelt, stalled a bit, but across it went. And back the other way!
I then returned to DCC and lo and behold, it went through on crawl. This time though, when I tried to reverse out: nothing. I took it back to the starting point and tried again. This time, it just stopped at the crossing as it did originally. Should I stick this query on the ‘Help’ section?
Jonte
Further Breaking News: decided to attach an old piece of wire directly to the Bus below decks and hold the other end against the ‘negative’ rail:
The engine went through fine, so it can’t be a dirty rail?
Wonder what to do next? Don’t want to lift the point if I can help it; it’s not the glue that’s the problem but the paper screen which will tear. I could try and solder a new wire, but not sure whether I can get soldering bit up through hole to base of rail. Why has this happened?
Jonte
Last edited:
Bill Campbell
Western Thunderer
Hi Jonte
From your description it sounds very much like a dry solder joint (it happens to us all!) where the feed wire is soldered to the rail. You may well be able to deal with this by cleaning around the suspect solder joint - scrape the paint away, applying a little flux (I know - not normally needed for electrical work but I think it will help here) and re-heating the joint with a little fresh solder on the end of the soldering iron bit. Make sure that the wire is not under tension - you don't want it parting company with the rail when the joint is heated - you may need to support it from underneath to maintain good contact.
Hopefully this will negate the need for another feed wire and/or lifting the track.
Regards.
From your description it sounds very much like a dry solder joint (it happens to us all!) where the feed wire is soldered to the rail. You may well be able to deal with this by cleaning around the suspect solder joint - scrape the paint away, applying a little flux (I know - not normally needed for electrical work but I think it will help here) and re-heating the joint with a little fresh solder on the end of the soldering iron bit. Make sure that the wire is not under tension - you don't want it parting company with the rail when the joint is heated - you may need to support it from underneath to maintain good contact.
Hopefully this will negate the need for another feed wire and/or lifting the track.
Regards.