Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[AndyB]

The hearse is also an Austin, model 20/4 of 1926, reg 92 FLU.
According to info here it came from the Isle of Man and was re-registered. The DVLA record shows first registration in May 1963 (also year of manufacture as 1963, but that could be an error from the computerisation of old records).
So if our event is June 1963, this would have been one of its first outings after re-registration.

 

[oldravendale]

Goodness me! What a huge amount of knowledge on here. You never cease to amaze me...

Firstly, because we're well off piste with the photos of road vehicles I'm thanking Andy for loads of lovely stuff. I've looked at the poster on the side of the Ford TT using the TIF original and the date is absolutely right. The only question we must still have is whether it was advertising the next rally it would attend or does this refer to the vehicles we are seeing on the day. Whichever way it may be we are firmly in the early 1960s so thanks for some very helpful information. As for the background of so many other vehicles I'm in awe. All info carefully preserved. And to Overseer for identifying the Ford TT.

Mike and Barry. Thanks for confirming the location of that Q1. Details now amended.

Simond. Nice photos, but should that photographer not have his trousers rolled up and be sitting in a deck chair?

Martin. More and better info for which I thank you, particularly about that BoB. And the H, and the Q1.

Moving on, these photo, and also those in the next post, are of a single series of photos which I'll detail up front and then then just run as a series. They'll probably last two posts and then we'll get back to our normal variety. Cars will follow again, after this set.

Tim has these as Wimbledon 13th December 1962. I don't doubt the location but Six Bells Junction advises that two 0298 well tanks, 30585 and 30587 worked two trains organised by the Railway Correspondence and Travel Society and Stephenson Locomotive Society and titled the South Western Suburban Railtour on 2nd and 16th December. Furthermore the one on 2nd December was recorded as "SPL12". Regrettably the second tour reporting number is not recorded. Both - in fact the remaining three 0298 tanks - were withdrawn after these specials.

The third loco involved in the tour, H16 30517, was memorable because the large SR tanks were not normally allowed to work passenger trains which has been related back to the Sevenoaks Railway Accident of 1927 when a large tank engine rolled, although the evidence suggests that this was associated with poor track work coupled with the high centre of gravity of the loco. Sevenoaks railway accident - Wikipedia
Nevertheless the SR never thereafter allowed large tank engines on passenger trains until the Fairburn and Standard 2-6-4 tanks. Although there are pictures of the H16 on this train on Six Bells Junction The Railtour Files Tim has no photos.

Class U 31796 also features in this set, although it had nothing to do with the tour itself. To cover that first, at the time it was allocated to Nine Elms and had been since May 1959 where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). The LCGB reported it outside Bird's at Morriston on 16th August 1964 so it was scrapped there soon after.

30585 and 30587 were both withdrawn nominally from Wadebridge on 29th December 1962. The third of the trio, 30586 and the only one to be scrapped at Eastleigh was withdrawn on the same date. For information about the surviving two locos see 30585 (LSWR 314, LSWR 0314, SR E0314, SR 3314 & BR 30585) and 30587 (LSWR 298, LSWR 0298, SR E0298, SR 3289 & BR 30587)






















Brian

 

[LarryG]

Leading wheel set suspended from the slidebars....Wow!

 

[timbowales]

Leading wheel set suspended from the slidebars....Wow!

There is an intriguing follow-up question to this, if the underslung spring acts on the axlebox journal on the end what is the overslung spring above acting on? Were there actually four bearings on that leading axle?
Puzzled of Llanelli

 

[simond]

Simond. Nice photos, but should that photographer not have his trousers rolled up and be sitting in a deck chair?

Phil, the photographer, is a regular member of the Kent Moto Guzzi club, so I see him most months.
At the time, he lived across the road from Madame & I. Stu, holding the brolly, still lives on the Wirral.

 

[Barry37]

Goodness me! What a huge amount of knowledge on here. You never cease to amaze me...

