Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Arun Sharma]

33022 has some interesting chalk marks on the centre sandbox - was it having the extension/protective plates added to the sandbox on that visit? I don't know in which year the Q1s startec getting those plates fitted - surely not as late as 1961?

 

[AJC]

33022 has some interesting chalk marks on the centre sandbox - was it having the extension/protective plates added to the sandbox on that visit? I don't know in which year the Q1s startec getting those plates fitted - surely not as late as 1961?

We can scotch that fairly easily. Here it is in 1960:

https://flic.kr/p/2mti4Yg

Adam

 

[AndyB]

The first traction engine in the line up (middle pic) is Ruston Hornsby General Purpose Engine 113043, "Oliver" - details on Steam Scenes.
Edited to add more:
In the 1980's it was owned by the artist, Geoffrey Wheeler, who owned the windmill at Bardwell in Suffolk - history here - but this photo would have been whilst in the care of its previous owner Bob Pumfrey and probably places the steam rally somewhere in East Anglia.

 

[Overseer]

I've remembered the name of the machinery supplier in Old Street - it was Parry's. The well-known tool firm, Tyzack's, also had premises there.

Did they merge to become Parry Tyzack? I used to buy lathe tool blanks etc in Old Street (1990s) but can’t quite remember the name of the shop. There was another Tyzack, maybe H. Tyzack, a few doors east but they sold more general tools.

 

[Osgood]

The first traction engine in the line up (middle pic) is Ruston Hornsby General Purpose Engine 113043, "Oliver" - details on Steam Scenes.
Edited to add more:
In the 1980's it was owned by the artist, Geoffrey Wheeler, who owned the windmill at Bardwell in Suffolk - history here - but this photo would have been whilst in the care of its previous owner Bob Pumfrey and probably places the steam rally somewhere in East Anglia.

A couple of views of Oliver powering a friend's threshing drum in 2022.
He has a distinctive sound as the whistle formerly adorned an LNER A3 or A4 locomotive!

 

[simond]

I thought that a Guinness label was the de rigeur tax disc!

 

[Martin Shaw]

33022 was nearing the end of a major overhaul 11/5/61 - 10/6/61, which included,
1153 Monel stays and 1019 stay nuts renewed, 350 stay holes bushed, 3 new fusible plugs, 2 firebox half sides, barrel and dome crack tested, 209 small tubes from "Tube Products" replaced, electrically weklded firehole and foundation ring all new rivets, spark arrester gear, AWS part fitted, OHLE notices fitted.
All pretty major stuff and it's interesting to note that as an Ashford built engine all the works attention pre war was at Eastleigh but after at Ashford. I don't have time to check all 40 locos but presumably a change in responsible works, or was it just capacity as there's nothing of note beyond normal boiler work.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

On the Q1s:

C1-16 (33001- 33016), C37-40 (33037-33040) were built at Brighton.
C17-36 (33017-33036) were built at Ashford.

 

[oldravendale]

Tony - thank you for reminding us how incredibly ugly (but "characterful") the Q1s were. By reputation they were good at their job, though.

Thanks for yours, Mick, re Banner Street. Added to the collected info and thanks.

Thanks for the question about the sand box, Arun... and thanks for the answer, Tony.

Andy, Tony and Simon D). I much appreciate the extras about the traction engines/rollers. Added to the very skimpy files about these. Tony - I hope it's OK that I've added your photos to my files although properly watermarked across the centre with a large "copyright". These files will only ever see the light of day when I'm asked for specific info so it's very unlikely that anyone outside this group will see them. Please let me know if you're not comfortable with that.

Thanks to you too, Overseer. We've built up a really comprehensive amount of info about that small part of London. Pretty good from a standing start I reckon.

Martin and Dave. Thanks to you both for really expanding the info about that Q1. That's an amazing amount of detail.

The extras today will doubtless set some of our cohorts blood racing and I expect to be much better educated once the photos have been published here, but first:

Class U 2-6-0 31624 and an unidentified Q1 0-6-0 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. The U was allocated to Nine Elms and had been there since August 1956. It was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was observed in store at Nine Elms in June and October 1964 (RO) and was disposed of at Ward's, Grays, Essex. (WHTS). BR Database proposes a scrapping date of November 1964.



