Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

It's 47 134, I can read the number , but if I couldn't, 134 was a long term WR engine (based at Landore, Swansea on this date).

47 154 (paper allocation) on the other hand, never existed, it went straight from pre TOPS D1747 to 546 after ETH conversion, which placed it in the 47/4 group.

 

[Deano747]

Excellent info, Simon, thanks for the confirmation, Graham, and some more lovely personal memories and thoughts from David. Thanks to you all.

There now follows the first of two diversions. As far as I'm aware Tim has no particular interest in aircraft, either military or civil. but these appeared in a 35mm railway film and as I know there is more than a smattering of interest in things aerial, and as I guess I can divert my own thread if I want to here are the photos. Tim's brother in law and sister lived in Cranford, next door and under the flight path to Heathrow, and I suspect these were taken from the back garden. From their position within the film strips I'll guess at these being about 1976 (actually, I suspect this date is more accurate than the proposed 1980s for the railway photos at Old Oak and Willesden above). There may be a clue in the "British Airways" rather than "BOAC" and "BEA" branding. I've taken a guess on the aircraft types for those I think I recognise, but confirmation of those and suggestions for those I don't recognise will be appreciated.

Firstly I believe this to be a British Airways Vickers Viscount.

View attachment 140897

Next a Boeing 747, coming and going, again of British Airways. It has the BOAC logo on the tail. Was this used initially as the logo for BA?

View attachment 140898
View attachment 140899

Another British Airways. Is this a Tri Star?

View attachment 140900

I freely admit to not knowing this one or the airline.

View attachment 140901

I don't know this one either but will take a punt at a BA Boeing 707.

View attachment 140902

Finally is this an Irish Boeing 737?

View attachment 140903

Brian

I'm happy to be corrected, but born and bred near both LHR and LGW:-
Pic 1 A very early BA Viscount, probably from the British European Airways (BEA) fleet, who merged/ take over from BOAC to form British Airways.
Pic 2 Looks likely a 747-100 of BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation)
Pic 3 Same
Pic 4 Lockheed Tristar of British Airtours. Charter division of BEA/ BA
Pic 5 Dave (Daily) nailed this one - Boeing 727, Royal Air Maroc
Pic 6 BOAC Boeing 707
Pic 7 Air Lingus (Irish) Boeing 737-100

Regards, Rob.

 

[Mike W]

The car auction was held by Mike Carter and I attended that particular sale as I remember the Rolls Royce at the left in the overall view - no radiator grille, lots of bits missing or loose, but cheap. There can't have been another sale with a car like that. I went for a rare Reliant Sabre convertible with a Ford Zephyr engine, but didn't buy it in the end.

Mike

 

[Mike W]

I could be wrong because Mike Carter had more than one sale that year, but I think this one was on 27th October 1976.

One car sold that day was a rare Jensen which I bought 20 years later after it had been to the USA and back, but as it doesn't seem to be in your pictures I'll say no more. There were a lot of Rolls Royce, a Vauxhall as you say and to the left of that a bullnose Morris (lot 104), with a very early MG to the left of that. I can also see at least one Bentley, plus an AC, Allard, Lagonda LG45, 1920s Alvis, Jaguar E type and XK120, Sunbeam Alpine (or Tiger), Jensen C-V8 ... HG 9418 is a Riley and the Allard is to the left of it.

Mike

 

[daifly]

Sorry to disagree Rob, but Pic 4 is a British Airways Tristar. British Airtours were operating B707s until the early 80s. I transferred to Gatwick to fly the Airtours Tristars when they were newly added to the fleet in 1984 replacing the B707s.
In 1976, of course, BOAC no longer existed. The introduction of the new Negus corporate livery took a number of years to be applied to the entire fleet but, in most cases, BEA and BOAC branding was quickly replaced by ‘British Airways’ as seen on the B747-136 photos.
The Viscount is one of the later 800 series - all of the early 700s had been withdrawn by 1974. It may very well be 802 G-AOHR which was a Channel Division aircraft. The ‘Channel’ branding can just be made out.
Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Well, thank you all for so much info. In truth, as I know little about the subjects in hand, it's all grist to the mill. If there's one place on this planet where I'd find answers to any transport question it's here.

From the top: Adam, thanks for the info about the "50" and your reminiscences. We now have a pretty full picture.
Daves (Daifly and Yorkshire flavours). Very full info now for the RM. Wonderful stuff!
And Dave (Yorkshire), for the suggestion re the LT surface stock.
Mick - Thanks for confirming the identity of the 47 and for the history.
Rob and Dave. I hope that it'll be possible now to pick the bones out of the available aircraft data. Thanks for your time on this.
Finally Mike. I guess with your info and knowledge we can now be pretty certain about the date and the ID of many of the vehicles there.

