Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[LarryG]

A3 60062 stands beside one of the ex.WW2 Ambulance coaches that were not converted back to passenger use but were made into parcels coaches. They were a familiar sight all over the BR system except perhaps the S.Region. I remember them best in unlined post 1956 maroon on the Cambrian coast line and on the Holyhead mainline.

 

[oldravendale]

I assume it is in the KX suburban platform.

That's a good question, Dave. I don't have the definitive answer but I'll bet someone on here does!

 

[Martin Shaw]

Somewhat surprisingly I can't find a similarly located picture to confirm Dave's assunption, but he's right. The A3 though is perhaps a surprise even allowing for the date. The loco has arrived at the head of a rake of BR Mk1 suburban stock, the bodyside curvature and plethora of door hinges rather give it away, the fireman has changed the Class 2 headcode to a tail lamp for the next move. I expect a Brush type 2 at the other end and I think the pride of the East Coast has been demoted to local workings. It might be an interesting surmise to consider where it's arriving from, I don't think Mk1's went further north than Hitchin, surely not Hatfield, I wonder. I think that whilst the engine was nominally allocated to New England for accountancy purposes, it probably still had a sleep at Top Shed for a few weeks yet.
Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

That's a good question, Dave. I don't have the definitive answer but I'll bet someone on here does!

Kings Cross Platform 11 is indeed on the Suburban side.

 

[mickoo]

Somewhat surprisingly I can't find a similarly located picture to confirm Dave's assunption, but he's right. The A3 though is perhaps a surprise even allowing for the date. The loco has arrived at the head of a rake of BR Mk1 suburban stock, the bodyside curvature and plethora of door hinges rather give it away, the fireman has changed the Class B headcode to a tail lamp for the next move. I expect a Brush type 2 at the other end and I think the pride of the East Coast has been demoted to local workings. It might be an interesting surmise to consider where it's arriving from, I don't think Mk1's went further north than Hitchin, surely not Hatfield, I wonder. I think that whilst the engine was nominally allocated to New England for accountancy purposes, it probably still had a sleep at Top Shed for a few weeks yet.
Regards
Martin

I think ECS was stored at Finsbury Park but that may have only been main line stock, suburban might have come from Hornsey but I've a niggle those yards were all freight?

Just found this, it's probably Finsbury Park, whole raft of suburban stock lined up. Copyright unknown. There were probably other places doted up and down the ECML. These are not the main carriage sidings, those are behind the photographer and to the north of the station.

 

[daifly]

BRDatabase is back online!
Dave

 

[Eastsidepilot]

.... it's probably Finsbury Park,......

View attachment 181351

Yep, there's a clue on the signal box .....duck's under workbench !

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the comment and confirmation about the Kings X suburban platform, Dave, Martin and Mick. I don't remember the A3s or any other Pacific come to that on empty stock at the Cross but that may have been just because I was really unobservant. The presence of Deltics in the background of various photos here rather gives the lie to the true situation though. Info added to the file.

Larry - a fascinating and completely unexpected lot of info there about the vehicle next to the A3. That's also now in the file and thank you.

Mick - that photo of the ECS sidings at Finsbury Park is a bit of an historic gem. The predominance of diesels suggests it may be a year or two after the photo of the A3 but it's certainly not a view I've seen previously.

Thanks for your advice about BR Database, Dave. Apparently it went down because the owner was away and not aware that payment of fees was upcoming. I've sent him my thanks for reopening communications.

Having written this about two hours ago it was my intention to put up the next set of photos but I then discovered I'd not done my research on those or a number thereafter so I'm now putting that right. (Apart from which I'm the wrong - or right - side of a couple of double scotches so will progressively make less sense of stuff as the minutes pass. But everything is getting really lovely...)

I will return!

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Thanks for the comment and confirmation about the Kings X suburban platform, Dave, Martin and Mick. I don't remember the A3s or any other Pacific come to that on empty stock at the Cross but that may have been just because I was really unobservant. The presence of Deltics in the background of various photos here rather gives the lie to the true situation though. Info added to the file.

Larry - a fascinating and completely unexpected lot of info there about the vehicle next to the A3. That's also now in the file and thank you.

Mick - that photo of the ECS sidings at Finsbury Park is a bit of an historic gem. The predominance of diesels suggests it may be a year or two after the photo of the A3 but it's certainly not a view I've seen previously.

Thanks for your advice about BR Database, Dave. Apparently it went down because the owner was away and not aware that payment of fees was upcoming. I've sent him my thanks for reopening communications.

