mickoo
Western Thunderer
That one at £12.95 (Martin Bott) could be mine I sold to them a short while ago, part of my collection thinning process, they took about 30 of my UK books, the rest went in the bin.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Number 11 it is Mick! I used to pop into the WHS opposite almost daily for fags and mags, while a fair number of books in my own library came from the other shop on platform 9. They always seemed to have a good selection of railway and other transport subjects in that one.
Pete.
Pete.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'm actually running out of space as well, Mick. So far it's not stopped me buying more books, although the lack of exhibitions has been the major incentive. A few years ago I had a good cull so may be will have to do it again. One or two of them I wish I'd never sold........
I really don't know where to start as, one way or another, most of them have received use.
Brian
I really don't know where to start as, one way or another, most of them have received use.
Brian
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian, my interests do change but the recent one has been the biggest, normally I just get rid of books I've not read for a long time, three to five years but this time around it was an active clearing of a lot of UK orientated stuff. I've kept all the good steam stuff, Irwell Press, Yeadons etc but it was mostly modern or coffee table stuff that went.
For example a couple of class 47 books went right in the bin, they usually sell for a £5 or less and by the time you've packed it up and added postage it's just not a viable proposition, then Ebay and Paypal take their cut.
They were from the 80's and to be frank pretty poor if you're really objective, besides I've nearly 2000 class 47 images off the web, most far better than poorly printed small images in books.
I never regret selling anything, at the time it was clearly the right decision, hindsight is not always a good thing.
For example a couple of class 47 books went right in the bin, they usually sell for a £5 or less and by the time you've packed it up and added postage it's just not a viable proposition, then Ebay and Paypal take their cut.
They were from the 80's and to be frank pretty poor if you're really objective, besides I've nearly 2000 class 47 images off the web, most far better than poorly printed small images in books.
I never regret selling anything, at the time it was clearly the right decision, hindsight is not always a good thing.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
To be fair, I was always walking the other way to catch the train, arrivals from Norwich were on 10 in diesel days. It was the lattice bridge and cubbyhole down to LT that I remember the most.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
With apologies to Brian if this is getting off topic but there is conversation at the moment on the GER Soc. forum about 'Light Freight' being unloaded at Liverpool St, probably palletised and the lack of suitable stock to handle it !
What happened to British Railways
Col.
What happened to British Railways
Col.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Double apologies to Brian so I'll make it short. Back in my spotting days 308/2 had a MLV in the middle, primarily for the Tilbury Riverside services, probably designed back in the 60's for liner traffic I presume. I dimly recall them going over to the western side and used at night on Royal Mail trains to Chingford.With apologies to Brian if this is getting off topic but there is conversation at the moment on the GER Soc. forum about 'Light Freight' being unloaded at Liverpool St, probably palletised and the lack of suitable stock to handle it !
What happened to British Railways
Col.
As an aside, the new (back in the 80's) fleet of BREL designed units, 313, 315 etc had door ways and open plan areas designed to accept BRUTE trolleys. Class 313 were used overnight to bring loaded BRUTES down from Stevenage and Hitchin with Royal Mail staff and security, Platform 11 was always rammed with BRUTES, mostly empties and there was one train at least around mid morning that left Kings X rammed full of empty BRUTES back to the sorting offices.
I don't think the GE used BREL units, Norwich and Ipswich were served by two, maybe three TPO mail trains which also stopped at Colchester and Chelmsford then onto Liverpool Street, they always went to Platform 10 (I think) where the mail chute lead directly from the platform down to the PO railway below, I think there may have been one over on the east side, Platfrom 18 for Southend trains? Most of our stuff at Ipswich was hand balled right off the platform/or right out the back of the van and into the GUV, at LS they had a conveyor I think that led directly to the chute.
Kings Cross didn't have a PO tube stop, it was only walking distance from Mount Pleasant (MP) so it was driven over in vans, MP was the hub for the PO tube, massive sorting office, their canteen was bigger than our sorting floor in Ipswich.
PO tube engineer apprenticeship passing out was to be 'sacked up', dropped down the tube from the sorting office or main line station into a mini york (small brute loaded onto the train) and sent non stop to the end. All the PO tube apprentices I went to college with carried a knife, to cut the sack open, they didn't mind the mini york ride, but in the sack was too much.
I still vividly remember my trip around Liverpool Street PO tube station and the workshops at Mount Pleasant, LS was a school trip, MP was a few years later whilst working for the PO on one of our nights out in the city on a training course.
Crikey, that's a 37 yr old memory rush I hadn't expected this afternoon
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Mick and Col, and anyone else with an interest in contributing - (how else would we have seen Pete's amazing and evocative picture)? - please keep these reminiscences and comments coming on this thread. It brings stuff to life! I very much hope that there will be similar comments and meanderings as Tim's photos appear.