All in all I'm delighted at the stimulation these photos have created - I was quite doubtful initially but any transport subject seems to create a little frisson of interest, and a bit of a diversion from the singularity of the railways is not such a bad idea now and again.

However, back to the main subject, continuing with "Paddington. 17th July 1977." Here is 253 026 again, now moored up at Paddington or perhaps making its final entry to the platform.



One coming, one going. I don't know the ID of the one that's leaving but the HST arriving is 253 020.



This class 50 can be identified as 50010. Originally D410 it was renumbered in January 1973 and was named Monarch at Laira in March 1978. It was withdrawn in September 1988 and eventually was cut up at Laira in May 1992.



Sorry - no identification of this 31 at Paddington. This may be typical of 31s, but is there a grill panel missing on the side of the loco? Perhaps they are meant to look like that.



Finally for today another 50 but no ID.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Yesterday and today, two views of the same HST unit - 253 026 - and different cleaning regimes of the unit number; the first photo shows a quick wipe with a greasy rag whilst the second view in the preceding post shows extreme fastidious behaviour to the point at which one has to ask about a potential removal / replacement scenario.

 

[Deano747]

Sorry to disagree Rob, but Pic 4 is a British Airways Tristar. British Airtours were operating B707s until the early 80s. I transferred to Gatwick to fly the Airtours Tristars when they were newly added to the fleet in 1984 replacing the B707s.
In 1976, of course, BOAC no longer existed. The introduction of the new Negus corporate livery took a number of years to be applied to the entire fleet but, in most cases, BEA and BOAC branding was quickly replaced by ‘British Airways’ as seen on the B747-136 photos.
The Viscount is one of the later 800 series - all of the early 700s had been withdrawn by 1974. It may very well be 802 G-AOHR which was a Channel Division aircraft. The ‘Channel’ branding can just be made out.
Dave

Quite correct, Dave. My mistake!
I was working for BCal back in those days; engineering division. (Apprenticeship began Sep 77)

Best regards, Rob.

 

[oldravendale]

Mike - Thanks for your comment about the HST. I'd not noticed that.

Also Rob - thanks for the clarification.

I had a word with Tim about the Ally Pally car auction on Thursday. He'd kept the original auction catalogue and has sent it to me. He's recorded prices against some of the sales which look really low but remembering the auction was 45 years ago inflation has to be factored in. The auction was on 20th February 1976, Mike W. All bar one of the vehicles is displaying its lot number quite prominently so I'll be able to ascribe full descriptions to each.

Anyway, continuing the "Paddington. 17th July 1977." theme here's a few more. The first one is, I think, 50 025 light engine travelling in to Paddington, I suspect. This became "Invincible" at Laira on 6th June 1978 and was condemned on 14th August 1989 after a derailment. It was cut up on 1st October at Old Oak by Vic Berry.


Next a somewhat blurred and possibly accidental shot of what would now be considered London Transport vintage stock. I hope Yorkshire Dave may be along in a minute to give chapter and verse.



50 012 nee D412 arriving at Paddington. This became "Benbow" at Laira on 3rd April 1978, was withdrawn on 16th January 1989 due to a main generator failure and was scrapped around July 1989 at Vic Berry (Leicester).



Yet another HST, this time 253 014 with two others lurking in the background, a trainspotter and parcels trolleys.



Finally another but unidentified 50, HST alongside.



Brian

 

[Overseer]

I like the Siphon G in the background of the 50010 and 50012 photos.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Next a somewhat blurred and possibly accidental shot of what would now be considered London Transport vintage stock.

It's CO/CP stock in platform 3 on a District line service at Edgware Road (Hammersmith and City, District and the then Circle line). The photo is looking east towards Baker Street. Edgware Road was (and still is) the terminus of the District line Wimbledon trains. District line services were Upminster - Ealing Broadway/Richmond and Edgware Road - Wimbledon. As I recall there were never Upminster - Wimbledon or Edgware Road - Ealing Broadway/Richmond services.

At the time of the photo the District line operated the last of the CO/CP and R stock until replaced by D78 stock while Circle line trains were formed of C69 and later C77 stock - the latter also used on the H&C Barking - Hammersmith services (C69 and C77 stock is identical). CO/CP stock disappeared from the Met around 16 years or so earlier with the introduction of the A60 and A62 stock.

