Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[PMP]

As if by magic in Blue Peter styley, here’s one I prepared earlier! It’s been really difficult to find good images of it, so my conversion was largely guesswork. The prototype image above looks like the tool box was replaced by something I presume was part of the oil feed. So I can add a bit more to it, fascinated to see if a quality near side view turns up. I see I need to move the red disc restriction logo too!

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Simon and Dave, for "more and better particulars" - well, nor necessarily better, but I'm sure you catch my drift. And that's a lovely model of a (probably) rarely if ever modelled prototype. As it was on shed at Old Oak with the oil fitted accoutrements I guess they must have had a suitable oil supply there. Although I saw the loco I never noted the differences between it and the standard 57XXs (of which there were many!)

Here's some proof of the bitterly cold weather of 1963.

Somewhat out of character Tim recorded details of all the locos in this string. They are Princess Coronation 46237 City of Bristol, Jubilee 45567 South Australia and Black 5 44875 at Willesden in February 1963. The Coronation was previously in post #905. 46237 had been a Carlisle Upperby engine since April 1962 and the 12B shed plate confirms the allocation. It was withdrawn from Carlisle in September 1964, went to Arnott Young at Troon and had ceased to exist by the end of the year.

45567 was a Crewe North engine, moving to Llandudno Junction in October 1964 then back to Crewe North at the end of January 1965 when it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in May 1965. (BR Database).

The Black 5 had been a Bescot engine since April 1960, thence to Stourbridge Junction in June 1966, Llandudno Junction the following June and finally Chester in October 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It then went to Cohen's, Morriston, where it was scrapped in September. (BR Database).



The named Black 5s were rare visitors to Willesden but here is 45154 Lanarkshire Yeomanry at Willesden in February 1963. It belonged to Newton Heath at the time and moved around too many sheds to list here before ending up at Speke Junction in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in November 1966. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull for disposal which was completed by the end of May 1967. (Rail UK).





Castle 4082 Windsor Castle at Old Oak in February 1963. I'm finding the BR Database record a bit difficult to understand as it shows a name and number change for 4082 to 7013 Bristol Castle in 1952. Help to clarify will be welcome! 4082 can be seen to be carrying an "81" shed plate although the figure under the number can't be read. This would fit with the BR Database info which says that the loco was shedded at and stored at Old Oak Common in 1963 where it was reinstated in April 1964, going to Tyseley in June and withdrawn in September. The SLS records show it to have been a Worcester (85A) engine in 1963 which doesn't agree with the shed plate in the photo, then Cardiff East Dock in Mrch 1964, Old Oak in April 1064 and finally Tyseley in July 1964 where it was withdrawn in February 1965. I've no idea whether either of these is correct! BR Database and Rail UK record it as scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in January 1965 so the withdrawal date of February 1965 proposed by the SLS must be incorrect.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

The Black 5 had been a Bescot engine since April 1960, thence to Stourbridge Junction in June 1966, Llandudno Junction the following June and finally Chester in October 1966 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It then went to Cohen's, Morriston, where it was scrapped in September. (BR Database).

STB in June '66 and Llandudno the following June... to Llandudno in June '66 or June '67, neither seem correct in the context of a timeline given the use of "following" and Chester in Octoner '66. Moving from STB in July '66 makes more sense from a temporal point of view.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I think the Castle name change was for the funeral train of King George VI, presumably from Paddington to Windsor. Windsor Castle was either under repair or in poor condition and Bristol Castle was renamed for the occasion. This is from memory so could be incorrect.
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

I believe that on a visit to Swindon around the time of his coronation, the King drove 4082. Hence it was chosen to be the funeral train engine but it was not in a suitable state of repair so a newer Castle class engine was permanantly renamed.

 

[Martin Shaw]

44875
New to Crewe North 14/4/45, Longsight (on loan) 5/6/48, Crewe North 19/6/48, Bletchley 28/5/49, Willesden 10/6/50, Bescot 7/5/60,
Stored serviceable 24/1/66 - 28/5/66, Stourbridge Junc 26/3/66, Llandudno Junc 28/5/66, Chester 8/10/66, Wdn w/e 20/5/67, Cut Up G.Cohen, Beaufort Works, Morriston.

Info from Irwell Book of and RCTS who agree.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Should have checked my notes before going in to print... 44875 should have read April 66 to Stourbridge Junction and Llandudno Junction the following June which makes rather more sense. However, still not as concise as Martin's evidence so thanks to both for querying and checking.

Thanks Martin and Arun for the info re Windsor Castle. The nameplate is clearly Windsor Castle so was the 4082 Tim photographed actually one of the later series, ie 7013? My detailed knowledge of Castles is insufficient to tell t'other from which. In which case what was the history of the original 4082 which became 7013 and 7013 which became 4082?

Brian

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
the GW had a long history of swapping names with royal connections from loco to loco. I've a vague memory that the same happend for the funerals of Victoria and George V. When this happened the locos kept the numbers but swapped names. A large number of the parts for each loco had the loco number stamped on them to ensure they went back to the correct loco. The loco number is associated with the frames and the boilers were standardised so that when a loco started a heavy the boiler went off and the next rebuilt boiler out of the shops went onto the frames. Number changes only happened with the 4-4-0s but I doubt any of Tim's photos will require us to lift that stone.
Simon
PS 4082 is 4082, 7013 is 7013

 

[Dog Star]

Number changes only happened with the 4-4-0s

Not forgetting the number changes of the Collett 0-4-2Ts.... and those engines which were temporary oil burners just after WW2.