Your comments are somewhat concerning, aren't they Col? It seems that the rules about what can and can't be done are so rigid now that opportunities are missed. And don't get me started about bicycles on commuter trains with, of course, no proper guard's accommodation...... Sorry, train manager's accommodation.
Brian
Your comments are somewhat concerning, aren't they Col? It seems that the rules about what can and can't be done are so rigid now that opportunities are missed. And don't get me started about bicycles on commuter trains with, of course, no proper guard's accommodation...... Sorry, train manager's accommodation.
Brian
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Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
I'm very much looking forward to further photo's Brian especially as they seem to be on my and a few other's home turf .
From my own personal point of view anything Eastern region is gratefully received and enjoyed. It seems to me that the railway world, and especially the model railway world is saturated with the bloody GWR ! so these photo's are refreshing.
Liverpool St. is to some extent us East End Boys 'Paddington' why does it makes me cringe to say that
.
The comments about freight into Liverpool St. on the GER forum seem to be assuming someone like Amazon getting parcels into the City and being delivered around by E bikes & E vans
not keen on Amazon.
Col.
. From my own personal point of view anything Eastern region is gratefully received and enjoyed. It seems to me that the railway world, and especially the model railway world is saturated with the bloody GWR ! so these photo's are refreshing.
Liverpool St. is to some extent us East End Boys 'Paddington' why does it makes me cringe to say that
.The comments about freight into Liverpool St. on the GER forum seem to be assuming someone like Amazon getting parcels into the City and being delivered around by E bikes & E vans
not keen on Amazon. Col.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Col.
Tim lived in Hornsey for much of his early, though not earliest, life and where I first met him so BR (ER) was home. Probably half these images are ER. However, he was widely travelled so his photos go to Scotland, London Sheds, SR at the end of steam and Ireland too. A little GWR thrown in. It'll be an interesting journey.
Brian
Tim lived in Hornsey for much of his early, though not earliest, life and where I first met him so BR (ER) was home. Probably half these images are ER. However, he was widely travelled so his photos go to Scotland, London Sheds, SR at the end of steam and Ireland too. A little GWR thrown in. It'll be an interesting journey.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's the next and it's questionable whether it's been worth the hours spent on it. It was covered in tiny digs, each of which had to be spotted out. Neither is it by any measure of means anywhere near the best, however remember that this was taken in 1954 at which time Tim must have been knee high to a grasshopper and using very basic equipment. These are his very earliest pictures and it's interesting to watch how his technique gradually improves. I've just been scanning some negs from 1957, again on not very advanced equipment, and they are significantly more skilled. Anyway, for what it's worth here's "Britannia" No 70011, "Hotspur", at Witham in 1954. I suggest that it's really not worth putting a copyright stamp on this one.
Britannia 70011 Hotspur at Witham in 1954. It went to Norwich Thorpe when new in May 1951 then March in October 1961. In December 1963 it went to Carlisle Kingmoor, Upperby in February 1965 and back to Kingmoor in December 1966 where it was withdrawn almost exactly a year later. It was scrapped at J McWilliams Shettleston in March 1968.
That station lamp is worth a second look, though, as are the water column and signal. The chap at the platform end looks as though his trousers are wrapped around his lower legs, probably to prevent the ferrets from escaping, rats from gaining access or perhaps it's just cycle clips.
Brian
Britannia 70011 Hotspur at Witham in 1954. It went to Norwich Thorpe when new in May 1951 then March in October 1961. In December 1963 it went to Carlisle Kingmoor, Upperby in February 1965 and back to Kingmoor in December 1966 where it was withdrawn almost exactly a year later. It was scrapped at J McWilliams Shettleston in March 1968.
That station lamp is worth a second look, though, as are the water column and signal. The chap at the platform end looks as though his trousers are wrapped around his lower legs, probably to prevent the ferrets from escaping, rats from gaining access or perhaps it's just cycle clips.
Brian
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Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Worth it for the detail it shows, Brian.
Didn't everyone where cycle clips in those days
Col.
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Great signal Brian, might be just the thing for Love Lane or its offspring,
all the best
Tim
all the best
Tim
AndyB
Western Thunderer
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Photographs from 'amateur' collections are generally more interesting than those taken by the well known railway photographers as they tend to capture interesting detail around the subject whether intentionally or unintentionally. As highlighted there's the water column, the fluted cast iron gas lamp post and the underslung signals.
This is a nice photo as there's more going on - the young lad looking back at the departing train, the driver/fireman apparently looking back at the photographer. The lad also has a camera and did he photograph the locomotive as well?
And yes, he is wearing bicycle clips - you can see them and they are in line with the top collar of the water column operating wheel.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
There's a road bridge just to the south of Witham station and virtually where the platforms start, it obscures pretty much all of the station from the south, many expresses didn't stop here and speeds were easily 70+ more so with the Brits on the falling grade from Chelmsford, hence the cantilevered signal to increase visibility.
