Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
either would suit me Steph - I just want something that stays bellow the floor of the 121
cheers
Mike
Trade SDMP/Finney7 - Driving a Geep?
- Thread starter Steph Dale
- Start date
either would suit me Steph - I just want something that stays bellow the floor of the 121
cheers
Mike
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Self contained in a bogie would probably be of more interest to me
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Would roller bearings be an option Steph?
BTW having said self-contained, like Richard either would be fine.....good running & ease of assembly (or RTR) would be my priorities.
BTW having said self-contained, like Richard either would be fine.....good running & ease of assembly (or RTR) would be my priorities.
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Both for me
. Mainly self contained but i would like a DMU bogie with the motor below the floor
Rob
. Mainly self contained but i would like a DMU bogie with the motor below the floorRob
S
SteveO
Guest
A self-contained motor-bogies for me too please. I've got a stash of Mashima 1824 double-ended motors ready for the DMU (plural, hopefully!) and my locos (all Type 2s, except for a Warship).
On 8' 6" motor-bogies I'm not worried about compensation/springing but I may be on the longer version.
On 8' 6" motor-bogies I'm not worried about compensation/springing but I may be on the longer version.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Thanks guys!
Looks like they're equal priority so I'll try and have a play over the next week or so.
Steph
Looks like they're equal priority so I'll try and have a play over the next week or so.
Steph
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Guys,
A quick 'starter for ten' on the 8'6" DMU bogie:
Here 'tis with the motor mounted outside the bogie, which looks pretty handy.
And here it is with a Mashima 1824 mounted in the bogie, flats top and bottom:
I think the latter is marginally less useful and probably harder to assemble. Your chances of success would depend on the thickness of the floor in your model. There is also the possibility of using something like a Mashima 1624, which would definitely save enough height to make this a going concern.
I'll do a couple of plan views in a little while to see how it might all fit together.
Steph
A quick 'starter for ten' on the 8'6" DMU bogie:
Here 'tis with the motor mounted outside the bogie, which looks pretty handy.
And here it is with a Mashima 1824 mounted in the bogie, flats top and bottom:
I think the latter is marginally less useful and probably harder to assemble. Your chances of success would depend on the thickness of the floor in your model. There is also the possibility of using something like a Mashima 1624, which would definitely save enough height to make this a going concern.
I'll do a couple of plan views in a little while to see how it might all fit together.
Steph
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I'm expecting that there's no need for an internal frame, if you want compensation or even springing there are alternatives out there. Wayoh with their brass and whitemetal bogies would seem an obvious choice, but I guess anything goes - even the Easybuild plastic ones would probably be strong enough.
The way round the need for a (bulky, visible, not prototypical) inside frame is to use Slaters 7317 or 7318 'Journal converters' with a set of B7837 3'1" disc wheels. The journal converters are used instead of the provided axle-end fixing screws and allow the use of Slater's outside bearings - as you'd find in a carriage or wagon. The result will be your wheels supported prototypically in the outside frame of the bogie, with the gearbox suspended on the axle.
I suppose the most conventional way to set up the drive would be straight down the centre of the vehicle. The red lines on the drawing show the positions of the torque-reaction arms, running from the gearbox side to the opposite end beam on the bogie frame:
The only problem (although actually a small one) is that the drive shaft passes straight underneath where you might want to put a bogie fixing screw. A solution to this would be to use a popper stud.
There are some interesting things happen if the shaft doesn't go down the centre of the bogie, one arrangement is shown here, which maintains good clearance around the bogie centre:
Your thoughts, gentlemen, please!
Steph
The way round the need for a (bulky, visible, not prototypical) inside frame is to use Slaters 7317 or 7318 'Journal converters' with a set of B7837 3'1" disc wheels. The journal converters are used instead of the provided axle-end fixing screws and allow the use of Slater's outside bearings - as you'd find in a carriage or wagon. The result will be your wheels supported prototypically in the outside frame of the bogie, with the gearbox suspended on the axle.
I suppose the most conventional way to set up the drive would be straight down the centre of the vehicle. The red lines on the drawing show the positions of the torque-reaction arms, running from the gearbox side to the opposite end beam on the bogie frame:
The only problem (although actually a small one) is that the drive shaft passes straight underneath where you might want to put a bogie fixing screw. A solution to this would be to use a popper stud.
There are some interesting things happen if the shaft doesn't go down the centre of the bogie, one arrangement is shown here, which maintains good clearance around the bogie centre:
Your thoughts, gentlemen, please!
Steph
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Steph,
Sounds good to me. The floor for me could be cut out and raised by say by 5mm or so. So that could be an option.
I have never experienced the Slaters converters so i wouldn't know what to say.
Although i do like the idea of the motor being inside the bogie. I dont understand about the popper stud but realise that the shaft would go down the centre of the bogie.
