Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

The 5-plank open adjacent to 84024 in img3541 is a bit unusual in that it is an ex-private owner wagon still bearing much of its former owner's livery. Though I can't be certain of its identity, it bears a striking resemblance to the original livery carried by the 5-plank wagons of I.C.I Lime Ltd of Buxton. The drop door on these wagons was secured in the closed position by a metal bar running across the lower edge of the topmost door plank and engaging with lugs projecting from the side knee washer plates; the right-hand extremity of such a horizontal bar and one of the washer plates can be made out at the left hand edge of the picture. There seem to have been at least 120 such wagons in this I.C.I. Fleet, further details being given at pages 76-77 in Vol.5 of David Larkin's 'Acquired Wagons of British Railways' series.

 

[AJC]

The 5-plank open adjacent to 84024 in img3541 is a bit unusual in that it is an ex-private owner wagon still bearing much of its former owner's livery. Though I can't be certain of its identity, it bears a striking resemblance to the original livery carried by the 5-plank wagons of I.C.I Lime Ltd of Buxton. The drop door on these wagons was secured in the closed position by a metal bar running across the lower edge of the topmost door plank and engaging with lugs projecting from the side knee washer plates; the right-hand extremity of such a horizontal bar and one of the washer plates can be made out at the left hand edge of the picture. There seem to have been at least 120 such wagons in this I.C.I. Fleet, further details being given at pages 76-77 in Vol.5 of David Larkin's 'Acquired Wagons of British Railways' series.

Good spot! I don't think it would be an ICI vehicle as they escaped pooling and were well recorded in service with ICI into the '60s - though appearing in Larkin's Acquired Wagons suggests a gap in my understanding! 'Ltd.' is not very helpful in narrowing it down, however. @PhilH has some truly excellent pictures of them (when I can find where they are posted I'll add the link). A nice example of the Gill Sans stencil on the tare weight, too.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Some bits and pieces,

84024 according to the RCTS was allocated to Crewe Works in P7/62 not Aug 63.

I’m rather clutching at straws here but the A4 at Hornsey in #3537 looks as though the corridor tender might have a cut away rear. Look along the top of the tender side and there is a small darker section which I think is the end of the leading carriage. If so, there were three locomotives with corridor tenders modified to allow the water cranes at Euston to fill them during the 1948 locomotive exchanges and these were coupled to 60022 Mallard, 60033 Seagull and 60034 Lord Faringdon. By Aug 1958 the tender from Mallard had been attached to 60029 Woodcock however the other two still had them, and as a stretched best guess I think points it towards being one of these three. They were all allocated to Kings X at the time which adds a limited veracity. The train looks like a Peterborough local, Class 2 lamp and 5 vehicles.

The only visual difference between a N1 and a U1 is the presence of small splashers on the latter to accommodate the 6” bigger driving wheels. I’m afraid the grain rather deters me from identity but an N1 feels more likely on an inter regional freight from either Norwood or Hither Green I suspect. I note Rogers post in which he agrees with me.

The locomotive in #3536 is rather interesting,

Are you sure that's a B1 at Hornsey? Looks to have the wrong type of tender for that class. A B2 perhaps, of which 6 had NE type tenders instead of the standard LNER type.

I would agree, I can’t find a pic of a B1 with anything other than a flush sided Group Standard tender and a B2 is really the only other choice. In 1958 all ten of them were allocated to Cambridge and could justifiably be seen at Kings X, seven had ex NE tenders, 2 had tenders from P1s which had been withdrawn in 1945, and 1 had a GS tender. The last three had flush sided tenders and can I think be discounted.

That's not an NE tender - they had visible coal rails. But B2s seem to have had a step-sided type of unknown (to me) provenance too.

Yes they did have coal rails however two of the B2 tenders had the rails replaced by BR in 1957 with flush sided plating, numbers 61614 and 61644. The picture looks very like the loco has a Westinghouse pump on the smokebox side and of the two possibilities, 61614 wasn’t so fitted and 61644 was so I’m pretty certain that’s the B2 in #3536.