Rough track plan.
Witham Station by Beechwood Photography, on Flickr
London to the right, Norwich to the left, the up and down platforms are incorrectly annotated.
A modern (80's) view showing the gradient, note the road bridge was rebuilt for the 25Kv OHLE with concrete beams, originally it was brick arched. The platforms were also extended to take 12 car units.
308140 09.43 London Liverpool Street-Clacton. Witham station 31 May 1985 302222 on rear. by Michael J. COLLINS, on Flickr
Other than the road bridge and some new canopy edging on the down side, most of Witham station has survived the 25Kv rebuild.
Rolling back in time to the original station we can see the grade, original road bridge and station canopy, all of which make sighting of the down main signal difficult.
essex - ger station witham by John Law, on Flickr
I believe the speed limit through here is now 100 mph.
The slight curve to the right at the country end would of made the signal a bit harder to see, possibly obscured by the engine boiler, the cantilever may be to aid sighting by the fireman under the bridge arch.
A clearer (subjective) view of the signal, care of Wiki common users agreement. It shows how far out the signal is cantilevered, almost over or past the track centre line.
Even on the slight rising grade from Kelvedon, the B1 looks to be going very well indeed.
The signal to the left is for the divergence to the down sidings I presume, there being no cross over from the down main to the Braintree branch to the left.
Rough track plan.
Witham Station by Beechwood Photography, on FlickrLondon to the right, Norwich to the left, the up and down platforms are incorrectly annotated.
A modern (80's) view showing the gradient, note the road bridge was rebuilt for the 25Kv OHLE with concrete beams, originally it was brick arched. The platforms were also extended to take 12 car units.
308140 09.43 London Liverpool Street-Clacton. Witham station 31 May 1985 302222 on rear. by Michael J. COLLINS, on FlickrOther than the road bridge and some new canopy edging on the down side, most of Witham station has survived the 25Kv rebuild.
Rolling back in time to the original station we can see the grade, original road bridge and station canopy, all of which make sighting of the down main signal difficult.
essex - ger station witham by John Law, on FlickrI believe the speed limit through here is now 100 mph.
The slight curve to the right at the country end would of made the signal a bit harder to see, possibly obscured by the engine boiler, the cantilever may be to aid sighting by the fireman under the bridge arch.
A clearer (subjective) view of the signal, care of Wiki common users agreement. It shows how far out the signal is cantilevered, almost over or past the track centre line.
Even on the slight rising grade from Kelvedon, the B1 looks to be going very well indeed.
The signal to the left is for the divergence to the down sidings I presume, there being no cross over from the down main to the Braintree branch to the left.
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Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Mick
The left hand arm is a full size one so not applicable to movements towards a sidng, it is the signal controlling the entrance to the down loop, installed I suspect after Witham East was abolished in 1926. I have a diagram for the power box after resignalling in 1960 which shows the down loop but no down sidings, they may have gone under the mod scheme.
Regards
Martin
The left hand arm is a full size one so not applicable to movements towards a sidng, it is the signal controlling the entrance to the down loop, installed I suspect after Witham East was abolished in 1926. I have a diagram for the power box after resignalling in 1960 which shows the down loop but no down sidings, they may have gone under the mod scheme.
Regards
Martin
mickoo
Western Thunderer
You're right, I mistook the drawing for a siding, it's clearly a loop, my bad.
There may have been sidings off there at some point, but aerial views do not seem to show an area that could of been, there's usually some trace left even after all this time, a faint fence line or earthworks, there's nothing there today to indicate any down sidings that I can see.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
This 'Nuke' train is sitting in the down loop just North of Witham. I took this in '96. The up loop still existed then also.
The outer up and down platform roads lead into these loops today Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland ....
Col.
The outer up and down platform roads lead into these loops today Explore georeferenced maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland ....
Col.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Next, also at Witham. I'll not bore you with the trials of cleaning it up! The main problem with this is under exposure and low contrast. Each have been addressed. Thanks to Mick for the watermarking.
Tim describes this as Witham Down Slow April 1956. The loco is 61648 which, by happy coincidence is B17/6 4-6-0 "Arsenal", Tim's football team. This had been a Colchester engine since June 1956 and became a Stratford engine in October 1956 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of December 1958. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported the loco to be complete and with nameplates at Doncaster in May 1959 where it was scrapped.
Brian
Tim describes this as Witham Down Slow April 1956. The loco is 61648 which, by happy coincidence is B17/6 4-6-0 "Arsenal", Tim's football team. This had been a Colchester engine since June 1956 and became a Stratford engine in October 1956 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of December 1958. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported the loco to be complete and with nameplates at Doncaster in May 1959 where it was scrapped.
Brian
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