adrian
Flying Squad
As mentioned in my post - I suspect them problem is due to fitting a Scale7 chassis to a fine scale body.
Stanier 8F in S7
- Thread starter DavidinAus
- Start date
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, I think the only part that is S7 is the transverse motor mount stretcher, the two side plates 'horns' are part of the frames and would fit either fine scale or S7 stretchers. If a fine scale stretcher were used then the frames would be closer and thus the horns closer and clear the footplate.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Adrian, I think the overall width may be fine, I guessing the extra footplate width is on the inside to meet up with narrower fine scale frames, in which case all David needs to do is trim the inside edge of the footplate to accommodate the motor mount horns
David, I don't know if you have the Wild Swan book but the works drawing in there shows overall width across the footplate as 8' 7" (60.14mm); each platform on each side is 2' 1¾ (15.03mm) wide. Frames are 1" thick and are 4' 1½" apart giving 4' 3½" (30.07mm) over the outside of the frames.
So in summary, your total footplate width should be about 60mm wide and each platform should be about 15mm wide
Hope that helps
adrian
Flying Squad
Adrian, I think the overall width may be fine, I guessing the extra footplate width is on the inside to meet up with narrower fine scale frames, in which case all David needs to do is trim the inside edge of the footplate to accommodate the motor mount horns
So in summary, your total footplate width should be about 60mm wide and each platform should be about 15mm wide
I agree that the inside edge of the footplate needs trimming, but in doing so he'll loose a lot of the rivet detail on the inside edge and there may be other holes and slots which need adjusting. Which is why I suggested a scratch built replacement, if it doesn't work out initially then he still has the original etching to work with. I think I'm going to have to open the box and have a look at my kit to see if it's feasible.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
adrian
Flying Squad
No problem - as they say I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt!!Good point. I'd forgotten that any detail may also be pushed inward as well
Having had a look at the etchings - I don't think the footplate is a problem, however the firebox maybe.
I've marked on what I think would need trimming, and you do loose some of the rivet detail but nothing that couldn't be replaced. As a guide the very front portion of the footplate is the correct width to fit around the dummy front frames, from the smoke box saddle back they are too wide to meet the finescale frames. The etchings also have a half etch rebate underneath to give a positive location for the side edge pieces.
As mentioned the firebox I think is the problem, as it is a casting the side walls are quite thick, so externally correct it does mean that it's too narrow internally.
So either the motor mount will need trimming or an alternative motor mount will be required.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Yup, definitely going to need to trim the motor mount side plates. no way they are going to go inside that firebox
Your right about the footplate etch work, it has been widened to suit fine scale stretchers and the rebate underneath is I presume for it to sit on top of the frames with fine scale stretchers. It also looks like the two rows of twin where the footplate supports are have had their spacing stretched to compensate for the extra width as well; between the where the smoke box saddle will be and the firebox sits.
It's a shame the sheet has raised half etched rivets on it, rather than half etch holes which are punched from the rear, the latter would have been easier to re-rivet once the foot plate had been trimmed.
Your right about the footplate etch work, it has been widened to suit fine scale stretchers and the rebate underneath is I presume for it to sit on top of the frames with fine scale stretchers. It also looks like the two rows of twin where the footplate supports are have had their spacing stretched to compensate for the extra width as well; between the where the smoke box saddle will be and the firebox sits.
It's a shame the sheet has raised half etched rivets on it, rather than half etch holes which are punched from the rear, the latter would have been easier to re-rivet once the foot plate had been trimmed.
DavidinAus
Western Thunderer
I have already heard back from Dave Sharp.
This is an unexpected issue. He suggests trimming the uprights off the frames themselves and filing the motor mount back in order to fit inside the whitemetal firebox.
Two problems, though, remain: re-inforcing the motor mount (easy, I will follow the advice given above, thank you) and changing the width of the footplate. The latter is much more difficult. I have a rivet press, of the simple Metalsmith type. If I file back the inside edge of the footplate, presumably careful use of the rivet press on the half-etched sheet nickel silver will allow me to recreate the row of riivets, will it?