Martin

 

[PhilH]

Good spot! I don't think it would be an ICI vehicle as they escaped pooling and were well recorded in service with ICI into the '60s - though appearing in Larkin's Acquired Wagons suggests a gap in my understanding! 'Ltd.' is not very helpful in narrowing it down, however. @PhilH has some truly excellent pictures of them (when I can find where they are posted I'll add the link). A nice example of the Gill Sans stencil on the tare weight, too.

Adam

Adam,
I'll save you the trouble, it was just the one photo taken at Long Sidings, Peak Forest. They are labelled Non Pool and the lettering on these examples is quite different to the one with 84024.

​

 

[AJC]

Adam,
I'll save you the trouble, it was just the one photo taken at Long Sidings, Peak Forest. They are labelled Non Pool and the lettering on these examples is quite different to the one with 84024.

View attachment 229136​

Thank you, Phil - I can't remember whether Larkin had his own pictures taken at Hoo Junction, or whether he looked to Don Rowland for the images he's reproduced in the books of his that are in my library. I'll have to check, but that's the livery I recognise from pictures.

Adam

 

[John Palmer]

Following up with some further information derived from David Larkin's book:

The I.C.I. (Lime) Ltd fleet of 12 ton opens were built by Gloucester RCW and bore fleet numbers in the range between 3000 and 3387. These were registered LMS 149208 to LMS 149585 between July and December 1937. That makes a total of 377 wagons, as against the 388 that would be suggested by the fleet number range. Many, but not all, had removeable tilt bars, as illustrated in @PhilH's photograph, and those that were not so equipped were requisitioned when 'Pooling' took place in 1939. The requisitioned wagons were taken into the P-prefixed fleet following Nationalisation and their numbers (with original fleet numbers) are listed in David's book.

The wagons shown in @PhilH's photograph are carrying what David describes as their post-war livery, whilst the wagon adjacent to 84024 bears a livery with strong similarities to what he states to be the original I.C.I. Livery.

The original livery of the I.C.I. wagons included 'Buxton' across the door beneath 'I.C.I. (Lime) Ltd', the 'B' and the 'N' of 'Buxton' being applied to the wagon sides in positions immediately adjacent to the door. I think I detect the 'N' in this position in the picture showing 84024. In addition I note the presence of a sheet securing ring adjacent to the 'N' and the eyelet for a second such ring adjacent to the corner plate; these correspond to the like fittings to be seen in @PhilH's photograph.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Two photos here featuring B1 61247 Lord Burghley. The first also has B2 61615 Culford Hall backing in to Kings Cross in July 1958. The B1 then left on a Cambridge Train. 61247 was based at Doncaster from new in October 1947 and moved only once, to Colwick, in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It ended up at Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in June 1962. (BR Database). The B2 belonged to Cambridge from November 1956 and was withdrawn from there in February 1959. It was seen intact at Stratford Works on 11th February 1959 (RO) and was scrapped later the same month. (BR Database)

View attachment 228657



Brian

The tender on B2 61615 Culford Hall, which she received when rebuilt, was from condemned P1 2-8-2 No. 2393. ( Reference 'The Power of the B17's & B2's by Peter Swinger.)
B1 61247's tender is of coarse a group standard.

Col.

 

[Scanlon]

Brian,

The 3 cylinder mogul in the background of 8F 48716 is a U1. The tender is a 4000 gallon tender with the tops of the sides inclined inwards. All the N1's had 4000 gallon tenders with upright sides. Hopefully these photos of my models will assist identification.

N1 31880 with straight sided 4000 gallon tender. David Andrews kit.

U1 31906 with standard 4000 gallon tender. A mongrel, started life as an ACE kit now with Sans Pareil rods and valve gear, David Andrews castings and tender.