N Class 31818 and 31816 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. 31818 was allocated to Eastleigh from the end of May 1961 having previously been at Tonbridge. It then went to Exmouth Junction from early February 1962 and was withdrawn at the beginning of September 1963. (SLS). It was reported to have been at Eastleigh between 5th August and 6th September 1963 (RO) and was observed in the works yard on 7th September 1963. (SLS) being cut up week ending 28th September 1963. (RO).

31816 had been a resident of Hither Green and was reallocated to Eastleigh in late May 1961, going to Weymouth Radipole in July 1963, then Redhill in June 1964 and finally Guildford in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in April 1966. (BR Database although WHTS advise verification required.)



Schools Class 30932 Blundells on the scrap line at Ashford Works Yard on 3rd June 1961. I believe this was the second Schools to be withdrawn - Harrow (30919) was the first. I saw and photographed this loco in the yard at Ashford during my trip on 5th April 1961. It had been a long time resident of Bricklayers Arms where it had been in and out of store since June 1950 but was finally withdrawn in January 1961 so it hung around Ashford for a long while. It was observed in February, May, July and August at Ashford (RO and SLS) and was eventually cut up week ending 19th August 1961.



With apologies don't know where, don't know when. (I think I'll write a song about that). And don't know what. Please enlighten me. (and there are two photos of it.)

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.





Here's another about which I have no knowledge at all. If anyone can suggest an approximate date and location I'll really appreciate it but there's more to come which may help.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.



Brian

 

[AJC]

I don't know a lot about motorcars, but there's a shot of the car, which I learn is from 1908, here:

https://flic.kr/p/2pc7Ca1

The van would seem to be a Ford Model T, but that's all I can usefully add. EDIT: not so, I'm pretty certain it's XE440, shown here:

https://flic.kr/p/p3v6SK

Anyway, from the captions on Flickr, the combination points to somewhere in Hertfordshire!

Adam

 

[mickoo]

We'll move on to a new diversion at the end of this post. First we'll visit the works at Ashford. Anyone want some backhead detail for an N or a Q1?

An unidentified Q1 and H 31533 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. The H had only recently been allocated to Tunbridge Wells West in May 1961 and I suspect that this was a book allocation while the loco was in works. It had previously been at Tonbridge since April 1960. Pull-push gear was fitted to the loco in the same month which suggests it was specifically for use on the pull-push trains out of Tonbridge. It was withdrawn from Tunbridge Wells West in September 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it then went to Eastleigh Works where it was scrapped week ending 29th September 1962.

View attachment 211996

The unidentified Q1 is 33022, time has simply turned 180° when taking the picture of the cab less 31858.

 

[mickoo]

Interesting in img2711 (31816) those are Q1 side panels on the floor and look to be marked G16 or 616, I don't have records for Q1's but it'd be interesting to see if 33016 was in Eastleigh the same time as 33022? That might give your second Q1 an identity.

 

[Paul Tomlinson]

Interesting in img2711 (31816) those are Q1 side panels on the floor and look to be marked G16 or 616, I don't have records for Q1's but it'd be interesting to see if 33016 was in Eastleigh the same time as 33022? That might give your second Q1 an identity.

Possibly a chalked C16, it's original number when built?

 

[Barry37]

Did they merge to become Parry Tyzack? I used to buy lathe tool blanks etc in Old Street (1990s) but can’t quite remember the name of the shop. There was another Tyzack, maybe H. Tyzack, a few doors east but they sold more general tools.

Don't know about that.
I associate the Tyzack name with woodworking saws (although they apparently made a lot of other tools as well). There seem to have been several Tyzacks trading - with different initials. There's still one at 79 Kingsland Road, a little to the north of the Eastern End of Old Street. Seems to be an Aladdin's cave for tool buyers.

