Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

A nice few "extras" there for which many thanks.

Adam @AJC - I agree, that photo is just the "soft" side of perfect but thanks for picking up the detail of the Palvans. I can't work out what the vehicle is on the Lowmac either.

Ian @Lancastrian and @40057 . I was not aware that 45020 was the first Black 5. Something new to add to the info for sure.

Larry - thanks for clarifying the situation re-the Patriots. And Dave @Dave Holt - I think that term is rather uncalled for! My previous understanding was that, for their time, they were good locos, whatever good may mean in any particular context. They were much improved by rebuilding, of course.

Barry @Barry37 . Thanks for adding to the info surrounding the steel mineral. Much appreciated.

Thank you Dave @Yorkshire Dave for yours. I noticed that train to the left and wondered if it could have anything to do with preparing for the OHLE but it's just a bit difficult to see properly. The vehicles certainly look like some sort of Engineers' Train though and thanks for your extra thoughts, Barry. As for the W that's good background to add to the photo.

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42095 at Willesden Station on a down Tring local train on 19th May 1961. This was one of the Fairburns build to try an element of modernisation to the Southern’s secondary services. It moved away to Watford in January 1960, Carlisle Canal in August 1961 and Tebay in June 1963 where it was withdrawn three years later (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge where it was scrapped in August 1966. (BR Database). Is that the as yet to be properly identified (thanks @Yorkshire Dave and @Barry37 ) Engineers' Train on the right?



Jubilee 45672 Anson at Willesden with the Royal Scot empty stock on 19th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in early March 1961 and moved to Rugby in July. It was back at Willesden in January 1964 and finally Crewe North in the following September where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). Thereafter the Railway Observer reported it at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database that it was scrapped in April 1965.



Black 5 45288 at Willesden on a down Birmingham relief train on 19th May 1961. That head board seems to read W711 by examination of the original TIFF file. 45288 moved around a lot after leaving Willesden where it had been allocated since November 1960. It went to Rugby in September 1963, Crewe North in June 1964, Bescot in September the same year, Banbury in October 1965, Colwick in February 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in May 1966 where it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the beginning of April 1968. (WHTS and BR Database).



The same loco, again at Willesden but this time on the following day and heading an unidentified up special. That headboard looks the same as the shot above but is just unreadable except for the first letter which is certainly "W".



Brian

 

[Barry37]

A nice few "extras" there for which many thanks.

Adam @AJC - I agree, that photo is just the "soft" side of perfect but thanks for picking up the detail of the Palvans. I can't work out what the vehicle is on the Lowmac either.

Ian @Lancastrian and @40057 . I was not aware that 45020 was the first Black 5. Something new to add to the info for sure.

Larry - thanks for clarifying the situation re-the Patriots. And Dave @Dave Holt - I think that term is rather uncalled for! My previous understanding was that, for their time, they were good locos, whatever good may mean in any particular context. They were much improved by rebuilding, of course.

Barry @Barry37 . Thanks for adding to the info surrounding the steel mineral. Much appreciated.

Thank you Dave @Yorkshire Dave for yours. I noticed that train to the left and wondered if it could have anything to do with preparing for the OHLE but it's just a bit difficult to see properly. The vehicles certainly look like some sort of Engineers' Train though and thanks for your extra thoughts, Barry. As for the W that's good background to add to the photo.

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42095 at Willesden Station on a down Tring local train on 19th May 1961. This was one of the Fairburns build to try an element of modernisation to the Southern’s secondary services. It moved away to Watford in January 1960, Carlisle Canal in August 1961 and Tebay in June 1963 where it was withdrawn three years later (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge where it was scrapped in August 1966. (BR Database). Is that the as yet to be properly identified (thanks @Yorkshire Dave and @Barry37 ) Engineers' Train on the right?

View attachment 220637

Jubilee 45672 Anson at Willesden with the Royal Scot empty stock on 19th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Willesden in early March 1961 and moved to Rugby in July. It was back at Willesden in January 1964 and finally Crewe North in the following September where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). Thereafter the Railway Observer reported it at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database that it was scrapped in April 1965.

View attachment 220638

Black 5 45288 at Willesden on a down Birmingham relief train on 19th May 1961. That head board seems to read W711 by examination of the original TIFF file. 45288 moved around a lot after leaving Willesden where it had been allocated since November 1960. It went to Rugby in September 1963, Crewe North in June 1964, Bescot in September the same year, Banbury in October 1965, Colwick in February 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in May 1966 where it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, at the beginning of April 1968. (WHTS and BR Database).

View attachment 220639

The same loco, again at Willesden but this time on the following day and heading an unidentified up special. That headboard looks the same as the shot above but is just unreadable except for the first letter which is certainly "W".