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

I recall being a little surprised at the time when I saw 45154 'on shed' at Leicester (15C) many years ago when I was still an interested 'spotter' . This was no doubt in it's early Newton Heath days as locos from that depot were regularly seen on the 'Midland' as I recall.
Thank you once more for a happy reminder of days long gone.

Roger.

 

[SimonT]

Not forgetting the number changes of the Collett 0-4-2Ts.... and those engines which were temporary oil burners just after WW2.

True. But then "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

 

[Dog Star]

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Given Ivan Margary something to do.

 

[michael mott]

Brian I do so enjoy seeing going through this thread, having moved to Canada 56 years ago after living close to the GWR main line in Acton and spending many hours at Old Oak and Willesden as a young boy, the smell of the sheds with the mixture of steam coal and oil is one that is burned into my memory.
Thanks Michael

 

[Osgood]

Dave,
I've never heard of ALFLOC before. Can you expand?
Simon

According to Martyn Bane's website, Alfloc was the name given to an internal boiler water treatment regime developed by BR and ICI.

So essentially it was a variation of the floculation process - which causes particles to form a solid floating mass that can be removed from boiler feed water before it builds up as sludge which is undesirable.

With little knowledge of the complex subject of boiler feedwater treatment I'm going to assume the water was treated prior to being fed into boilers.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, all, for the discussion about number changes.

Roger and Michael - I much appreciate your recollections. I myself was a regular at Old Oak and Willesden from about 1959 until they closed. I then transferred my affections to Southall.

Tony- thanks to you for another nugget about ALFLOC.

94XX 0-6-0PT 9419 at Old Oak Carriage Sheds in February 1963. It was an Old Oak Common engine from new in 1950 and was withdrawn from there in March 1963. (BR Database). It was unusually scrapped by Mumford Ltd at Plaistow Shed by the end of November. (Rail UK and WHTS).





A general view of the shed yard at Willesden in February 1963.



Tim records this as Royal Scot 46159 The Royal Air Force in store at Willesden in February 1963. That seems likely as the loco was allocated to Willesden and withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). WHTS record it as in store at Willesden between October 1962 and 17th February 1963 when it was observed there. It was disposed of at Crewe Works in the middle of March the same year.



Brian

 

[simond]

I recall (short trousers in those days) that it was cold, but that last photo makes me shiver even now...

 

[Roger Pound]

I have an Airfix 00 'Royal Scot' model renumbered 46159 and renamed accordingly which I purchased (on impulse and it was cheap!!) to remind me of my time in the service. Like the photographs of the prototype it is now stored u/s. Anyone who has come across the over-engineered intricacy of the Airfix tender drive will understand why it is not high on my list of 'to do' things. I doubt it will be cut up though !

Roger

 

[Len Cattley]

Those thread's look cold, unlike today's temperature (40°) in southern spain.

Len

 

[oldravendale]

It was bloomin' cold, Simon and Len. My dear departed dad came out with me to help with my paper round.

Regrettably I never received the Royal Scot which was a Kitmaster kit which is as I remember it.

Stanier 2-6-0 42981 on freight - possibly loco coal - wagons at Willesden in February 1963. And look at that wonderful wagon. I personally simply fail to remember any wagons like this. They must have been so ordinary that they left no impression. Anyway, 42981 was a Nuneaton engine in 1963 moving to Crewe South in July. It then moved around a bit until it ended in Heaton Mersey where it was withdrawn in May 1966. (SLS). It went to Cohen's, Ickle, where it was scrapped in August 1966. (BR Database).







Jubilee 45595 Southern Rhodesia at Willesden Loco in February 1963. It was a Crewe North engine, confirmed by its 5A shed plate, moving to Llandudno Junction in early October 1964 where it was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in May the same year. (BR Database).



15XX 0-6-0PT 1500 in Old Oak Shed Yard in February 1963. This was last seen in post #1245. It went new to Old Oak in 1949 and stuck there. Withdrawal came in November 1963 (SLS) and it went to TW Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

2884 Class 2-8-0 3853 and County 1028 County of Warwick at Old Oak Common Shed Yard in February 1963. 3853 was a long way from home as it's shown as an Aberdare loco from September 1962, moving to Severn Tunnel Junction in September 1963 and withdrawn from there at the end of December the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of 1964 at Bird's, Risca, Newport. (Rail UK).

The County was a St Philips Marsh engine from September 1960 and moved to Swindon in early November 1963 but was withdrawn by the end of the month. (SLS). This also went to Bird's in Newport and was scrapped by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).



3853 again with 15XX 1500 in Old Oak Shed Yard, February 1963. For details of 1500 see post #2359 above.



...and County 1028 again, with 3853 behind. It's still carrying a Bristol Bath Road 82A shed plate despite that shed having closed in 1960. It was clearly actually snowing when Tim took this photo.



Another County, 1011 County of Chester (surely County of Cheshire or City of Chester?) in a snow shower at Old Oak Shed Yard in February 1963. This has previously been seen in post #1181. At the time of the photo it was a St Phillips Marsh engine which the shed plate 82B confirms. In November 1963 it moved to Swindon from where it was withdrawn in early November 1964. It was scrapped in March 1965 at Cashmores, Newport. This was the last surviving County at the time of its demise.



Grange 6800 Arlington Grange inside Old Oak Common Roundhouse in February 1963. See post #2324 in the preceding page for details.



Brian