Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Mick
I think our diagrams are possibly at cross purposes, in mine the DM1 and DM2 merge to form the DM, it is the resignalling diagram from the 1930s so possibly not pertinent for 1960 but I can't imagine much changed before the end of steam. I'll look at this further tomorrow.

 

[mickoo]

Mine is from 1967.

Re-looking at the diagram, you're right, DM1 & 2 merge, not DM2 and DS



The diagram doesn't show the line down from DSLG to DS because it's controlled by Good & Mineral but interlocked with Copenhagen.



I suspect engines coming from Kings X up the DSLG ramp would hold at Point A just clear of traps 18 and 30, more as likely trap 18 line as there are two shunt signals there, the RH one possibly controlling entry to Top shed via crossover 47.

DM2 can only access top shed via DS and then crossover 29 and reversal at Copenhagen to reach position A, both DS and DM1 have a direct route to position A. I suspect position A will be marked on the full diagram as engine hold/release.

This is an odd one, 60119 is on the DS and could have taken switch 130 onto the DSLG; given the direction the engine is facing and the way the smoke is blowing it's clearly going up to Copenhagen to shunt back over 29 crossover. Behind the wall directly behind the engine is the DSLG ramp.



An overhead view shows the lead up crossover 29 to the hump, I've lots of images of engines coming down this to back into Kings Cross, maybe all light engine movements went this way and avoided the DSLG altogether.




You can see the two shunt signals up at top right controlling 47 and another, that triple switch and area behind seems to have been rationalized from the photo above in 1963 to the diagram in 1967. There doesn't look to be enough room to hold an engine at the top of the ramp to clear 47 and not foul the traps at position A and clear traps 18 and 30. I maybe wrong as the camera angle probably foreshortens the distances.

Images are from where ever over the years, ownership and copyright unknown, same for the diagrams.

This is an area I've been fascinated in for a long time, ideas to model it float periodically across my conciseness now and again.

 

[Martin Shaw]

There's not much I can add to Mick's rich explanation above except, his first diagram postdates when Copenhagen Junc was closed which was 17/12/67, presumably access to Top Shed was less needed by then. I have found a diagram of Copenhagen Junc just pre closure when it was essentially a stop signal on each of the down slow and fast lines, no connections at all. The diagram of Goods and Mineral, closed 29/09/75, is by John Hinson who runs the "Signalbox" website and was a signalman at Kings Cross at one time, he may have a diag for Copenhagen Junc.

I can't begin to accurately fathom out traffic flows but it is possible that transfer goods via the widened lines went along the DSLG, hence the name and all ER light engine movements were via the main lines, as Mick says a fascinating area.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Firstly, Dave. Thank you for explaining my school boy error. Previously, when I've used an illegal character I've received an automatic message to say it wouldn't work. That's why this one caught me out. There must be something in the deepest recesses of my mind which suggested the apostrophe could be a problem which is why I eventually removed it from the description. Promise I won't do it again.....

I couldn't agree more with Michael's post. The depth of knowledge and willingness to research and discuss options on this site is beyond compare. I'd particularly have liked Tim to see the posts these most recent photos at Kings Cross have engendered. His family will, however, see the benefit. They are so appreciative of all the background being built up around many of the photos.

Thank you, Mick for the info around the B17 and Liverpool Street. I consider myself properly educated now. It's strange, although possibly not surprising, that one's memory can so often be in error.

Thanks to you both, Mick and Martin for the discussion about loco movements. Why did we never take any notice at the time it was all laid out in front of us?

Today I'm kicking off by questioning the date I have against the photo of 60026 in post #1394 Tim gives the date as Summer 1959 but I suspect it may be somewhat earlier. To the left of the A4 is an N2, 69516. Details on BR Database advise it as a Kings Cross engine from April to June 1958 whence it went to Hornsey, an easy reach from Kings Cross, until the following November. Thereafter it was at Grantham and I suggest that Grantham is rather a stretch for an N2 to get to Kings Cross. Stranger things are known, of course, but I suspect this photo is a year earlier than Tim proposes so we are probably looking at some time in 1958.

For today here are a couple of new views of subjects we've seen recently. Details of A4 60021 Wild Swan at Kings Cross are on post #1385 and I believe these photos are in the same sequence so no more to add.



I think this is an interesting shot in terms of it clearly being during the transition period, the date given being October 1960. It's the service point just outside Kings Cross Station. I can only identify Class 31 D5603 and that was about six months old when the photo was taken. Two more Class 31s can be identified together with a couple of A1s (I believe but they could be A2s). D5603 became 31437 by way of 31182 and there's nothing listed for its allocation after May 1988 when it was at Bescot so I assume it was withdrawn around this time.