Rob
Sounds good to me. The floor for me could be cut out and raised by say by 5mm or so. So that could be an option.
I have never experienced the Slaters converters so i wouldn't know what to say.
Although i do like the idea of the motor being inside the bogie. I dont understand about the popper stud but realise that the shaft would go down the centre of the bogie.
Rob
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
I shall be interested to see the plan view of the "1824" suggestion - my reading of the side view dwg. is that the motor body covers the bogie pivot point and may require a hole in the floor of the carriage. If my reading is there or there abouts then this option looks like needing a bracket, from the bogie solebars, over the top of the motor.
All neat and tidy solutions.
regards, Graham
S
SteveO
Guest
Both neat solutions, but both also come with problems to overcome.
Personally speaking, I prefer a full motor-bogie but I realise this will have two problems; the bogie pivot and raising the floor to account for the motor.
The way I see it is that this solution in a hundred times better than having a hoofing great can motor swinging about in my coach compartment, which can't be hidden by a convenient toilet window or body panel (not in my case anyway). I can certainly forgive raising the floor slightly. While the floor is being raised, it may as well be raised enough for a sensible and robust bogie pivot too. The two problems are overcome by the same solution. Win.
As Graham said, I like to see what solution you can come up with for the bogie pivot. It looks like some sort of bogie frame will have to be developed to account for this.
Personally speaking, I prefer a full motor-bogie but I realise this will have two problems; the bogie pivot and raising the floor to account for the motor.
The way I see it is that this solution in a hundred times better than having a hoofing great can motor swinging about in my coach compartment, which can't be hidden by a convenient toilet window or body panel (not in my case anyway). I can certainly forgive raising the floor slightly. While the floor is being raised, it may as well be raised enough for a sensible and robust bogie pivot too. The two problems are overcome by the same solution. Win.
As Graham said, I like to see what solution you can come up with for the bogie pivot. It looks like some sort of bogie frame will have to be developed to account for this.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I've done a little further development on the integral motor version. This shows how I'd arrange for the pivot . Making up a new bolster (or building on whatever is provided) (magenta) makes provision for both a bogie pivot and a mounting for the back of the motor. Even the torque-reaction arm (red) from the other gearbox can mount to it.
The pivot arrangements would be whatever offended your personal sensibilities least. I still think I might use a popper stud, but a nut/bolt would work. As an aside I'll mention that a plain pivot (rod/tube) would also work fine and probably take up least height, although a method of retaining the bogie might be wanted (spring wires to give working secondary suspension for the truly adventurous?!):
Steph
The pivot arrangements would be whatever offended your personal sensibilities least. I still think I might use a popper stud, but a nut/bolt would work. As an aside I'll mention that a plain pivot (rod/tube) would also work fine and probably take up least height, although a method of retaining the bogie might be wanted (spring wires to give working secondary suspension for the truly adventurous?!):
Steph
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
I may have posted some/all of these before - bogies for a Westdale 128
I cannot for the life of me remember if this is 'pure Dick Taylor' or an interpretation by me
I think that the bridge/swivel arrangement was me, as the corresponding 'packing' on the trailing bogie - last picture, is definitely me!
the hole for the bracket clearance is below the plate
I also bolted/screwed a brass plate covering most of the underfloor length so that I could solder the whitemetal gubbins to it rather than trust epoxy onto the MDF.
Needless to say that the unit is no longer with me.
When I later built the first Peter Clark MLV Class 419, he used a similar arrangement to Dick Taylor, but the motor was mounted flat on it's side. The second one I built I used a pair of ABC traction motors within a Wayoh bogie.
Hope this is of help.
cheers
Mike
I cannot for the life of me remember if this is 'pure Dick Taylor' or an interpretation by me
I think that the bridge/swivel arrangement was me, as the corresponding 'packing' on the trailing bogie - last picture, is definitely me!
the hole for the bracket clearance is below the plate
I also bolted/screwed a brass plate covering most of the underfloor length so that I could solder the whitemetal gubbins to it rather than trust epoxy onto the MDF.
Needless to say that the unit is no longer with me.
When I later built the first Peter Clark MLV Class 419, he used a similar arrangement to Dick Taylor, but the motor was mounted flat on it's side. The second one I built I used a pair of ABC traction motors within a Wayoh bogie.
Hope this is of help.
cheers
Mike
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mike,
Very useful, thanks. Looks as though they'd be relatively simple to build up with either an integrated motor or with the motor in the underframe. The use of internal bearings aren't a problem, there's good clearance for the motor, etc, etc. All looks good to me.
