Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

I saw that many times, Dave, but never enjoyed it for myself! It's great the way these pictures pull up so many memories.

Moving "darn sarf" for a couple of photos, here's 34019 Bideford on a Cardiff - Brighton arrival at Brighton on 12th July 1960. A little later this was a favourite for rail tours but at the time it was "owned" by Brighton Shed. It moved around the Western section after leaving Brighton, even spending some time at Feltham doubtless in its "mixed traffic" guise. It was finally at Nine Elms and withdrawn in mid March 1967 whence it went to Cashmore's, Newport, where it was broken up during September the same year. (BR Database)



Another at Brighton on 12th July 1960 is standard 4 2-6-4T 80138 on a local from Tunbridge Wells. This was a Tunbridge Wells West loco at the time but ended up at Bournemouth by way of Redhill. It was withdrawn from Bournemouth at the beginning of October 1966 and also went to Cashmore's at Newport where it was scrapped during February 1967. (BR Database).



Now a selection of views of Black 5 45277 at Kentish Town on 18th February 1961. It had been at Kentish Town for a long time before this photo was taken - since 1948 - but it moved around the Midland Region a lot before ending up at Chester from where it was withdrawn in February 1967. This one also went to Cashmore's, but at Great Bridge, where it was disposed of during May 1967. (BR Database)

I'm particularly fond of the last shot.





Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A note on the SR headcodes...

Moving "darn sarf" for a couple of photos, here's 34019 Bideford on a Cardiff - Brighton arrival at Brighton on 12th July 1960.

The headcode being displayed is Littlehampton - Brighton as the train would have reversed at Littlehampton. There were also train reversals at Portsmouth and Southsea and Bognor which in more than likely resulted in locomotive changes as well. The train will be reversing at Brighton to go on to Hastings service.

This is an extract from the 1960 BR(S) timetable on Timetable World which has a searchable timetable database and narrows down the photo to have been taken at 1.36 pm or shortly thereafter.

Another at Brighton on 12th July 1960 is standard 4 2-6-4T 80138 on a local from Tunbridge Wells. This was a Tunbridge Wells West loco at the time but ended up at Bournemouth by way of Redhill.

The headcode is is for a Tonbridge-Brighton via Eridge train. The route was Tonbridge - Tunbridge Wells Central - Tunbridge Wells West - Eridge - Uckfield - Lewes - Brighton.

Judging by the angle of the sun it could be one these three trains.



And finally.... on the left of the photo in the siding there is an ex-SR Pullman car.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Dave for so much detail. It's rare that we know not only the date and location but time as well. All duly added to the data for the photos. I recognised the Pullman but wasn't certain so didn't mention it. I'm glad you did!

Back to proper Midland now.

This is Kentish Town Shed again on 18th February 1961. The loco on the left can be identified from a later photo as Black 5 44846 although there's nothing in the series to identify the Fowler condensing 2-6-2T in store on the right. 44846 appears to have been a Kentish Town resident since 1948 - it's in the Locoshed Books for 1958 and 1959 as still being there - although it moved around afterwards, including a stint on the GCR before ending up on the LMS at Newton Heath where it was withdrawn in January 1968. (BR Database). It then went to Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped by the end of April the same year. (Rail UK)



Still at Kentish Town on 18th February 1961 and two similar but different views inside the shed. From the right the buffer beam and hose may well be the Fowler 2-6-2T seen in the previous shot, then the front of an unidentified Black 5. Then there's the smokebox of a Black 5 and a Fowler 4F 0-6-0 44575 and yet another Black 5 which I read as 45427 but that's a bit unlikely as it appears to have been a West Coast loco all its life. The 4F was at Wellingborough in 1948 and may well still have been shedded there it certainly was in 1958 and 1959. It ended up at Coalville and was withdrawn in November 1964 going to Cohens at Kettering where it was disposed of by February 1965. (BR Database)



Finally for today and still at Kentish Town on 18th February 1961 an unidentified Black 5 stands next to a similarly unknown Fowler 2-6-4T.



