Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[readingtype]

Saarbrücken didn't come up in my original Fährbootwagen search but having another look I would say this is a Trier rather than a Saarbrücken Gbh 21 Fährbootwagen. I've come across this with the plated vent at the non-brake platform end. Güterwagen der Austauschbauart - Wikiwand

Saarbrücken (Gfkhs) was a Fährbootkühlwagen (refrigerated van).

I think we're both right. Quoting your source:

Bis 1929 wurden etwa 300 dieser Wagen gebaut und gehörten von 1927 bis 1934 zum „Gattungsbezirk Trier“, ab 1935 wurden sie dem „Gattungsbezirk Saarbrücken“ zugeordnet.

In summary, 'Trier' was the original designation; they were redesignated 'Saarbrücken' from 1935. The 'Gattungsbezirk' is a curious concept which I guess might be equivalent to the aquatic telegraphic codes used for rolling stock such as 'toad', 'crocodile', 'grampus' etc.

Ben

 

[Arun Sharma]

The 'Gattungsbezirk' is a curious concept which I guess might be equivalent to the aquatic telegraphic codes used for rolling stock such as 'toad', 'crocodile', 'grampus' etc.

Ben

The colour piping around collars and epaulettes on German Servicemen is called "Waffengattungsfarbe" - meaning Arm of Service colour. So pink for tank crews, green for infantry, cornflower blue for medics etc., The word "Gattung" itself means "Genus" so a unique identifier.

 

[Bob Essex]

With regard to the Colchester - Clacton/Walton 25Kv electrification my understanding is that local services using AM2/7/8 units between Clacton and Colchester were the first to start, with those between Thorpe-le-soken and Walton being diesel hauled using class 15’s, suburban EMU’s never normally being used on the latter down the years. Only when the AM9’s arrived did the Walton branch electric services start In conjunction with the hourly Clacton Essex Express interval services. There are shots of B1’s hauling the electric stock to Clacton, the AM9’s being built at York, and originally intended for the WCML if what I have read is correct - the first 100mph express EMU’s.

Bob

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
34078 Ramsgate 21/7/48, Bricklayers Arms 14/6/59, Exmouth Junc 10/2/61, Wdn 9/64, Cut up Bird's Morriston 12/64.
Info from Irwell and no mention of Stewarts Lane!
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

That's a helpful picture, Paul @hrmspaul and so is yours, Paul @Paulatg. I was planning on my crane being a MR one, but to have such excellent pictures makes an alternative quite tempting.

Thanks, Ben @readingtype and Arun, for the continuing discussion regarding that wagon and associated matters!

Continuing info about the electrification through Colchester - almost enough now to create its own volume - and much appreciated Bob @Bob Essex.

As ever, Martin, thanks for yours. I often wonder how these errors get in to loco details and, after all, which one is truly accurate?. I know there have been some bad actors but I can only guess that in most cases it's simply a matter of transferring data from a given source to the wrong loco. I guess we'll never know. I keep all the alternatives, though, as I suspect the correct version is hidden in there somewhere!

E4 0-6-2T 32577 at Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959. It had been at Brighton since 1948 and was withdrawn in October 1959. (SLS). The Railway Observer advises it was cut up at Ashford in the week ending 30th January 1960.



At Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959 is C2X 32449. The allocation at the time was Brighton and it had been since December 1956. It moved to Three Bridges in March 1961 and withdrawal in June the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ashford Works in the week ending 7th October 1961 (RO), or June 1961 if you prefer (BR Database).



Surely one of the most elegant of designs K Class 2-6-0 32342 entering Brighton Station on an ex-Plymouth train on 4th April 1959. The loco had been allocated to Brigton since at least January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in December 1962 (BR Database and SLS). It was seen at Hove Goods Yard dump on 29th December 1962 (SLS) and cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 27th July 1963. (RO).



E4 0-6-2T 32508 standing in a line at Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959. The SLS allocation list doesn’t look right, as it’s shown being reinstated (from where I don’t know) in February 1955 but in to store at Brighton (Newhaven) on the same date. If this is to be believed it was reinstated at Brighton (Newhaven) in August the same year and allocated to Brighton in the following September. Confused? Well, I am! Although Locoshed Books don’t confirm locos in storage I checked the allocation in the volumes I have which advise it was resident at Brighton at least between April 1957 and November 1959. In any event withdrawal came in January 1960 (SLS and BR Database) and it was scrapped week ending 6th February 1960 at Ashford. (RO).