Having written this about two hours ago it was my intention to put up the next set of photos but I then discovered I'd not done my research on those or a number thereafter so I'm now putting that right. (Apart from which I'm the wrong - or right - side of a couple of double scotches so will progressively make less sense of stuff as the minutes pass. But everything is getting really lovely...)

I will return!

Brian

Brian,

The Finsbury Park shot is Aug 62, I think suburban trains went over to diesel earlier than main line operations.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the info, Mick. If the diesels were on the empty stock workings, then why would the A3s be doing the same thing, I wonder. Or are they actually working the locals?

B

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks for the info, Mick. If the diesels were on the empty stock workings, then why would the A3s be doing the same thing, I wonder. Or are they actually working the locals?

Could be on a 'filling in' turn.

 

[mickoo]

Thanks for the info, Mick. If the diesels were on the empty stock workings, then why would the A3s be doing the same thing, I wonder. Or are they actually working the locals?

B

Those are locals lined up for next services, that view is looking south so I expect these possibly going out of town or have dragged empties out of kings cross.

I have a picture of an A3 in the same platform with the same stock on what looks like a special but waiting to leave, the engine isnt identified but I think its 1962. The odds of that not being the same train I'd suggest are slim. I reckon it was a kings cross out and back suburban special. I'll see if I can dig it out and check it isnt copyright protected before I post it.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your additional comments, Mick and Dave. Food for a bit of thought there!

A bit more variation here.

46401 was in post #1980 and was almost certainly taken at the same time. Mickey Mouse 2-6-0 46401 at Willesden Shed Yard in May 1963. Later the same month it moved to Buxton and was withdrawn from there in May 1966. (SLS). It went to Birds at Long Marston where it was scrapped by the end of September. (WHTS).



This is A3 60107 Royal Lancer at Kings Cross in May 1963. It was at Kings Cross Shed from October 1960, thence to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of September the same year. It was disposed of at Doncaster Works the following month. That's just four months to withdrawal and the loco looks in super condition in these photos.







West Country 34006 Bude on the RCTS/LCGB North Midlands Railtour at Kentish Town on 11th May 1963. It was a tour shared with B1 61004 Oryx and 8F 48519. 34006 took the tour from St Pancras to Derby Midland and then the return from Burton on Trent back to St Pancras. (Six Bells Junction). 34006 itself was a Nine Elms loco at the time of the photo moving to Salisbury in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in September or October 1967 at Cashmore's Newport. (BR Database/RailUK)





Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This is A3 60107 Royal Lancer at Kings Cross in May 1963. It was at Kings Cross Shed from October 1960, thence to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of September the same year. It was disposed of at Doncaster Works the following month. That's just four months to withdrawal and the loco looks in super condition in these photos.

Interesting sequence of the three photos showing the departure of the Glasgow train from the adjacent platform with very clean Mk 1 coaches. Together with the drifting steam accentuated by the slow shutter speed thereby adding atmosphere.

The Glasgow train can narrow down the approx time the photo was taken. After checking the 1963 timetable I can only find one direct train from KX to Glasgow shown in bold typeface.

This being the 12.00 noon Sundays only departure - assuming it's not an ECS from an earlier arrival, however for this the roof boards would be reversed i.e. Glasgow - Kings Cross. Also note the relatively deserted platforms.

The remainder of the KX non-Pullman daytime departures (below) show the Glasgow arrival time in a light typeface implying it was an onward connecting service.

Mon-Fri
8.00 am The Talisman
10.00 am The Flying Scotsman
11.00 am un-named train
2.00 pm The Heart of Midlothian
4.00 pm The Talisman

Sat
10.00 am The Flying Scotsman
10.10 am un-named train
11.00 am un-named train
2.00 pm The Heart of Midlothian

SUN - all un-named trains
10.00 am
11.00 am
12.00 noon - my money would be on this one as described above.
2.00 pm

 

[Roger Pound]

I well remember 60107 when it was stationed on the GC at Leicester Central (38C) in the fifties. Often seen on major express services like the other A3's then allocated to sheds on the former GC lines. Also seen on numerous occasions resting 'on shed' at weekends.
The sight of 'Bude' also brought back to me the very brief sight of a 'West Country' which I believe was 'Bude' heading north in to Leicester on the MML at the time of the 1948 exchanges. I was at the time cycling along a road where the line was close by. I was not able to note the locomotive's number, so this may have been another member of the class, although the name appeared to be 'Bude'. Although at this point, the train was only about three miles from Leicester Midland station, it was still going quite well! This loco was involved in the 1948 exchanges if memory serves. As usual, I am open to correction - without written back-up, the memory does fade as the years pass........