Brian

 

[daifly]

Brian

The loco to the left of 44575 appears to be 45622 which would make it a Jubilee. My knowledge of LMS locos is limited so I may be completely wrong!

In the final photo, the Fowler has visible digits x234x which makes it probably 42342 or 42349, both of which were at Kentish Town at the time. The Black 5 appears to be 44817 - also a Kentish Town loco at the time. I have a large monitor and with the image magnified, the digits are visible.

Dave
edit to add that the Black 5 to the right of 44575 appears to be 4482x. Both 44821 and 44822 were at KT at the time.

 

[daifly]

More speculation. There were 5 Fowler 3Ps allocated to KT on 16th February 1961. 40024/31/35/37/203. Of these, 4 had condensing apparatus. Two of these were withdrawn in July 61. These were 40035 and 40037 so it is likely that the loco in store in the first photo is one of these two.
Dave

 

[mickoo]

It's a Jubilee, the tell tale stub of the middle cylinder tail rod cover is hidden by a plate on the centre lamp iron but the other two give always are not hidden.

A much taller chimney than a black 5 and higher pitched boiler/lower running boards means the running boards are level with the base of the smoke box. On the black 5 the boiler is lower so the bottom of the smoke box is below the level of the running boards.

In addition, the cover between the frames is larger/taller on the Jubilee.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Further to the pic of the C2X at Haywards Heath in post #1497. The train is standing on the down siding and the line immediately in front of it is the down local, HH was and maybe still is a up and down loop, known as the local lines, outside the up and down through lines. From the down siding there is a long trailing ladder crossover across the whole layout such that there is access to and from all running lines as well as sidings on the up side. The train is facing north and despite my earlier assertion that it was shunting, I now think it was waiting to depart north or up, for which there are two likely possibilities. At that time the line between Horsted Keynes and East Grinstead was closed to ordinary traffic and the (up) line was used for the storage of redundant wagons and it's going there, or given that it looks as though there is a mooing thing in the front cattle wagon, it's a regular goods train then Three Bridges or Norwood seems most likely.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave, Mick and Martin. All really helpful additions to the info for each of the pictures and duly added.

For the next few posts we'll be bimbling between Willesden and Old Oak Common with a bit of Kentish Town thrown in for good measure.

Here, at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961 is 57XX 0-6-0PT 8768 still carrying the early BR totem. It was certainly a resident of Old Oak from April/May 1957 (Locoshed Books) and probably for a while before that. It was withdrawn from Old Oak at the end of September 1964. (BR Database). Rail UK agrees on the withdrawal date but suggests it's last shed was Didcot. It advises that disposal occurred at Birds at Risca, Newport by the end of April 1965.



Still at Old Oak on 18th February 1961 is condensing 57XX 0-6-0PT 9700. This had probably been the property of Old Oak for it's entire life as proposed by Rail UK. It was withdrawn from Old Oak in early October 1963 (BR Database) or perhaps early November (SLS). It met its demise at Swindon Works by the end of the year. (Rail UK)



Inside the vast roundhouse at Old Oak is Castle 5043 Earl of Mount Edgcumbe on 18th February 1961. It belonged to Old Oak at the time but moved around the system a bit thereafter being withdrawn from Cardiff East Dock in December 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Barry Scrapyard and I believe is now owned by 7029 Clun Castle. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

For today's episode we're back at Kentish Town and then Old Oak.

First is Jubilee 4-4-0 - or is that 4-2-2? - 45589 Gwalior under repair at Kentish Town on 18th February 1961. Was there a wheel drop at Kentish Town - I can't remember? If not how was that driving axle extracted? Surely not using shear legs. Also, judging by the position of the other driving wheels it's not been moved since the centre pair were removed. Anyway, 45589 was a Holbeck engine in 1961, although it had been shedded at Kentish Town previously. It moved on to Wakefield where it was withdrawn on 22nd March 1965 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped a year later. (BR Database and SLS). Interestingly the SLS reports 45589 as being in Crewe erecting shop on 21st March and as it was withdrawn a day later it must have been considered a lost cause.