L class 4-4-0 31777 looking very sprightly in the shed yard at Brighton on 4th April 1959. It was allocated to Ashford in December 1952, went in to store in October 1953, was reinstated in early December 1953 and back in to store later the same month before being reinstated in June 1954. It then had a spell at Brighton from June 1956 and went to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ashford week ending 26th September 1959. (RO).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Some confusion as crept in between and Mr Billinton's and Mr Marsh's locos.
32577 and 32508 were both Billinton E4s. The allocation you have is correct for the locos however 32477 was a Marsh E4x, perhaps that's where a classification has gone awry.

32508 Newhaven 1/1/48, Brighton 9/51, Newhaven 2/55, Brighton 9/55, Wdn 1/60.
32342 Brighton 1/1/48, Wdn 12/62.
31777 Ramsgate 1/1/48, Ashford 1/51, Eastleigh 1/52, Ashford 12/52, Brighton 5/56, Nine Elms 5/59, Wdn 9/59.

 

[Barry37]

That's a helpful picture, Paul @hrmspaul and so is yours, Paul @Paulatg. I was planning on my crane being a MR one, but to have such excellent pictures makes an alternative quite tempting.

Thanks, Ben @readingtype and Arun, for the continuing discussion regarding that wagon and associated matters!

Continuing info about the electrification through Colchester - almost enough now to create its own volume - and much appreciated Bob @Bob Essex.

As ever, Martin, thanks for yours. I often wonder how these errors get in to loco details and, after all, which one is truly accurate?. I know there have been some bad actors but I can only guess that in most cases it's simply a matter of transferring data from a given source to the wrong loco. I guess we'll never know. I keep all the alternatives, though, as I suspect the correct version is hidden in there somewhere!

E4X 0-6-2T 32577 at Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959. It had been at Brighton since 1948 and was withdrawn in October 1959. (SLS). The Railway Observer advises it was cut up at Ashford in the week ending 30th January 1960.

View attachment 233064

At Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959 is C2X 32449. The allocation at the time was Brighton and it had been since December 1956. It moved to Three Bridges in March 1961 and withdrawal in June the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ashford Works in the week ending 7th October 1961 (RO), or June 1961 if you prefer (BR Database).

View attachment 233065

Surely one of the most elegant of designs K Class 2-6-0 32342 entering Brighton Station on an ex-Plymouth train on 4th April 1959. The loco had been allocated to Brigton since at least January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in December 1962 (BR Database and SLS). It was seen at Hove Goods Yard dump on 29th December 1962 (SLS) and cut up at Eastleigh Works week ending 27th July 1963. (RO).

View attachment 233066

E4X 0-6-2T 32508 standing in a line at Brighton Shed on 4th April 1959. The SLS allocation list doesn’t look right, as it’s shown being reinstated (from where I don’t know) in February 1955 but in to store at Brighton (Newhaven) on the same date. If this is to be believed it was reinstated at Brighton (Newhaven) in August the same year and allocated to Brighton in the following September. Confused? Well, I am! Although Locoshed Books don’t confirm locos in storage I checked the allocation in the volumes I have which advise it was resident at Brighton at least between April 1957 and November 1959. In any event withdrawal came in January 1960 (SLS and BR Database) and it was scrapped week ending 6th February 1960 at Ashford. (RO).

View attachment 233067

L class 4-4-0 31777 looking very sprightly in the shed yard at Brighton on 4th April 1959. It was allocated to Ashford in December 1952, went in to store in October 1953, was reinstated in early December 1953 and back in to store later the same month before being reinstated in June 1954. It then had a spell at Brighton from June 1956 and went to Nine Elms in June 1959 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ashford week ending 26th September 1959. (RO).

View attachment 233068

Brian

The ex-Plymouth train with K Class 2-6-0 32342 entering Brighton station was, I think, Saturdays only (as day of photo). West Country-hauled in 1962 (via Newton Abbot), but cut back to Exeter and diesel-hauled by 1964.
The shed in the background was a gloomy place – I went with the school Railway Club on a visit in 1963.

 

[AJC]

The ex-Plymouth train with K Class 2-6-0 32342 entering Brighton station was, I think, Saturdays only (as day of photo). West Country-hauled in 1962 (via Newton Abbot), but cut back to Exeter and diesel-hauled by 1964.
The shed in the background was a gloomy place – I went with the school Railway Club on a visit in 1963.

Hastings units, later, of course.

Adam

 

[40057]

Hastings units, later, of course.

Adam

But then reverted to loco hauled until it was dropped from the timetable. It was still running in the 80s, still Saturdays only — but all year, not just summer. Latterly it was Southern Region air-braked Mk1 stock — a boat train set, I think. Also, it was a Hither Green 33 whereas all the other 33 workings west of Salisbury were Eastleigh locos.