Which I guess raises the question of why you might choose to use my drive. Well, if I may be excused a small 'pitch', I use better gears in accurately-designed boxes, with the gears supported on ball races. So you should get quieter, smoother running over longer life with the added advantage that I'm not putting a horrible bending moment along the motor shaft or overloading the motor bearings (almost certainly the case with the example shown).
I'm intrigued as to how you fitted the ABC traction motors, I'm assuming you supported the wheels and traction motors in the outside frame, abandoning use of the inner bogie frame?
Steve,
Just wondering whether the internal frame of the bogies Mike's shown would answer your need for either DMUs or locos? The look like a nice simple solution that I'm tempted to have a look at a set for my model of 10800...
Steph
Very useful, thanks. Looks as though they'd be relatively simple to build up with either an integrated motor or with the motor in the underframe. The use of internal bearings aren't a problem, there's good clearance for the motor, etc, etc. All looks good to me.
Which I guess raises the question of why you might choose to use my drive. Well, if I may be excused a small 'pitch', I use better gears in accurately-designed boxes, with the gears supported on ball races. So you should get quieter, smoother running over longer life with the added advantage that I'm not putting a horrible bending moment along the motor shaft or overloading the motor bearings (almost certainly the case with the example shown).
I'm intrigued as to how you fitted the ABC traction motors, I'm assuming you supported the wheels and traction motors in the outside frame, abandoning use of the inner bogie frame?
Steve,
Just wondering whether the internal frame of the bogies Mike's shown would answer your need for either DMUs or locos? The look like a nice simple solution that I'm tempted to have a look at a set for my model of 10800...
Steph
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Steph,
should have included this set of pictures for the Class 419
viewed from above the central beam is a replacement in the Wayoh bogie with a brass angle anti rotation plate soldered easch side
close up showing the anti rotation brass angle
side on view
anti rotation 'keeper plate' bolted to the underside of the cross beam. Pick-up arrangement is, as can be determined above, via one wire each side and supplemented by further pick-ups on the trailing bogie.
These are 3'7" coach wheels, but I note that you first diagram above looks as if it reads 3'1" which if correct, was for B4 bogies and later types.
Again, I hope that this helps.
cheers
Mike
should have included this set of pictures for the Class 419
viewed from above the central beam is a replacement in the Wayoh bogie with a brass angle anti rotation plate soldered easch side
close up showing the anti rotation brass angle
side on view
anti rotation 'keeper plate' bolted to the underside of the cross beam. Pick-up arrangement is, as can be determined above, via one wire each side and supplemented by further pick-ups on the trailing bogie.
These are 3'7" coach wheels, but I note that you first diagram above looks as if it reads 3'1" which if correct, was for B4 bogies and later types.
Again, I hope that this helps.
cheers
Mike
S
SteveO
Guest
The ABC motor-bogies look amazing. They also look very expensive!
I'm not sure I like the look and durability of the original bogies Mike posted, they seem quite high and too clunky. I'm also unsure of the durability of the motor pressing down on the gears. I prefer the design of yours (or mine) and barring a lottery win, those ABCs are just a pipe dream...
I'm not sure I like the look and durability of the original bogies Mike posted, they seem quite high and too clunky. I'm also unsure of the durability of the motor pressing down on the gears. I prefer the design of yours (or mine) and barring a lottery win, those ABCs are just a pipe dream...
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Steve,
the 'current' (no pun intended) price for one axle is £77 + £2.50 per pick-up + £7 P&P when fitted with standard Slaters wheels, other wheels are available. Only one pick-up need be fitted if two motors are used as they pick up on opposing sides, but for insurance, the trailing bogie also needs to be fitted with pick-ups, as I stated above.
cheers
Mike
the 'current' (no pun intended) price for one axle is £77 + £2.50 per pick-up + £7 P&P when fitted with standard Slaters wheels, other wheels are available. Only one pick-up need be fitted if two motors are used as they pick up on opposing sides, but for insurance, the trailing bogie also needs to be fitted with pick-ups, as I stated above.
cheers
Mike
S
SteveO
Guest
That puts the price of your single bogie at around £170! I have a DMU, 2x Derby Type 2, NBL Type 2, Brush Type 2 and Warship to fit out, preferably with two motor-bogies each. Gulp...
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
the price of their diesel gearbox + Canon motor is £100 or with Maxon is £119 - both include delrin sockets and chain and both + £7 recorded delivery P&P, so diesel locos would be £207 or £245 driving two bogies - over to you Mr Starter.
The questions then are A) do you need two motors every time in a loco and B) would you need more than a total of two traction motors (1 per Driving coach) in you DMU. I put two in the 419 as on the 'juice' they were quite powerful.
cheers
Mike
The questions then are A) do you need two motors every time in a loco and B) would you need more than a total of two traction motors (1 per Driving coach) in you DMU. I put two in the 419 as on the 'juice' they were quite powerful.
cheers
Mike