 

[Osgood]

...
Tony - I hope it's OK that I've added your photos to my files although properly watermarked across the centre with a large "copyright". These files will only ever see the light of day when I'm asked for specific info so it's very unlikely that anyone outside this group will see them. Please let me know if you're not comfortable with that.

Absolutely fine Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Right! I'm gonna try to get on top of what we have so far as tomorrow and for most of Tuesday I'll be busy too.

Thanks Adam. Well found. I've looked it up and can't find A6254 on the DVLA site. Nice photo though. I thought Ford Model T when I saw the van as well but XE440 seems about right. The DVLA says it's a Ford and it's green.

I had the unidentified Q1 as 33022 to start with too, Mick, but the travelling crane is, IMHO, in the wrong position. I really studied that frame too. I'll have another look, though.

Good bit of sleuthing on 33016, though. It was in Ashford Works Erecting Shop on 28th July 1961. That really fits so a big tick!

Barry - good to keep this going and build as much back ground as we can. Great stuff.

Tony - thank you. You'll be aware that I'm quite sensitive about copyright issues.

There's lots of lovely stuff here so thank you all.

Brian

 

[simond]

The car is, as Adam suggested, a Standard. The flag emblem is confirmation. If it is indeed a model D it was 30 HP from a four litre six, and would have been a mighty beast indeed in 1908!

Standard Motor Company - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The van looks lots like a Model T to me…. DVLA confirms that XE440 is a 3.2 litre Ford first registered in 1921, and I found the same Flickr site which confirms it’s a ”T”.

I see Brian and I have been on the same goose chase….

 

[mickoo]

Right! I'm gonna try to get on top of what we have so far as tomorrow and for most of Tuesday I'll be busy too.

Thanks Adam. Well found. I've looked it up and can't find A6254 on the DVLA site. Nice photo though. I thought Ford Model T when I saw the van as well but XE440 seems about right. The DVLA says it's a Ford and it's green.

I had the unidentified Q1 as 33022 to start with too, Mick, but the travelling crane is, IMHO, in the wrong position. I really studied that frame too. I'll have another look, though.

Good bit of sleuthing on 33016, though. It was in Ashford Works Erecting Shop on 28th July 1961. That really fits so a big tick!

Barry - good to keep this going and build as much back ground as we can. Great stuff.

Tony - thank you. You'll be aware that I'm quite sensitive about copyright issues.

There's lots of lovely stuff here so thank you all.

Brian

There will be two cranes, you can't pick and engine up with one

All big workshops had two, sometimes four on the same rails if the hall was long (Crewe, Derby etc)

In fact there are at least three cranes in that hall and the middle one is almost certainly moving.

The biggest is at the far end near the BR tank with it's fish belly plate work.



At the other end is a lighter one with shallow beams, seen beyond 33022. Directly over 33022 is a warren truss type.



In this shot here the warren truss one is way down the end bu the big one.



It's not in this view of 31858 so wouldn't be over or near 33022.....but.



In the next view it has moved from the far end and is directly over the cab of 31858 which is at far left in front of 31818



Conclusion, the lattice girder crane is moving/has moved.

The final give away is the bits of engine on the middle road, the Q1 chimney next to the sheet cladding (laid at 45°) is in the same place in a diagonal line between 33022 and 31858, note also the sack barrow along the same line of sight.

 

[AJC]

Right! I'm gonna try to get on top of what we have so far as tomorrow and for most of Tuesday I'll be busy too.

Thanks Adam. Well found. I've looked it up and can't find A6254 on the DVLA site. Nice photo though. I thought Ford Model T when I saw the van as well but XE440 seems about right. The DVLA says it's a Ford and it's green.


Brian

Pretty much all the know details around the Standard you could want are in the caption on the original Flickr page: believed exported, possibly to Japan 20 years or so ago - hence the non-appearance with the DVLA. The owners (probably at the time of Tim's picture) are noted and the 'T' has very distinctive coachwork so I'm pretty confident (again, the captions in the Flickr image give as much as you might reasonably wish).

As @simond says, the Standard is quite a beast for a pre-First World War date.

Adam

 

[mickoo]

Possibly a chalked C16, it's original number when built?

I'll take that, good call