Roger

 

[Martin Shaw]

Roger
Well I don't think I was ever conciously aware of that difference and now you have pointed it out I would agree. In my defence, in 1958 five of the six N1s were at Hither Green so my guess at their appearance on an inter regional at Willesden is highly probable, he said hiding his embarrassment, especially since the rest of my post is witterings about LNER tenders.

Very nice models whatever my mistakes.
Martin

 

[Scanlon]

Hi Martin,

No need to be embarrassed. I am staggered at the details some of us come up with to amplify Brian's introductions to Tim's exceptional photos.

Thanks for the compliment about my models, I have 8 Maunsell moguls; I'm a bit of a fan!!!!!

Roger

 

[Roger Pound]

Duly noted thank you. Like Martin, I was unaware of this fact. Delightful models.

Roger

 

[Barry37]

Thank you, Phil - I can't remember whether Larkin had his own pictures taken at Hoo Junction, or whether he looked to Don Rowland for the images he's reproduced in the books of his that are in my library. I'll have to check, but that's the livery I recognise from pictures.

Adam

David Larkin took quite a lot* of photos at Hoo Junction, at least in the 1970s, as it was quite close to where he lived at the time, in Cliffe. He worked as a signalman at Loughborough Junction in south London, where others of his photos were taken.
* I had a set of his photo lists, running to many double-sided duplicated pages, which helpfully described the livery of particular wagons.

 

[Barry37]

Brian,

The 3 cylinder mogul in the background of 8F 48716 is a U1. The tender is a 4000 gallon tender with the tops of the sides inclined inwards. All the N1's had 4000 gallon tenders with upright sides. Hopefully these photos of my models will assist identification.
View attachment 229178
N1 31880 with straight sided 4000 gallon tender. David Andrews kit.
View attachment 229179
U1 31906 with standard 4000 gallon tender. A mongrel, started life as an ACE kit now with Sans Pareil rods and valve gear, David Andrews castings and tender.

Roger

I wonder if the sloped-in tender sides, and possibly narrower cab of the U1s, was to make them fit through the "Hastings' gauge" tunnels, without getting scraped or stuck? Descriptions suggest that the Hastings line was their intended use, when designed.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks for the compliment about my models, I have 8 Maunsell moguls; I'm a bit of a fan!!!!!

Is that one of each variant including tender variants....? N1, N (SR) and N (SECR), U1, U (SR newbuild with shallow splashers), U (rebuilt River with larger splashers), left hand drive, right hand drive?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I wonder if the sloped-in tender sides, and possibly narrower cab of the U1s, was to make them fit through the "Hastings' gauge" tunnels, without getting scraped or stuck? Descriptions suggest that the Hastings line was their intended use, when designed.

The N1s were certainly designed for the Hastings gauge which makes sense for a U1 to have been designed to do so.

 

[Scanlon]

Hi Dave,
Certainly have, even got another U in flatpack mode for now! Here are some of my locos on 82G

Only 4 here, since joined by the N1, another U, rebuilt River U and an early N. Note a Brighton K to the fore.

Apologies Brian for going off on a tangent!

 

[oldravendale]

Apologies for the time between postings. I girded my loins and spent a goodly few hours pulling together all the details of the generous supplementary postings in to various files linked by img number to the photos. Since my last posting:

Thanks, Adam @AJC for unlocking the secrets of the wagons behind the Liverpool Street pilot. Then John @John Palmer for starting to build up more info about the wagon in the photo of 84024, amplified by the info from Adam @AJC and Phil @PhilH. Thanks too to Roger @Roger Pound for kicking off the identification of the Southern 2-6-0 trying to hide in the picture of the 8F and then Roger @Scanlon (I remember the K well of course, Roger,) Your post is far from being at an undesirable tangent and how I agree about the fount of knowledge we are so fortunate to have on WT. And Dave @Yorkshire Dave , as ever your contributions are highly valued as is yours, Barry @Barry37 .