Still October 1960 but now to the WCML. Here is Princess Coronation 46248 City of Leeds, Tim's original framing and my modified view. Although the location is not identified we've been here before, and it's South Kenton. 46248 moved from Crewe North to Camden in June 1960, then Carlisle Upperby in August before coming back to Camden in September which fits quite neatly. 46248 was withdrawn from Crewe North in September 1964 and was disposed of in November at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (BR Database)



Several shots here again in October 1960 and the original Euston Station with a rather under exposed but magnificent Princess 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught having brought in a named express which frustratingly I can't identify. In October 1960 it was on Camden's allocation with a little more than a year of life left, being withdrawn from Willesden at the end of November 1961. Somewhat poetically destruction finally occurred at Crewe Works during May 1962.









The next series of photos came as something of a surprise to me when I was scanning the collection as they were taken in 1982. They are a set of rare (as far as Tim was concerned) photos of the modern image - at 40 years old they are something of a vintage scene anyway. You'll have to wait......

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Today I'm kicking off by questioning the date I have against the photo of 60026 in post #1394 Tim gives the date as Summer 1959 but I suspect it may be somewhat earlier. To the left of the A4 is an N2, 69516. Details on BR Database advise it as a Kings Cross engine from April to June 1958 whence it went to Hornsey, an easy reach from Kings Cross, until the following November. Thereafter it was at Grantham and I suggest that Grantham is rather a stretch for an N2 to get to Kings Cross. Stranger things are known, of course, but I suspect this photo is a year earlier than Tim proposes so we are probably looking at some time in 1958.

Brian
A couple of quotes from RCTS Part 9A that rather support your supposition.
"The Kings Cross suburban services continued to be worked by N2's until 1st Dec 1958 when some Moorgate trains were diagrammed for diesel haulage. From 15th June 1959 the entire service was to be converted but many failures occurred and the faithful N2's were still active at the end of the year."
This rather suggest that whilst there were some N2's at work in the Kings Cross area from Jan 1960, by and large the DMU held sway. Further evidence, "Several London district engines were sent to New England and Grantham before withdrawal, some of these being used as station pilots whilst others were stored." This adds more weight to your view Brian, I would think 1958 is a better suggestion.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

You've missed the class 40 lurking in the fuel shed next to the running lines .

Ordinarily I'd say they were both A1's, it was exceptionally rare for a A2 to get to Kings Cross in the late 50's as most had been transferred to Scotland and Yorkshire.

Only one was ever based at the southern end of the ECML, namely 60533, one of only five engines with double chimneys and front end throttles, easily spotted by the box like structure behind the chimney.

All A1's had double chimneys, all A2 sans the front end throttle engines had single chimneys

The facing engine has a double chimney but not the front end throttle box so it's an A1, the other will forever remain a mystery.

There were exceptions, most were fresh from works so one assumes a run in turn, but I would expect them to change engines at Grantham as that was the usual run around for run in's, some would run light engine to Barkston and turn on the triangle there. I do have one photo of 60530 with 64A shed code arriving at Grantham from Kings Cross nice and clean from works, so they did get to Kings Cross, just very rarely.

 

[mickoo]

The Princess Royal Headboard is almost certainly 'The Merseyside Express' the only one I can recall that's three lines of text as was a regular run for Edge Hill Princess Royals. Occasionally Royal Scots would take it but I don't think Princess Coronations ever did.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

There were EE type 4s working in and out of Kings Cross from approximately April 1958. The type 4 in the photo doesn't appear to have electrification warning flashes. From my research whilst building my model of D201 it came into service without the flashes as was operating on the GN together with 206-209 before moving to East Anglia in mid 1961.
If I were a gambling man I bet the date as the April-November 1958.

Tim

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Definitely - this is one of my dad's photos from the 1959-61 period taken at Brookmans Park.

 

[oldravendale]

There were EE type 4s working in and out of Kings Cross from approximately April 1958. The type 4 in the photo doesn't appear to have electrification warning flashes. From my research whilst building my model of D201 it came into service without the flashes as was operating on the GN together with 206-209 before moving to East Anglia in mid 1961.
If I were a gambling man I bet the date as the April-November 1958.

Tim

Hi Tim.

It's definitely after March 1960. D5603 was not introduced until 31 March 1960.

I also saw Class 40s at Kings Cross, although a bit later than 1960. Frankly I find it difficult to determine any detail on the Class 40 in this photo so couldn't say whether it has electrification flashes or not - probably not bearing in mind Dave's photo above.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Early D200's ran quite late without warning flashes, certainly after new engines were being delivered with them, plenty of pictures of them before and including 1960 without them.