I don't have a sheet of thin nickel-silver to scratch-build a replacement, anyway.
David
This is an unexpected issue. He suggests trimming the uprights off the frames themselves and filing the motor mount back in order to fit inside the whitemetal firebox.
Two problems, though, remain: re-inforcing the motor mount (easy, I will follow the advice given above, thank you) and changing the width of the footplate. The latter is much more difficult. I have a rivet press, of the simple Metalsmith type. If I file back the inside edge of the footplate, presumably careful use of the rivet press on the half-etched sheet nickel silver will allow me to recreate the row of riivets, will it?
I don't have a sheet of thin nickel-silver to scratch-build a replacement, anyway.
David
DavidinAus
Western Thunderer
More ....
I don't have the Wild Swan books - yet. They are waiting for me at my brother's house in Manchester for when I visit England in August!
So thank you for the dimensions, above. As it happens I do have an official engineering drawing obtained from the NRM, though.
The footplate is exactly the correct external dimension, but the footplate width on each side is 16.7-16.8 mm. Taking this back to 15mm will remove the line of rivets, as Adrian says above. I am optimistic that my skills are up to re-creating these, however. Probably line them up before I file back the inside of the footplate edges. The NS sheet, even over the etched areas, is still 0.5mm thick.
This will affect the small slots used to locate some other parts. I don't know as yet what parts are affected, but I will just have to find that out as I go along, I fear.
Incidentally, if anyone wants the "pipes drawing", as my drawing is called, I also have a high-resolution <.tiff> file of it which I could share on request. The orginal is about 2m across!
David
I don't have the Wild Swan books - yet. They are waiting for me at my brother's house in Manchester for when I visit England in August!
So thank you for the dimensions, above. As it happens I do have an official engineering drawing obtained from the NRM, though.
The footplate is exactly the correct external dimension, but the footplate width on each side is 16.7-16.8 mm. Taking this back to 15mm will remove the line of rivets, as Adrian says above. I am optimistic that my skills are up to re-creating these, however. Probably line them up before I file back the inside of the footplate edges. The NS sheet, even over the etched areas, is still 0.5mm thick.
This will affect the small slots used to locate some other parts. I don't know as yet what parts are affected, but I will just have to find that out as I go along, I fear.
Incidentally, if anyone wants the "pipes drawing", as my drawing is called, I also have a high-resolution <.tiff> file of it which I could share on request. The orginal is about 2m across!
David
adrian
Flying Squad
If you are referring to the small slots in the middle between the firebox and smokebox with the raised strip in front of them then these I suspect are for locating the angled flat plates that hold the sandbox filler caps. So I don't think it'll be a problem, if anything the rivets behind them won't really be visible so that's a few less to worry about.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Is it C32522? either way I'd appreciate a look at it, can never get enough drawings, especially LMR LOL.
I think if you just reduce the width of the motor mount to less than 26 mm as seen in Adrians shot of the firebox, then everything should all drop into place, there should be no need to touch the footplate at all as far as I can see. The frame tops appear flat and designed so that the footplate will rest on top, it looks like it has separate parts for those frame areas that stick up above the foot plate at the smoke box and firebox ends; these being stuck (soldered) on top of the footplate.
I've only ever found one decent shot of 8F frames
Copyright British Rail from Bradford & Barton
It shows locos under construction at Swindon works in A shop, you can see the raised sections of the frames quite clearly, also of note are the two frame halves at bottom left having their axle boxes lined up and fitting and even more interesting (noted in the B&B book) are what appears to be two gun barrels at top right; from the size of them they look large calibre so could possibly be barrels for a rail mounted gun or Royal Navy vessel, I'd hedge my bets on a rail or turret mount for the Dover / Folkestone batteries. The picture is not dated but Swindon built 8Fs between 1943 and 1945 so it's a safe bet this is a wartime photo.