Thanks, once more.

Roger

 

[Martin Shaw]

There is I feel a marked connection between the pictures of "Minoru", IMGs 1695/6/7 and "Royal Lancer" IMGs 1701/2/3. and that is that both show a class 2 train hauled by a pacific locomotive which is relatively unusual, and the rolling stock being pulled. I've commented on the first but looking at the train behind 60107 it seems to be 6 vehicles, assuming a loco at the far end, which all appear to be Mk1 suburban stock. The nearest is a short underframe Second Lav Open of which there were only 27 and at either the GN or the LT&S, next looks like a Brake Second and then what could well be a Compo Lav, the pattern of footboards rather dictates that it isn't a BS or S or SO. The last three vehicles are not identifiable but two lav vehicle marshalled like that suggests a scratch set, all stations to Welwyn maybe. It could well be a Sunday as Dave thinks, and the fact that it was still at Top Shed is perhaps a pointer to it's external condition, in contrast to Minoru from New England. Interesting stuff.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

That's really useful stuff, Dave and some lovely memories, Roger. All worth preserving.

Martin - you've done some work on those photos of 60107 for sure and I tend to agree with you about the external condition of Royal Lancer vs Minoru.

A1 60120 Kittiwake at Holloway Road in May 1963. It belonged to Leeds, Copley Hill, at the time but was soon to move to York North in September from where it was withdrawn in January the following year. (SLS) It went to Darlington for cutting up which was completed in the same month. (BR Database). According to Rail UK it was withdrawn after an accident at Otterington in the January.



Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren at Kings Cross in June 1963. Judging by the stock and the fact that the loco is carrying a reporting number on the top lamp iron I believe this is the same train as shown in post #1980. However, this is recorded as May 1963 so we'll have to be satisfied with May or June. The loco lived at Immingham at the time of the photo but by the year end went to Carlisle Upperby ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database).



A2 60520 Owen Tudor at Finsbury Park in Jun 1963. This loco was seen previously in post #1973. It was a New England engine at this time and was withdrawn in the same month as the photo. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the end of August.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren at Kings Cross in June 1963. Judging by the stock and the fact that the loco is carrying a reporting number on the top lamp iron I believe this is the same train as shown in post #1980. However, this is recorded as May 1963 so we'll have to be satisfied with May or June. The loco lived at Immingham at the time of the photo but by the year end went to Carlisle Upperby ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database). 1Z22 1980

This photo was taken from the York Road (widened lines) platform.

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - you make a very good point and perhaps I've again made an assumption. As the latest photo of 70039 was taken from the York Road platform Tim would have had to sprint along the side of Kings Cross Station and on to the main concourse to photograph the loco at the buffer stops. It's possible indeed, but how likely? Well, knowing Tim as I did it wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what he did! However it's rather more likely that the photos were taken on two different days as the data attached to each photo suggests.

As far as I remember it was not unusual for the same loco to be used on the same service with the same stock over a significant period of time. In the case of these photos they were taken on adjacent months so there's no reason why one shouldn't have been on 31st May and the others on 1st June. We don't have a definitive answer but I'll admit that's entirely possible.

Two photos of A1 60133 Pommern at Finsbury Park in June 1963. This was a Leeds, Copley Hill, engine at the time, moving to Ardsley in September 1964 from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). Disposal was to Clayton & Davie at Dunston on Tyne where it was despatched by the end of August. (Rail UK).





Class A2/3 60500 Edward Thompson at Potters Bar in February 1963. We last saw this loco on img1683, 1684 and 1685 in post #1973 at Kings Cross in May the same year. It was withdrawn from New England in June the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September.



A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee at Potters Bar in February 1963. We've seen this loco previously as img1319 in post #1566 also at Potters Bar in July 1960, then img1474 in post #1761 at Kings Cross in March 1962 and then img1665 in post #1761 at Holloway Road in March 1963. It was at New England at the time of this photo going to Grantham in April. It was withdrawn from Grantham in June 1963. Trough deflectors were fitted in October 1961. It was seen at Doncaster in August 1963. (SLS) It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in August 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[mickoo]

The A3 is highly likely to be on the 'Scotch' goods which frequently had Pacific's on the front. There were several class C goods from the Cross but the 'Scotch' featured Pacifics for haulage the most.

I like the first picture at Finsbury Park the best, a very good 'railway' photo. #3 box (#4 is just to the left) was to the north of the station so the 60133 is on an up express for what it's worth.

Regarding 60500, if you look in the distance you can see another train approaching, I'd wager heavily it's 60046 with the white plume and going well to boot.