Firstly, because we're well off piste with the photos of road vehicles I'm thanking Andy for loads of lovely stuff. I've looked at the poster on the side of the Ford TT using the TIF original and the date is absolutely right. The only question we must still have is whether it was advertising the next rally it would attend or does this refer to the vehicles we are seeing on the day. Whichever way it may be we are firmly in the early 1960s so thanks for some very helpful information. As for the background of so many other vehicles I'm in awe. All info carefully preserved. And to Overseer for identifying the Ford TT.

Mike and Barry. Thanks for confirming the location of that Q1. Details now amended.

Simond. Nice photos, but should that photographer not have his trousers rolled up and be sitting in a deck chair?

Martin. More and better info for which I thank you, particularly about that BoB. And the H, and the Q1.

Moving on, these photo, and also those in the next post, are of a single series of photos which I'll detail up front and then then just run as a series. They'll probably last two posts and then we'll get back to our normal variety. Cars will follow again, after this set.

Tim has these as Wimbledon 13th December 1962. I don't doubt the location but Six Bells Junction advises that two 0298 well tanks, 30585 and 30587 worked two trains organised by the Railway Correspondence and Travel Society and Stephenson Locomotive Society and titled the South Western Suburban Railtour on 2nd and 16th December. Furthermore the one on 2nd December was recorded as "SPL12". Regrettably the second tour reporting number is not recorded. Both - in fact the remaining three 0298 tanks - were withdrawn after these specials.

The third loco involved in the tour, H16 30517, was memorable because the large SR tanks were not normally allowed to work passenger trains which has been related back to the Sevenoaks Railway Accident of 1927 when a large tank engine rolled, although the evidence suggests that this was associated with poor track work coupled with the high centre of gravity of the loco. Sevenoaks railway accident - Wikipedia
Nevertheless the SR never thereafter allowed large tank engines on passenger trains until the Fairburn and Standard 2-6-4 tanks. Although there are pictures of the H16 on this train on Six Bells Junction The Railtour Files Tim has no photos.

Class U 31796 also features in this set, although it had nothing to do with the tour itself. To cover that first, at the time it was allocated to Nine Elms and had been since May 1959 where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). The LCGB reported it outside Bird's at Morriston on 16th August 1964 so it was scrapped there soon after.

30585 and 30587 were both withdrawn nominally from Wadebridge on 29th December 1962. The third of the trio, 30586 and the only one to be scrapped at Eastleigh was withdrawn on the same date. For information about the surviving two locos see 30585 (LSWR 314, LSWR 0314, SR E0314, SR 3314 & BR 30585) and 30587 (LSWR 298, LSWR 0298, SR E0298, SR 3289 & BR 30587)

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Brian

Only ten years later, 30587 had taken up residence in the former Pullman car works north of Brighton station.
Due to the difficulty of being reached without possible electrocution*, it was an ideal location to store homeless items of the NRM collection. Here the loco is being towed to Brighton station for a fundraising event for the Southern Railwaymens' Childrens Home (in Woking?). 92220 Evening Star was also extracted for the event, plus an 0-4-0 electric shunter.
* The line to Hove runs behind the building.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Barry. My daughter lived in Preston Park when she first moved to Brighton but her house was well below the level of the railway. In fact one rarely heard it. Up to a few years ago there was much evidence of the old works and shed in Brighton but that's all been swept away now for redevelopment. I wish I'd thought to take some photos! I don't know about the Pullman building at Preston Park but I suspect that's gone as well.

In fact there were quite a few of the national collection stored there for a few years.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for yours, Larry. I'd never noticed that slidebar/wheel arrangement previously. (I guess I would have done so if I'd ever built a model). And then your question, Tim, which deserves an answer if any of our erudite friends on here are aware.

Nice memory there, Simon.

The submissions for today are a continuation of the sequence above so the same details apply. After this we'll move back to a more varied diet.













Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thanks, Barry. My daughter lived in Preston Park when she first moved to Brighton but her house was well below the level of the railway. In fact one rarely heard it. Up to a few years ago there was much evidence of the old works and shed in Brighton but that's all been swept away now for redevelopment. I wish I'd thought to take some photos! I don't know about the Pullman building at Preston Park but I suspect that's gone as well.

In fact there were quite a few of the national collection stored there for a few years.

Brian

The Pullman car works went a while ago - sometime between 2009 & 2013, according to Google Earth historical imagery. Demolition was probably put off by the difficulty of getting to the site.
I don't think I knew when I took the photo, that my grandfather's childhood home (c.1910s) was one of the low houses on the right. Despite having a camera at that time, only one of his photos shows *any* of the railway (no train!), and that's only because it was beyond the garden wall in a photo of the garden.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've had a look at the drawing contained in Bradley and it appears that Mr Beattie used this unusual arrangement of 4 leaf springs supporting the leading axle on a lot of his 2-4-0 engines, both tender and tank. It seems that the main plate frames ended at the rear of the cylinders and beyond them was almost an after thought for something to hang the buffers and drawhook on. It looks as thought the cylinders become an integral part of the frame construction but with the inevitability that it all worked a bit with the racking stresses from piston movements. There is a bearing through the front of the main frame supported by the inner springs and the axle has a journal at the end running in the box supported under the slide bar providing additional support and strength at the front end. In earlier engines the outer bearing is supported by a much larger casting than appears latterly and I wonder whether it was originally seen as a neceessity that could be reduced as design function became better understood in later Victorian times.

I'm not enough of a mechanical engineer to be sure I'm correct but it makes some sense.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the update on the Pullman Works, Barry. My daughter lived very close to the Crown and Anchor on London Road - in fact one of the turnings off the London Road in the direction of the railway so probably a close neighbour of where your grandfather lived.

Thank you for your commentary, Martin. To a non-engineer like me that description seems likely, so into the files it will go.

A1 Class 60118 Archibald Sturrock carrying a 56B Ardsley shed plate on arrival at Kings Cross with a “Special” identified as 1F55 on 13th December 1962. It had moved to Ardsley from Copley Hill, Leeds, a month previously, then went to Neville Hill in August 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was sold for scrap in December the same year to T W Ward, Beighton.



Jubilee 45682 Trafalger on the 12.00 Nottingham train 1E11 at Hendon Station on 13th December 1962. This loco has been seen previously at Euston in post #3062. This had been on the Bristol Barrow Road allocation since November 1957 and was withdrawn from there in June 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird's, Swansea, around the end of the year according to WHTS or in August 1964 according to BR Database although no scrap yard location is quoted in that source.



Another Jubilee, 45578 United Provinces on the 12.20 Manchester train at Hendon on 13th December 1962. The loco was allocated to Aston in January 1962, going to Newton Heath at the end of March where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1964. (SLS). It was observed in Ward’s Yard at Killamarsh, Sheffield on 15th November 1964 (RO) and was scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).



This is probably at the Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford, on 30th June 1963. The vehicle has featured previously in post #3309 (img4204) and the flicker photo in #3310. DVLA confirms that XE440 is a 3.2 litre Ford first registered in 1921, and the Flickr site confirms it’s a ”T”.



Also probably at the Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963. DVLA don’t have a record of 629VW and I’m not able to identify the vehicle. Looking closely the vehicle appears to have a second registration number plate ending in 07 or 97 – or could this be the year of manufacture? More advice will be valued.



Moving on to what may be the London to Brighton run and photographed in Hyde Park, although date unknown. The DVLA advises this is a Ford Model T in yellow. More exciting for me is the Ford Consul Mark 1 in black to the right of the subject. A black 1956 Ford Consul was my first car, purchased in 1966 for the princely sum of £50. I kept it for two or three years, then leant it to a friend who wrecked it – but I got my £50 back! I loved that car despite the rust.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Nice to see a couple of Midland Main Line ( as it is now known) pictures. As a young train-spotter I was brought up to regard 'Jubilees' as the star passenger locos in daily use through my home city. Locos of that class from Barrow Road and Newton Heath were regularly seen as were others from major sheds along the route. As an aside, one Nottingham allocated Jubilee, 45536 Uganda escaped me for many years but was eventually underlined in my Ian Allan stock book following a chance sighting when I was passing the London line on other business.