We've seen a very similar shot to this in post #1504 so I'll not repeat the details here.



Back to Old Oak Common and 6803 Buckleberry Grange with what Tim refers to as "small tender" on 18th February 1961. It was a Stourbridge Junction engine in 1961, moving to Oxley in 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1965. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Birds at Long Marston for disposal which was complete by the end of January 1966.



Here's a fine collection of engines. Castles 4085 Perkeley Castle and 5057 Earl Waldegrave with a 61XX which Tim records as 6103 but I read as 6163 at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. In turn: Both 4085 and 5057 were Old Oak engines in 1961. 4085 was withdrawn in May 1962. It went to Cashmore's, Newport for disposal which was completed in October the same year. 5057 was withdrawn in March 1964 and was scrapped the following August at Swindon. (BR Database) 6163 was also an Old Oak Common engine by 1961, moved to Southall in 1964 and was withdrawn at the beginning of October 1965. (BR Database). It then went to Birds at Risca, Newport where it was scrapped by the end of February 1966. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Why has the Jubilee not been moved? Surely both leading and trailing wheels are touching the rail head and both will revolve at the same rate?

Granted they may not be in perfect alignment to fit the rods but I'd expect the pins to be roughly the same if it were just shunted around the yard.

I think Kentish Town had shear legs, most big depots had them, but then I would have expected the tender to disconnected, maybe it was and just pushed back up to the loco during the repairs.



A 4-6-0 is not a problem for shear legs but probably the biggest they can go to.

 

[Oz7mm]

Still on 15th July 1960 and at Bushey Troughs is Royal Scot 46122 Royal Ulster Rifleman on a down Stoke train. At the time it was a Bushbury engine, moving around quite a bit including a spell at Nine Elms before ending up at Annesley
Brian

I was unaware any Royal Scot had been allocated to the Southern Region. What services was it used on and why was it needed? Nine Elms seems to have a profusion of new Standard Class 5s (BR Database again).

John

 

[oldravendale]

Why has the Jubilee not been moved? Surely both leading and trailing wheels are touching the rail head and both will revolve at the same rate?

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Mick and you may well be correct. However, I regularly found that locos which had been moved within sheds without their rods arrived with wheels out of sync and I'm ignoring the photos I took at Barry for obvious reasons.

Here's an example. 47500 continued to work for a further year so was not being stripped - in fact it went back to Bletchley and was withdrawn a year later. However the centre axle has been removed and the wheels are out of sync.

Further advice from anyone who has actually moved locos around without their rods will be a valuable addition to these thoughts.




Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I was unaware any Royal Scot had been allocated to the Southern Region. What services was it used on and why was it needed? Nine Elms seems to have a profusion of new Standard Class 5s (BR Database again).

John

That's a good observation, John, and I've done a bit more digging.

According to BR Database 46122 was at Nine Elms from 17th December 1960 until 17th June 1961 after leaving Willesden. (It's also recorded by BR Database moving from Longsight to Nine Elms from 25th April 1959 until 13th June the same year when it moved back to Longsight. The SLS don't report this but say that the loco was at Trafford Park from 2nd May 1959 until 11th July when it moved to Carlisle Upperby). However the SLS says that it was at Trafford Park on loan from 31st December 1960 and allocated there from 4th February 1961 before going to Saltley from 1st July 1961. BR Database says that the loco went to Saltley after leaving Nine Elms from 17th June 1961.

Additionally the SLS reports that 46122 among others went to Trafford Park on 7th January 1961. On 3rd June they report that 46122 among others was at Saltley to work Leeds-Birmingham-Bristol. On 8th April 1962 it was reported at Crewe New Erecting Shops, again by the SLS and on 3rd June it was in store at Saltley in ex-works condition.