Thanks to you Martin @Martin Shaw for yours regarding the Standard 2MT tank, the N1/U1, the A4 and the B1/B2 for which I also thank Col @Eastsidepilot.

Perhaps not the greatest photo but what a find! I’d not been aware of this previously and had heard nothing of it. This is D Class 4-4-0 31501 at Ramsgate as a stationary boiler on 17th August 1958. The final shed when in capital stock was Gillingham and that was in January 1952. (SLS). The SLS don’t advise a withdrawal date but BR Database proposes May 1953 and a scrap date in the same month. However this can’t be correct as it was seen as a stationary boiler on 3rd October 1959 at Ramsgate as reported on Shed Bash UK Ramsgate and Margate 1945 - 1961 and had been reported there from 1st September 1957 although not before. What happened to it between withdrawal in 1953 and 1957 is anyone’s guess although I suppose it may have been so unremarkable at the time that it wasn’t recorded. Despite searches I can’t find a confirmed scrapping date. It seems likely that it was scrapped on site or it may have got to Ashford I suppose.



N Class 2-6-0 31855 and D1 Class 4-4-0 31743 on shed at Ramsgate on 17th August 1958. 31855 was at Hither Green from June 1954 when it moved to Exmouth Junction in February 1961 and withdrawal in September 1964. (SLS). It was seen at Swansea East Dock on 3rd January 1965 (LCGB) awaiting transfer to Birds where WHTS show it as scrapped. BR Database propose a date of December 1964.

31743 was a Stewarts Lane engine from June 1953 and moved to Bricklayers Arms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in March 1960. It went to Ashford Works where it was cut up week ending 9th April 1960. (RO). BR Database confirm the month of scrapping.



U1 2-6-0 31890 on the turntable at Ramsgate shed with the coaling tower in the background on 17th August 1958. This was in and out of store at Bricklayers Arms from June 1951 until June 1959 when in was reallocated to Brighton. It went to Three Bridges in June 1962 before going back to Brighton in December the same year where it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). The SLS report it at Eastleigh MPD “awaiting works or scrap” on 11th September 1963 and BR Database propose a scrapping date of October the same year.

I'd not noticed that uplift of the footplate over the cylinders until reviewing this picture just now. Was this simply a variation within the class as your model of a U1, Roger, doesn't show it?



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
31501 Both Bradley (RCTS) and Longworth have a withdrawal date of 3/53 and I suspect it became the stationary boiler at Ramsgate more or less immediately otherwise boiler certification would have run out. I think it would have lasted until Ramsgate shed closed to steam 6/59 although stabling continued until 12/60 as a sub shed of Ashford.

31890 This was a rebuild from 3 cylinder River class A890 River Frome in 1928 after the Sevenoaks accident that put paid to 2-6-4 tank locomotives otherwise so successful on the LMS/R and subsequently on the SR somewhat ironically. The running plate has the raised section over the cylinders to accommodate the Holcroft conjugated valve gear that wasn't used on the rest of the class. It also had a straight sided 3500 gallon N1 tender which rather singles it out as non standard for the class. Thank you Roger S.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Speaking of Maunsell Moguls and Ramsgate these two were taken by my grandfather. Both are scanned from 120 roll film contact prints in an album and have suffered over the last 80 years or so. I have started to clean them up a bit but there's still more to be done.

The first one is at the back of the engine shed and probably taken in the early 1930s. Both are devoid of smoke deflectors and front steps introduced in the mid 1930s.



The second one is also taken at Ramsgate but on closer inspection the number appears to be centrally in the tender implying this may still be in its SECR wartime grey livery. I'm beginning to wonder whether my grandfather took this photo earlier in the mid to late 1920s at the ex SER Ramsgate Town station.

 

[Scanlon]

Brian,
Martin managed to answer you first. Interestingly this loco retained a 3500 gallon tender whereas all the others had 4000 gallon tenders.
Roger