View attachment 220640

Brian

Looking more closely at the photo of 45020, there are two similar vehicles - the second one is beyond the brake van. In the first photo above (42095), taken the same day, this vehicle (and its "train") is on the right of the photo. It has a "runner" wagon under what, I assume, is the counter-balance for one of its jibs.
The vehicle in the other photo may also have a "runner", but that would be off to the left of the photo.
These may be self-propelled (slowly) track-relaying wagons, but they don't match anything in the books I have, or Paul Bartlett's photo pages.
AFAIK, electrification in this area was a year or more later than the date of this photo, which seems to rule out them being OHLE plant.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Barry @Barry37 . I had my doubts about suggesting a train associated with the electrification but you seem to have put that one to bed. That train seems to be in a bay so may just be parked out of the way. There's another "incidental" image of it in the photo of 44679 in post #3758 which may offer further clues.

There must have been a Patriot convention in London while Tim was at Willesden. There seem to have been a lot of them about, but to start with:

Jubilee 45733 Novelty on a down Birmingham express at Willesden Junction on 19th May 1961. It had been allocated to Willesden since September 1960, then to Rugby in July 1961, Crewe North in July 1963, back to Willesden in January 1964 and for a second stay at Crewe North in September the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in January 1965. (BR Database).



This time a decent portrait of a rebuilt Patriot.

Rebuilt Patriot 45529 at Willesden up light and ready to work a train out of Euston on 19th May 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in February 1961, going to Annesley in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was observed at Crewe Works (WHTS) and was scrapped in February 1964. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Patriot 45530 Sir Frank Ree on a down Perth and Inverness relief train at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It had been allocated to Camden in September 1960 and then Willesden in July 1961 followed by Llandudno Junction in September and back to Willesden in August 1962 This was followed by Holyhead in July 1964 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in January 1965 where it was withdrawn a year later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Inslow Works, Wishaw, by the end of March 1966. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Three photos here today which are a bit "samey" and traditional - rather out of keeping with Tim's normal fair. Nonetheless, of their type they are decent photos.

Black 5 45248 passing Willesden Station with a down fitted freight on 19th May 1961. The loco was allocated to Crewe South at the end of October 1960 and withdrawn from there in February 1966 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in the following July.



One of the ex-Western Region Britannias 70017 Arrow on the down Northern Irishman at Willesden Station on 19th May 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in either December 1960 or February 1961 and moved to Aston in September 1961. It was then at Rugby from November 1962, back to Aston in March, Llandudno Junction in June and Crewe North in October – all 1963. It moved to Crewe South in June and Newton Heath in August 1965 and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in June 1966 where it was withdrawn the following October. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in January 1967. (BR Database). The same source advises that the loco was involved in a collision with a freight train at Carlisle on 30th July 1966 and the damage prevented further use although official withdrawal did not come until October.



Caprotti Black 5 44748 on a down Oban relief train passing Willesden on 19th May 1961. 44748 had been a Longsight engine since new in February 1948 although it went to Derby for a week on loan, also in February 1948 before being returned to Longsight a week later. (SLS). I wonder whether it was called in to Derby for some sort of test procedure. It was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). BR Database report it scrapped in December 1964 and WHTS that this was at Crewe Works although verification is required.



Brian

 

[76043]

Well Brian, you may say samey and traditional, but each one has something for us modellers, so thank you for posting them. Firstly the fitted freight has a brake van marshalled in the middle, probably being returned somewhere or somesuch. The second shot has a Gresley BT behind the LMS Period II dining car and the last pic shows in second place a shiney new BR Mk1 sleeping car on commonwealth bogies.

Dare I suggest the Gresley BT looks a bit short in comparison to the Mk1s and could be a GE section coach?

Nothing remarkable really, but who does stick a brake van in the middle or places a GE section BT on an LMR train and who doesn't weather at least one item of stock to show new or overhauled stock?

Thanks again!
Tony

 

[Barry37]

Well Brian, you may say samey and traditional, but each one has something for us modellers, so thank you for posting them. Firstly the fitted freight has a brake van marshalled in the middle, probably being returned somewhere or somesuch. The second shot has a Gresley BT behind the LMS Period II dining car and the last pic shows in second place a shiney new BR Mk1 sleeping car on commonwealth bogies.

Dare I suggest the Gresley BT looks a bit short in comparison to the Mk1s and could be a GE section coach?

Nothing remarkable really, but who does stick a brake van in the middle or places a GE section BT on an LMR train and who doesn't weather at least one item of stock to show new or overhauled stock?

Thanks again!
Tony

The fourth vehicle is carrying a container with a leaky roof. Whoever put the sheet over it, doesn't seem to have tied it properly, as it's probably not going to do its job of keeping rain out.