 

[AJC]

But then reverted to loco hauled until it was dropped from the timetable. It was still running in the 80s, still Saturdays only — but all year, not just summer. Latterly it was Southern Region air-braked Mk1 stock — a boat train set, I think. Also, it was a Hither Green 33 whereas all the other 33 workings west of Salisbury were Eastleigh locos.

Yes, I knew it had gone back to 33s by the time I was remotely aware - I think dad might have a couple of shots of the Hastings period among his slides. The only journey I had from Yeovil behind a 33, incidentally, was in a TC, which was quite exciting (I think the loco was pushing, too). The only other occasion, which @Stevers might remember, was on the way back from the MRJ show. The 50 allotted to the task didn't want to play at Basingstoke so a 33 was found: it could certainly shift the train, but couldn't run the heating and, being November, it was *very* chilly. Exciting for a 9 year old, regardless. This is quite dramatically off topic, however!

Adam

 

[Stevers]

The 50 allotted to the task didn't want to play at Basingstoke so a 33 was found: it could certainly shift the train, but couldn't run the heating and, being November, it was *very* chilly. Exciting for a 9 year old, regardless. This is quite dramatically off topic, however!

Happy Days!

 

[oldravendale]

Martin @Martin Shaw - you are, of course, quite correct about those two E4s. I took the E4X description from WHTS without checking any other source. Now corrected by way of an edit. The other details you've provided will be added to the files on each of the locos. The E4s below were also shown as E4X so corrected before you saw, and you'll not tell anyone else, will you?

Thanks for yours about the K photo, Barry @Barry37 and for the follow up, Adam @AJC and @40057. Go off topic as often as you like on this thread, Adam! I like the personal reminiscences as they add a human factor to the otherwise quite dry information.

A1X 0-6-0T 32662 and E4 0-6-2T 32515 at Brighton on 4th April 1959. The Terrier had been allocated to Fratton as early as January 1948 (BR database) and the SLS advise it was reinstated there in September 1951 although there’s no indication of when it went in to storage. However, it went back in to store in January 1952, then in to store at St Leonards in October 1953 and continued in store at Brighton (Newhaven) in December the same year, suggesting it was simply shunted around the local area. However, it was reinstated at Brighton (Newhaven) in August 1955 before allocation to Brighton proper a month later before going to Eastleigh in May 1963 and withdrawal the following November. (SLS). The loco was seen on 31st May 1964 at Eastleigh Works awaiting scrapping. This was a survivor, though. See https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/32662-lbscr-62-martello-lbscr-662-sr-b662-br-2662-sr-32662/ It was sold to Butlin’s at Ayr and afterwards went to Bressingham.

E4 0-6-2T 32515 was in post #2040. It was in and out of store at Brighton where it was allocated in January 1952 which was it's final allocation being withdrawn from there in May 1961. (SLS). It was disposed of at Ashford Works in July the same year. (RO).



32449 was a C2X 0-6-0, here with E4 0-6-2T 32468 at Brighton Shed Yard on 4th April 1959. The C2X was allocated to Brighton from December 1956, then Three Bridges from March 1961 where it was withdrawn in June 1961. It was scrapped at Ashford in the week ending 7th October 1961 (RO) although BR Database suggests the scrap date was June 1961.

32468 was at Brighton from March 1955 and was withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh in the week ending 3rd August 1963. (RO).



M7 30050 on a Horsham pull – push at Brighton Station on 4th April 1959. The loco was allocated to Horsham in December 1951, Brighton in July1959, Eastleigh May 1961 and finally Bournemouth in July the same year where it was withdrawn in January 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in week ending 3rd February 1962. (RO).



Previously in post #2592 is Royal Scot 46168 The Girl Guide at Willesden Junction on 11th April 1959. 46168 was allocated to Camden at the time and had been there since November 1946, moving to Preston in September 1959 and Springs Branch, Wigan, where it was withdrawn in early May 1964. (SLS). It was despatched at Crewe Works at the end of August. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Paulatg]

Correct, drivers and management ensured the Clans never had a fair trial, like the Bulleids drafted in

The issue with the Bulleids was (also??) lack of water scoops on the tenders, and they were drafted to stopping trains, particularly on the Cambridge line, when allocated to GE to cover for failed Britannia's.