Initially there was only one on the drivers side of the nose, then two, some engines got yellow panels still with only one warning flash.

D204 appears unique, initially the single warning flash was fitted very low down by the RH indicator disc (Bramford 31st Aug 61)

D203 had it on the LH door by the catches between the two centre head code discs (Claydon 21st Apr 61)

Most of my class 40 research and notes are LMR, looking for the earliest half yellow panel engine to mingle with Princess Royals and Princess Coronations. One rarity not often noted or discussed is the grey bonnet tops applied to some engines, finding those is hard work.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin, Mick, Tim and Dave. Thanks to all for adding info yet again. Added to the details for each image appropriately.

Now as promised a jump to 1982. This set are at Chesterfield The first is looking towards the station with 47330 ex-D1811 at the head of a coal train (remember those) and an unknown type DMU passing in the opposite direction. 47330 became 57312 and is probably still in service. (You can tell I'm well out of my comfort zone here!) (BR Database)



This is the train being hauled by 47330, same date, same location.



Still at Chesterfield in 1982 and a pair of Class 25s on possibly a PW train. I can only identify the second one as 25235. This was born as D7585 and withdrawn from Eastfield in March 1985. My details advise that it's preserved, although I know not where. (BR Database)





Still at Chesterfield in 1982. 56101 on another coal train. The loco was very new at this time, being released to traffic in December 1981. At some time after 1982 it was named Frank Hornby and then in April 1990 Mutual Improvement. It was de-named at the end of June 1996 (Rail UK). BR Database advises that it was withdrawn in September 2008 but I've no idea where from. It has also gone in to preservation, details unknown.



Details here as above, except for the addition of a Class 45 (or 46?) approaching in the opposite direction.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
25235 is preserved at Bo'ness, currently in need of a new set of tyres amongst other things.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Almost certainly a class 45, hard to tell them apart from a distance anyway as most changes were internal.

The old MR held sway to the 45's, 46's tended to be cross country and on the ECML.

By 1982 there were not many class 46 kicking around, they wen't before the 45's, all the ones that remained in 1982 were rounded up and based at Gateshead.

I don't think the 47 is coal, it looks more like coke, coal as seen in the 56 MGR is a finer grade for power stations.

 

[AndyB]

I may be totally wrong, but might the double-headed 25's be hauling a steel train?
The first 2 wagons look to be carrying scrap, so I can't explain why they should be in a train with finished product - unless the train is a mix of scrap and empties?
Andy

 

[hrmspaul]

I may be totally wrong, but might the double-headed 25's be hauling a steel train?
The first 2 wagons look to be carrying scrap, so I can't explain why they should be in a train with finished product - unless the train is a mix of scrap and empties?
Andy

The 4 Borails are loaded.
Paul

 

[David B]

That’s a class 45/1 (one of the 50 converted in the 1970s to provide electric train heating) based on the ETH equipment on the right hand side by the buffer. There are various suggestions that they were considered to be BR’s best type 4 diesels in terms of consistent performance and reliability (apparently because of their Crompton Parkinson electrical gear, which gave them the edge over the Brush-equipped Class 46 and 47s, and the various EE type 4s).

 

[oldravendale]

Martin, Mick, Andy, Paul and David.

Those additional comments are more than beneficial for one who largely lost interest in railways after August 1968. To update the details is of great value as there's very little I can say (as you'll have noticed).

There remains quite a decent amount of late 60s to come but that's for later. Right now I crave your indulgence. You are probably already aware that Tim and I first met knowingly when the Great Central Railway was in its infancy. He remained a loyal volunteer right up to the time he died last year. There is surprisingly little of the GCR in this collection during the whole period up to the present day but he exposed a couple of films at the Schools Weekend in May 1981 or 1982 - he couldn't remember - at the time GNR No1 was at Loughborough. Here's a selection from the 70 or so exposures. I make no further comment as each photo speaks or itself, so this is just a series of nostalgic (for me at least) pictures.






Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Although, if I follow my normal procedure and just put up three or four images a day we should wait 24 hours for these I felt that the following are so far out of the main stream that we should get them out of the way. (Actually the images after these are in Ireland again, and not great quality, so there's an argument for following immediately with those! - but I won't)

However, these are all described as "Wolfgang Mountain Railway. They are undated.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

However, these are all described as "Wolfgang Mountain Railway. They are undated.

Die Schafbergbahn, St. Wolfgang im Salzkammergut, Oberösterreich - (near Salzburg)

Schafberg Railway - Wikipedia