 

[oldravendale]

Well, for what I considered quite ordinary pictures they've created a bit of interest. It's particularly gratifying when these details are picked up because it gives us an opportunity to say to the exhibition gainsayers that our train incorporating a GER coach in an LMS set follows the prototype and we have the picture to prove it! I'd never have though of sheeting a container either, certainly not in that haphazard fashion so there's another one and I don't believe a guards van in the middle of a goods train was so unusual. I suspect it was convenient when the train was going to split at some point. In any event, thank you Tony @76043 and Barry @Barry37 .

This is double chimney Black 5 44766 at Willesden Shed on 19th May 1961. It moved to Bescot in July 1960 from Monument Lane and via Stourbridge Junction (April 1966), Llandudno Junction in June and Chester in October the same year, eventually Crewe South in May 1967. It was withdrawn from Crewe South in August the same year (SLS) and scrapped in December the same year at Cashmore's, Newport. (BR Database and SLS).





Trimming the coal on Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester outside the station at Willesden Junction on 20th May 1961. It was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.

Now known to be Camden rather than Willesden.




Princess Coronation 46247 City of Liverpool light at Willesden Station and carrying the Irish Mail headboard on 20th May 1961. This had been a Camden engine since building but transferred to Carlisle Kingmoor from June 1961 (SLS). It was ultimately withdrawn from Kingmoor in May 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped by the end of July 1963 at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).







Brian

 

[simond]

Handsome beast!

 

[oldravendale]

I didn't know you cared, Simon.

Princess Coronation 46225 Duchess of Gloucester on a down express passing 46247 City of Liverpool (see above) at Willesden Station on 20th May 1961. 46225 had been on Carlisle Upperby’s allocation from July 1959 until withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon in December the same year.



Willesden Junction Station and Princess Coronation 46234 Duchess of Abercorn stands light engine on 20th May 1961. It was a Camden engine in July 1959, moving to Carlisle Upperby in November the same year. It went to Crewe Works for destruction which was completed by the end of June 1963. (Rail UK). WHTS confirms it as seen in store at Willesden on 17th February and 10th March 1963, then at Crewe South, nominally awaiting works, on 21st April.



Royal Scot 46106 Gordon Highlander with the unique smoke deflectors on the GC line overbridge spanning the WCML at South Kenton on a Nottingham to Marylebone train on 30th May 1962. The location is geographically correct but known as Northwick Park to us train spotters and photographed from precisely the spot where I started my interest in railways in about 1958. That could even be my bike leaning against the fence close to the GC line - I'd never have dumped it as unceremoniously as the one in the foreground! It's another of those occasions when I wonder if I met Tim without realising and that we'd have such a close association a few years later. 46106 was a Derby engine from July 1961 and made the move to Leicester GC in the four week period preceding 2nd June 1961. (SLS) It was one of the first two Scots to the GCR (the other was 46118) as a trial 12 May to 30 June (thanks to Martin Shaw). After Leicester it went Carlisle Upperby where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). The RO advises it was observed at Crewe Works in April 1963 and the remains were seen by the SLS the following month. BR Database gives the scrapping date as 26th April 1963.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

I almost said Gresley shorties until I realised there were two artic-pairs behind 'Gordon highlander' on the GC line.

The side-by-side 'Duchess's would have been a classic had the intrepid photographer fired sooner. I hoped for years to capture something similar with Diesel locos on the Down fast & slow lines between Prestatyn and Rhyl. Some hopes!

 

[Martin Shaw]

The very clean Duchess in #3095 raises a minor question, how common were this class on the Irish Mail? It's the sort of job a rebuilt Scot would have easily taken in it's stride and certainly Holyhead depot had an allocation of 5 or more in the early sixties. Idle curiosity on my part really but any thoughts would be interesting.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Here's a thought, Martin. The SLS report 46247 in the Crewe Erecting Shop on 7th May 1961. That and the cleanliness suggests - or virtually confirms - an overhaul so I wonder if the Irish Mail, being considered well within a Princess Coronation hauling abilities was a running in turn?

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Indeed Brian, highly likely. I note from my info that the Camden allocated loco was ex Crewe works on Tuesday the 16th May so allowing for a day or so's efforts to get it back into traffic and returned to London a running in trip to Holyhead on the following Saturday seems obvious. It may well be its first revenue earning turn after overhaul.
Regards
Martin

 

[40057]

The very clean Duchess in #3095 raises a minor question, how common were this class on the Irish Mail? It's the sort of job a rebuilt Scot would have easily taken in it's stride and certainly Holyhead depot had an allocation of 5 or more in the early sixties. Idle curiosity on my part really but any thoughts would be interesting.
Regards
Martin

My supposition is that, by this date, there were Duchesses looking for work as they were no longer needed for the top WCML turns.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

My supposition is that, by this date, there were Duchesses looking for work as they were no longer needed for the top WCML turns.