Sorry for the digression, artillery, especially large calibre (British or Atlantic Wall) and naval warships are another anorak of mine
ZiderHead
Western Thunderer
DavidinAus
Western Thunderer
I have that picture, by chance. In the Bradford and Barton "Stanier 8F 2-8-0" book. I hadn't noticed the guns, though ....
I'm encouraged by the help and advice. It looks achieveable, even by me: use the rivet press, file a little off the footplate inside edges, solder strengthening strips on the motor mount, cut off the uprights on the frames and trim the motor mount.
Perhaps I can do all this while waiting for the wheels to be made!
David
I'm encouraged by the help and advice. It looks achieveable, even by me: use the rivet press, file a little off the footplate inside edges, solder strengthening strips on the motor mount, cut off the uprights on the frames and trim the motor mount.
Perhaps I can do all this while waiting for the wheels to be made!
David
For info re the S7 8F wheels. Those of you who were at the S7 AGM will have seen the moulding of the centre section of the wheel and it was agreed that it was suitable for production. David White was then asked to go ahead with the wheels and the S7 Stores are expecting them in the next few weeks, depending on Slater's Production schedules.
At the committee meeting on Sunday it was confirmed that we are just waiting for the wheels and would hope they are available by Telford (not guaranteed).
Hope this helps.
Rob
At the committee meeting on Sunday it was confirmed that we are just waiting for the wheels and would hope they are available by Telford (not guaranteed).
Hope this helps.
Rob
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
adrian
Flying Squad
I've not actually looked at what's recommended - the motor mount may well be for a ABC style box - it is on the 4MT kit. On the 4MT kit the mount forms a cradle which allows the motor to rock from side to side for the compensation system but prevents any fore-aft rocking. I'll have to check the instructions tonight but I suspect that the motor mount isn't crucial and an alternative arrangement should be easily accomodated.
Steve Cook
Flying Squad
A very interesting thread David, thanks for writing it up 
Sorry to see you having problems, but its good to see the advice coming from the experienced builders.
Steve
Sorry to see you having problems, but its good to see the advice coming from the experienced builders.
I would think so, albeit the new ones will be domed whereas I suspect that the current ones are sharp edged as a result of being etched. The only suggestion I have (if you don't mind) is to form the new rivets before removing the unwanted edge of the footplate - the extra material will help to minimise any distortion as you form each rivet.
Steve
DavidinAus
Western Thunderer
It's made for an RG7, so I'm buying an ABC Mini-7 with an Escap motor fitted.
David
David
adrian
Flying Squad
Thanks for the tip - I'll have to remember it when I get round to mine. I had thought the same about the new rivets being domed so I was half considering dressing them with a file to flatten them off, the only problem being if I go too far and I'd end up with little pin prick holes. So my final solution would be to form the required rivets and then fill in the back of the formed rivet with solder which would then allow me to flatten off the new rivets to match the rest of the etched rivets!!
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Just a thought chaps.
Frankly I'd be very cautious about using a rivet press - at least one which has no guides or adjustable table.
And I guess you'll know what I'm going to suggest - try Archer transfers. They have the correct profile, are available in a great variety of sizes and can be spaced prototypically if the spacing as they are on the sheet is not correct. That will take a bit of time, but any errors are easily corrected which won't be true of embossed rivets.
Of course, I may have missed some aspect which makes the use of Archer transfers impractical but I've been very pleased with the results on the two occasions I've used them so far.
Brian
Frankly I'd be very cautious about using a rivet press - at least one which has no guides or adjustable table.
And I guess you'll know what I'm going to suggest - try Archer transfers. They have the correct profile, are available in a great variety of sizes and can be spaced prototypically if the spacing as they are on the sheet is not correct. That will take a bit of time, but any errors are easily corrected which won't be true of embossed rivets.
Of course, I may have missed some aspect which makes the use of Archer transfers impractical but I've been very pleased with the results on the two occasions I've used them so far.
Brian