These notes extracted from the "Modelling the Railways of East Anglia in 4mm" document:

34059 Sir Archibald Sinclair (04/1949 to 5/1949).
34039 Boscastle (4/51-6/52).
34057 Biggin Hill (4/51-5/52).
34065 Hurricane. (04/51 to 5/1952).
34089 602 Squadron (10/1951 to 6/1952).
34076 41 Squadron (10/1951 to 6/1952).

Photos:
34039 at Beccles bank 8/1950. 34039 Stratford 8/05/1951. 34057 Lakenham bank 21/07/1951. 34065 Broxbourne 18/06/1952. 34059 Norwich 18/05/1949. 34057 Norwich 21/10/1951. 34059 Clacton 1949.

General workings London-Norwich/Yarmouth ST/Parkeston/Clacton via Ipswich and on one occasion 34059 Ipswich to Bury St Edmunds return with 6-coach local.

Because of lack of water scoops they spent a lot of time on the London-Cambridge line.

Friday 15/08/1958 may have been the last instance of an SR light Pacific running over the GE with a through working from Dover Marine to Parkeston Quay. Presumed a Forces special, the details of the diagram are 34066 (fully coaled), Dover Loco 12.45, Dover Marine 13.05, Parkeston Quay 18.28, 19.35 Parkeston Quay - Eardley 23.37, ECS Light to Stewarts Lane.


Paul

 

[Barry37]

Happy Days!

Only went that way in 1962 & 64 – we stayed with a former schoolfriend of my mother's in Chudleigh.
One of the journeys was delayed somewhere near Yeovil, due to cows on the line. Returning (1964), there was still a wheel tapper at Exeter Central, who, worryingly, attached a defect notice. to the running board of our coach.

 

[mickoo]

Just a note on the OHLE seen in the Colchester photos.

The GE electrification scheme from Liverpool St to Shenfield and then on to Chelmsford, Colchester, Clacton and Walton-on-the-Naze is more complex than some. Initially started by the LNER and then as part of the 1955 Modernisation and Re-Equipment of British Railways report (not to be confused with the infamous 1963 The Reshaping of British Railways part 1 and part 2 (Maps) report). The electrification dates and voltages are:

Liverpool St - Shenfield (original LNER scheme delayed by WWII)
1949-1959 1,500V DC
1960-1979 6.25kV AC
1979- 25kV AC

Shenfield - Chelmsford
1962-1979 6.25kV AC
1979- 25kV AC

Chelmsford - Colchester
1962- 25kV AC

Colchester - Clacton - Walton-on-the-Naze
1959- 25kV AC

Dates were found here Electrification dates. I think the 1960 and 1962 are the start dates of regular train services although the infrastructure was in place in 1959. Services did not begin in earnest until late 1962 as they were delayed by the late delivery of the AM9 (class 309) units.

Which explains why in the photo of B1 61000 Springbok below the Clacton service is steam hauled although the wires are in place.

Just to clarify, Colchester to Clacton was electrified before the main line GE section, as your dates show three years before. It was a trial 25KV section at roughly the same time as the LMR Manchester to Crewe. Somewhere I think I've got some trial AM4 units on there.

Those are the first photos I've ever seen of the OHLE in Colchester when not part of the bigger scheme.

I've got a niggling feeling that Chelmsford was never 6.25KV as it came under the Southend project which I think was 25KV, the change over being just outside Shenfield on both lines.

The 1979 date for full 25KV is odd as AM12's were running in 77 and they were full 25KV only.

 

[Genghis]

Just to clarify, Colchester to Clacton was electrified before the main line GE section, as your dates show three years before. It was a trial 25KV section at roughly the same time as the LMR Manchester to Crewe. Somewhere I think I've got some trial AM4 units on there.

Those are the first photos I've ever seen of the OHLE in Colchester when not part of the bigger scheme.

I've got a niggling feeling that Chelmsford was never 6.25KV as it came under the Southend project which I think was 25KV, the change over being just outside Shenfield on both lines.

The 1979 date for full 25KV is odd as AM12's were running in 77 and they were full 25KV only.

Mick, I think that the GER AM12's were dual voltage. The LM ones were 25kV only.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Paul @Paulatg , for your additional info about the Bulleids on the GER. My understanding is that they acquitted themselves quite well (or is that damned by faint praise?) but I agree, the lack of water scoops was not helpful. However, I seem to remember that one or more was paired with a WD tender to overcome that issue, so why wasn't it done on the GER tests?

Barry @Barry37 - I never had the experience of a ticket being applied to any vehicle on which I travelled but certainly remember the wheel tappers at Waterloo.

Thanks for continuing the GE discussion, Mick @mickoo. More grist to the mill - and thanks for yours, David @Genghis. I'm in no position to make any comment on the GER electric stock but your info is useful in building the full picture.