The chances are they would have still been required for the top WCML turns as English Electric type 4 (class 40) diesels were still being delivered in 1962 at the time of Tim's photos. Which, in turn, probably allowed the LMR to withdraw the older lower powered locomotives from the top link services.

My Dad's photos below were taken around the same period as Tim's. Both are at Leighton buzzard and hauling the same named train.

46245 City of London


English Electric type 4 diesel (class 40) D302.

 

[oldravendale]

Once again you've picked up something I failed to note, Larry, namely those pairs of coaches. Thanks for that. And the two Princess Coronations would have been improved with an earlier firing of the button, I agree, but we have to admit that, although he missed a few the majority of the pictures are of a good to high quality. I'll live with the occasional late button press!

I commented on Martin's @Martin Shaw note previously, but thank Dave @Yorkshire Dave for his additions. Out of interest I remember the LMS twin diesels having charge of the Royal Scot for a very long time and steam only being used occasionally. There's also another factor, commented on previously, that really those EE Type 4 diesels were not up to the job in the same way as the big pacifics. There may have been an unwillingness to let the Coronations go on that account - looking at Tim's pictures of the time the loads were, by todays standards, prodigious, quite regularly 14 or on occasion even more vehicles. Looking back I suspect we were on the cusp of the situation described by @40057 .

BR Standard Class 5 73157 on the GC line overbridge at Northwick Park with a Marylebone to Nottingham train on 30th May 1962 with what looks like a milk tank immediately behind the loco which was allocated to Neasden in July 1950 and moved to Cricklewood in June 1962. This was followed by moves to Chester in early June 1963, Woodford Halse in November the same year, Oxley in February and Patricroft in April, both 1965, before withdrawal in May 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in August 1968.



The subject of several previous posts Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland is here on a Holyhead to Euston train at Northwick Park, DC lines in the foreground, on 30th May 1962. It had been allocated to Crewe North since July 1959 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).



Here's Standard 4 4-6-0 75031on a down Bletchley train at Northwick Park on 30th May 1962. It was a Willesden engine and had been since September 1961. It moved to Aston in December 1962 and finally Stoke in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Beighton in May the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

After being made redundant on the WCML, it was as if the Duchesses were an embarrassment. I saw them on the north Wales line from 1963, and perhaps earlier, but not necessarily working the Irish Mails seeing as some terminated in Rhyl. I saw them running light or in a train of locos running to Llandudno Junction for servicing.

 

[oldravendale]

That's a good point, Larry. In fact I seem to remember a suggestion that the Duchesses were suggested to go to the Southern which was a silly idea because they had their own oversupply of pacifics which, whether you like them or not, were always said to be good engines. The Southern railwaymen probably wouldn't have taken kindly to having a "foreign" engine foisted on them. In fact, by the mid 1960s - in fact before then - every region was oversupplied with large passenger engines.

One of the regular locos on locals from Marylebone or on the Met trains from Rickmansworth was Fairburn 2-6-4T 42251. It was a Neasden resident from January 1955, moving to Woodford Halse on closure of Neasden in June 1962, then Bangor, Chester, Lostock Hall, Tebay and finally Low Moor in May 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, by the end of April 1968. (Rail UK).



46127 Old Contemptibles on the 6.50 pm Euston to Birmingham at Northwick Park on 30th May1962. This is a loco which has graced these pages previously in post #2592. In April 1962 46127 was a Crewe North engine, moving to Carlisle Upperby in early May where it was withdrawn in December. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in early May 1963. (Rail UK).

This loco is also the subject of a long stalled build of mine. Those who've grown long grey beards may remember it!



Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland is here on the down Northern Irishman reputedly at South Kenton on 29th May 1962 but this looks more like Headstone Lane to me. The loco had been allocated to Crewe North since July 1959 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

In fact I seem to remember a suggestion that the Duchesses were suggested to go to the Southern which was a silly idea because they had their own oversupply of pacifics which, whether you like them or not, were always said to be good engines. The Southern railwaymen probably wouldn't have taken kindly to having a "foreign" engine foisted on them.

Sounds like a 1st April statement....

It would have been very unlikely anyway as the Coronations were heavier (and longer) than the Bulleid Pacifics - 161 long tons as opposed to 99 long tons (Merchant Navy). The BR(S) Civil Engineer would have ruled them out immediately as the SR had some quite severe weight restrictions over certain mainline routes. Added to which BR(S) were already forging ahead with their own electrification schemes.

 

[LarryG]

The Southern Region railwaymen, and indeed those on the Western and the Eastern, were probably used to LM footplates seeing as LMS products were all over Britain.