The building in the background is Griffith House which was one of London Transport's training centres with medical facilities built around 1940. It later included their recruitment offices. Before the LT museum in Covent Garden, Griffith House used to house the London Transport shop which I remember visiting. Entry was entry via nondescript door next to the vehicular access shuttered doors on Marylebone Road and up a flight of stairs to the shop.

The footbridge seen in the photo accessed Griffith House from Mitcham Street and the junction of Cosway Street and Marylebone Road. The station is sandwiched between Marylebone Road, Chapel Street, Lisson Street and Mitcham Street. You may recall our visit to Acton open day a few years ago - on our walk from Marylebone we walked along Mitcham Street at the back of Edgware Road station.

 

[oldravendale]

Frazer - There are more coincidental Siphons in future photos. Quite when they'll come up is anyone's guess! At the moment I'm trying to improve a truly disastrous set of photos which appear to have come off the developing spiral (Tim often did his own developing) apart from being very underexposed. As a result they look as though they've been bunged in with other negs but unprotected so they have considerable physical damage and ungrained dirt. In many respects it's fortunate they were not simply destroyed as the first has proven to be eminently recoverable. I've dealt with the first - a rather nice photo of a Royal Scot at Willesden - but it's taken best part of four evenings while sat in front of the TV (nothing to see here, sir).

Dave - I simply could not have requested a better description. It builds up a complete picture in my mind's eye. Tim's full description for this series of photos is "Edgware Road, Paddington 17th July 1977 Hornsey 25th August 1977" and the reason for the Edgware Road bit of the description is now apparent. I also remember the visit to LT Acton really well - what a fantastic day out that was - but as you had me on leading reins I must admit to being less than totally concerned about my precise location. The bacon roll and coffee were very good, though.....

For today the last of the Paddington and the first of the Hornsey photos.

First an unidentified HST leaving Paddington - unless someone can work out the identity from the coach number. Frankly I don't know whether that's even possible!



Here's a pair of HSTs at Paddington. Clearly the nearest is W43034 - it may even be the vehicle in the photo above - although that doesn't help me to identify the set number.



Finally this rather nice one of Paddington from outside the station. Unidentified HST and two Class 50s in attendance. The train spotters and parcels trolleys make this the complete picture.



And so to Hornsey, Tim's home turf. These are dated 25th August 1977. I read this as 47410 - hopefully Mickoo will put that right if I'm misreading it. Tim's son, Richard, and a friend look on. If 47410 is correct, then it was previously D1509 a local Finsbury Park loco in 1977 and from where it was withdrawn in June 1987 going to Vic Berry at Leicester where it was scrapped at the beginning of February 1990.

I'll have to rescan this photo as, when checking for the loco ID I've noticed that there are Newtons Rings apparent.


Finally for today, a Deltic. I had no interest in these until I was converted one day on a still and frosty early morning at Stevenage awaiting a train to Leeds where I was working for the day. I heard what I thought was a helicopter getting closer and closer and this Deltic hammered through on a sleeper. I've loved that noise ever since.

However, I digress.

I read this as 55001, once D9001 and named in typical East Coast style St Paddy. This was also a Finsbury Park loco and was withdrawn at the beginning of January 1980 (so long ago? I feel really old!) and was scrapped at Doncaster in the following February.




Brian

 

[LarryG]

Knowing sweet nothing about Tube stock, the trains I travelled on in 1960 were red with what looked like clerestories and louvers.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Knowing sweet nothing about Tube stock, the trains I travelled on in 1960 were red with what looked like clerestories and louvers.

That would have been 1923 (also subsequent batches until 1934) Standard tube stock used on the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Northern lines.

LT Museum photo 1931 Standard Stock

I remember travelling on the 1923-34 Standard tube stock in the 1970's on the Isle of Wight (LT sold some Standard tube stock to BR(S) when they electrified the Ryde-Ventnor line on the IOW).

Inside the carriage there was an advertisment for the IOW Steam Railway with the catch line 'Travel as Grandpa did' and knowing we were riding in 1923/30 tube stock I turned to my dad and said with a chuckle - I already am travelling as Grandpa did .

Clerestory stock for the surface lines would have been G, K, L, M and N stock. These were later classified Q stock e.g. Q23, Q27, etc and formed into Q stock trains for District Line services. The Q stock and trains are a subject in their own right.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I read this as 55001, once D9001 and named in typical East Coast style St Paddy. This was also a Finsbury Park loco and was withdrawn at the beginning of January 1980 (so long ago? I feel really old!) and was scrapped at Doncaster in the following February.