This loco was in these pages as long ago as post #944 and is Royal Scot 46129 The Scottish Horse at Willesden Junction on 11th April 1959. Home shed was Crewe North from November 1957, then Carlisle Kingmoor in July, Upperby in September 1961, Crewe North again in March 1962 and from September 1962 it was a Longsight engine, withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It went to Central Wagon Co, Ince (RO) where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database).



B1 61203 on a local train to Ely at Cambridge on 7th June 1959. It had been allocated to Cambridge since November 1957 and moved to March in October 1960 where it was withdrawn on 23rd July 1962. (SLS). Disposal was at Doncaster Works in July 1962. (BR Database).



Seen previously as long ago as post #158 (at the end of October 2020!) is B12 61577, here at Cambridge Shed on 7th June 1959. BR Database says that this loco was at Ipswich from at least 1948 until August 1958 when it moved to Norwich Thorpe. (BR Database and SLS). It was withdrawn from Cambridge in September 1959 where it was allocated from April the same year. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it went to Stratford Works and WHTS records it as being noted there on 4th October 1959. The Railway Observer advises that it was seen being cut up on 10th November 1959.



Here’s another seen previously, in post #2302. It’s Class O1 2-8-0 63590 on Cambridge Shed on 7th June 1959. Allocated to March in March 1957 it moved to Staveley in November 1959. It was finally at Langwith Junction from June 1965 and was withdrawn within the month. (SLS). In July and August 1965 it was seen in store at Langwith Junction. It arrived at Dairycoates Sidings at Hull on 20th September 1965 and was cut up at Draper's in Hull on 4th October. (I have cobbled this data together from WHTS as there are some conflicting sightings). BR Database advises that it was sold for scrap to A Draper, Hull in August 1965 and cut up in the following October.



Brian

 

[timbowales]

Another rabbit hole opens, just spotted the trolleybus wiring in the Willesden Junction photo!

 

[oldravendale]

Well seen, Tim @timbowales! I remember so well catching the 664 or 666 from Edgware to Cricklewood with friends, bunk the shed there and catch another trolleybus on the same route to Willesden to do Willesden and Old Oak Common, followed up by another bus ride to Kings Cross, all using my Red Rover ticket which allowed travel on any red bus for the princely sum of 2/6d as a child - I was about 11 or 12 years old at the time. (That's 12 1/2 p in toytown money). Those trolleys were wonderful vehicles. Memories, memories. If anyone wants to continue down this rabbit hole on this thread please feel welcome.

Class E4 0-6-2T 32475 at Brighton Shed on 31st May 1959. This was based at Newhaven from at least January 1948 (BR Database), went in to store there in February and was reinstated in August before going to Brighton in September, all in 1955. (SLS). Ultimately it was disposed of at Ashford Works in week ending 22nd July 1961. (RO).



Hove Station from an overbridge looking towards Brighton with M7 0-4-4T 30051 on pull push set 37 on 9th May 1959. The loco was allocated to Horsham from October 1953 and moved to Brighton in July 1959 then Nine Elms in May 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It went to Eastleigh Works for disposal where it was cut up week ending 3rd November 1962. (RO).



Original West Country 34097 Holsworthy at Brighton Shed on 28th May 1959. This was one of the class rebuilt, in this case in March 1961. In January 1959, however, home shed was Brighton and it moved to Exmouth Junction in November 1960. It was reallocated to Eastleigh in May 1962 and withdrawn in April 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in September the same year. (BR Database).



Two photos here of K Class 2-6-0 32339 at different dates, but both at Brighton (where Tim was posted when on National Service – hence the large number of photos at Brighton around this period.) The first photo, with Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80148 in the background, was on shed on 28th May 1959. The second was taken at Brighton Station on 25th April 1959.

32339 was allocated to Brighton from at least January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It arrived at Eastleigh for disposal between 4th and 24th November 1962 and was scrapped week ending 1st December 1962. (RO).

80148 was a Brighton engine since built in 1956 until transfer to Feltham in June 1963. (SLS). It was withdrawn a year later and went to Steel Supply Company, West Drayton for disposal which was completed in March 1965. (RO and BR Database). It was one of only two engines to go to Steel Supply Company, the other also being a Standard 2-6-4T. (Rail UK).





Brian

 

[timbowales]

Brian, I have to declare a family interest in trolleybuses. I was born in Bradford where my father was a fitter for BCT maintaining trolleybuses. He thus had the electric propelled vehicles category on his driving licence