As time progressed and diesels appeared on WCML work, so 'Royal Scot' 4-6-0's were allocated to work out of St Pancras usurping the Jubilees on many major turns. Ultimately as steam was replaced on the MML and the 'Peaks' became universal. Jubilees and Scots lingered on in the Midlands, albeit in deplorable condition and disliked by the crews, on what was left of the sacrificed Great Central London Extension.

My thanks again for this welcome reminder of times past.

Roger

 

[Heather Kay]

Interesting— if not down right scary - to think the distance in time between now and the Hillman Husky is greater than between that and the T in front of it.

 

[76043]

Looks like a baby Deltic in that first shot, D5900 the first of the class?
Tony

 

[AJC]

Looks like a baby Deltic in that first shot, D5900 the first of the class?
Tony

Yes, I think that’s right. Certainly that type, on ECS?

Adam

 

[LarryG]

I'm asking to have my wrists slapped for reprocessing this picture, but it really is a good action shot. The leading coach is one of the earlier Stanier brake seconds to D1905 followed by a post-war corridor composite with extra corridor doors to D2117....

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for lots more here.

Nice memory again, Roger. I remember the Scots in their declining years too, and they were very poor. Such a shame after their sparkling performance for so long on the WCML.

An interesting observation, Heather. I'd not previously considered the ages of those vehicles in a similar manner. I feel really old!

Tony and Adam. That's definitely a Baby Deltic and D5900 is correct. Whether it was on empty stock or not I have no way of telling.

Larry - Good stuff! Thanks for doing that and for the details of the coaching stock. You'll understand that I have so many negatives to process they usually go through a simple density/dirt/contrast correction process so I reckon in nearly every case there's more to be garnered from the originals. It's also really noticeable that when I've made the density corrections during the day and in a brightly lit room the photos look dark - sometimes very dark - when viewed in the evening on WT. Sometimes I go back and lift them a bit but usually I have to let them speak for themselves. Eventually there'll be a select few - and even then it'll run in to hundreds - which will receive closer attention before considering with Tim's family whether to publish them more widely. Your work on that last photo shows that such treatment will be more than worthwhile.

Brian

 

[daifly]

The 'mystery' car reg 629VW is a 1920s Bean Tourer from photographic comparisons but I can find no other references for this particular vehicle.

Dave

Edit: On further investigation I feel the 629VW reg plate is a red herring as almost all Bean photos show the plate immediately below the radiator suggesting that this vehicle may have a reg ending in 07 as Brian speculated.

 

[Osgood]

The 'mystery' car reg 629VW is a 1920s Bean Tourer from photographic comparisons but I can find no other references for this particular vehicle.

Dave

Edit: On further investigation I feel the 629VW reg plate is a red herring as almost all Bean photos show the plate immediately below the radiator suggesting that this vehicle may have a reg ending in 07 as Brian speculated.

I always thought trade plates ended with PW, but maybe VW was also used - that would certainly explain the two sets of plates.

 

[Martin Shaw]

60118 Archibald Sturrock Copley Hill 12/11/48, Ardsley 4/11/62, Neville Hill 28/7/63, Wdn 4/10/65, Sold for scrap 11/65.
45682 Trafalgar Crewe North 11/1/36, Kentish Town 11/9/37, Bristol 1/11/47, Trafford park (Loan) 25/9/48, Bristol 27/11/48, Wdn 6/64.
45578 United Provinces Moved around the principal express sheds at the northern end of the WCML and seemed to change every couple or so years.
Somewhat inevitably a part of colonial India formed on the 1st April 1937, it lasted post british rule until 1950 when it became Uttarpradesh, subsequently the state of Uttarakhand was created from part of Uttarpradesh.