I thought Finsbury Park painted their deltic cab window surrounds white around this time (mid 70's to the 80's).

 

[oldravendale]

With apologies for the short delay in service - I've taken a bit of time out of my WT schedule to update the info for each of the pictures, and there was quite a lot to add about the cars and a fair bit for the aircraft. Thanks to all for the additional info.

Once again, Dave, thanks for the short treatise on LT surface and tube stock. As far as Deltics are concerned I'm in no position to comment on those which Finsbury Park tarted up. I took the data accompanying the photo from BR Database again which is incredibly but not entirely reliable. It's a remarkable piece of work and one for which I'm incredibly grateful as it also reports on dates etc from the SLS which is often where apparent conflict occurs.

Anyway, for today we'll continue with half a dozen "Lineside. Hornsey. 1977." First an unidentified 47 at some distance it has to be said.



Next a view of the EMU sidings at Hornsey. I've no notion of the class of units here and even less of the specific unit IDs.





Here's a somewhat tighter framing of the photo above, although I'm not convinced it adds much.



Another and different 47. No details again. This is a different photo from the first - honest! The chap on the right hand side of the first frame has moved away.



This one makes a better picture, with a third unidentified 47 and two small spotters, one of whom is Tim's son.



This one is, to my jaundiced eye, a bit more interesting with an 08, in this case 08544 either shunting or working the ECS for a sleeper. This was once D3708 and at the time was another on Finsbury Park's allocation. It was withdrawn in July 1992 and cut up at Gwent Demolition (Margam) at the end of December 1994.




After a surfeit of 47s from an identical location I think a bit of ight relief might be in order and this is a rather more satisfying picture of a class 31, again unidentified.



All comments once again gratefully received.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing and, in fact, ending the theme "Lineside. Hornsey. 1977." at least for the moment. We'll be returning to more normal fare after a quick museum call, but that'll be in the next post. But all you blue diesel fanatics - don't lose heart. Tim took more elsewhere which will appear in due course.

To provide a bit of variety here's a Class 40. I can't positively identify it from this shot, but believe it's probably 40071 as seen in the next shot. There's no evidence of any passengers so I suspect it's an empty stock working.




This is definitely 40071, D271 in 1960. This one looks "original", ie no headcode boxes and corridor connection doors. By this time these may well have been welded shut. (Were the corridor connections on diesels ever used?) This loco was apparently allocated to Gateshead in 1975 and was withdrawn from there in September 1980. It was stored serviceable in December 1980 and broken up at Swindon Works in October 1981.



Another unidentified 47. This photo has real dynamism and it looks as though the loco is really hammering through.



08544 again, on a different train to that in the previous set of photos.


In case it's of interest I've also made a quick and dirty lighter blow up of the wagon behind the loco. I've nothing to help me identify this.



Another shot of those rather bland EMUs.



A Deltic from a distance - not much more to say!



Finally a close up portion of 47410, perhaps of interest for the bogie detail. This was the erstwhile D1509 which has been described in a previous shot. That data panel confirms the allocation as Finsbury Park.




Brian

 

[AJC]

In case it's of interest I've also made a quick and dirty lighter blow up of the wagon behind the loco. I've nothing to help me identify this.

Not a wagon, but non-passenger-carrying coaching stock, in this case, an SR Bogie B van, by then quite widespread in their use (i.e., not confined to the Southern) and - at a guess, looking at the rest of of the train - moving newspapers.

Adam

 

[mickoo]

I thought Finsbury Park painted their deltic cab window surrounds white around this time (mid 70's to the 80's).

They did but #1 & #20 were scrapped before it came in vogue at FP

1979 was the year the white windscreen surrounds appeared.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another shot of those rather bland EMUs.

Bland EMUs tut, tut.

They are dual voltage (25kV AC overhead/750V DC third rail) 3 car units developed from the prototype Southern Region 4-PEP (class 445) units. They were used on the GN lines WGC and Letchworth commuter services into KX and to Moorgate via Drayton Park on the GN & City line energised at 750V DC third rail - they were also tripcock fitted for working in these tunnels. This class and variants thereof formed the basis of inner suburban EMUs up and down the country.

According to GT Moody's Southern Electric book some wag designated PEP as Pack 'Em in Perpendicularly. Which today is the norm for all new surburban rolling stock.

When I used to commute from Luton to Farringdon in the 1990s on the 319s they had their 2+3 seating in the central saloon reduced to 2+2 to widen the aisle!