So pick the bones out of that!

I was being a bit provocative in mentioning Nine Elms, perhaps, although it is recorded. Having reviewed the available info I suspect that there's been a transposition of some data leading to the confusion I report above. Even with all this I may only be skating over the surface. Oh, for more Locoshed Books!

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Further advice from anyone who has actually moved locos around without their rods will be a valuable addition to these thoughts.

I have no experience in relation to your request... however, somewhere in the back of my foggy mind I recollect reading about something similar with the LMS Garretts. I think that the relevant book was written by the late Richard Hardy and the title eludes me. The essence of the author's experience is that no matter how hard he tried to align (synchronise) the front and rear engines that state was not maintained once the loco had left the shed yard.

regards, Graham

 

[AJC]

That's a good observation, John, and I've done a bit more digging.

According to BR Database 46122 was at Nine Elms from 17th December 1960 until 17th June 1961 after leaving Willesden. (It's also recorded by BR Database moving from Longsight to Nine Elms from 25th April 1959 until 13th June the same year when it moved back to Longsight. The SLS don't report this but say that the loco was at Trafford Park from 2nd May 1959 until 11th July when it moved to Carlisle Upperby). However the SLS says that it was at Trafford Park on loan from 31st December 1960 and allocated there from 4th February 1961 before going to Saltley from 1st July 1961. BR Database says that the loco went to Saltley after leaving Nine Elms from 17th June 1961.

Additionally the SLS reports that 46122 among others went to Trafford Park on 7th January 1961. On 3rd June they report that 46122 among others was at Saltley to work Leeds-Birmingham-Bristol. On 8th April 1962 it was reported at Crewe New Erecting Shops, again by the SLS and on 3rd June it was in store at Saltley in ex-works condition.

So pick the bones out of that!

I was being a bit provocative in mentioning Nine Elms, perhaps, although it is recorded. Having reviewed the available info I suspect that there's been a transposition of some data leading to the confusion I report above. Even with all this I may only be skating over the surface. Oh, for more Locoshed Books!

Brian

I wonder what on earth their source was. My money is on a database error or a typo, because a Scot hanging around at Nine Elms for six months is something that would be quite widely reported and known (witness that B1 at Redhill, the Jubilee that was grounded at Eastleigh, etc.).

More practically, the shed had Bulleids emerging from every orifice for the kind of work a Scot might do so there’s no traffic need that I can imagine.

Adam

 

[Oz7mm]

Re 46122 at Nine Elms. BR Database actually shows the shed code as 9E but the shed name as Nine Elms so someone has done a rather sloppy interpretation. 9E was Trafford Park.

It also exposes the BR database as a less relational database than I would have expected. If the allocation data for 46122 shows 9E why isn't there a simple lookup function to show Trafford Park in the text. Typing in 9E and Nine Elms makes no sense and the lack of a relational structure makes no sense.

Furthermore if you look at the table of locos allocated to Nine Elms 46122 doesn't appear. Leaves me a bit wary of the database.

John

 

[oldravendale]

I think you've cracked it, John. I didn't look at the shed codes and if you substitute Trafford Park for Nine Elms it starts to make sense. It's not unusual for there to be a small difference in dates between SLS and others and, as I said, I lack the Locoshed books for the appropriate period. I also think you are being exceptionally hard on the information in BR Database. On the whole it's been shown to be accurate and to agree with other published sources. I, personally, have been professionally responsible for similar transcription errors and as has been said many times previously the person who never made a mistake never made anything.

BR Database will remain my major source of info and I will continue to identify the source where I can against each photo. Regrettably to check every available source of info makes publication of photos in the volume I have here impractical.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Well I suppose I' ve moved enough locos without rods on to comment, it makes no difference at all, they always end up misaligned and you have to skite the wheels around when putting the rods back on. The pic of Gwalior has misled you though Brian, that the crankpins on the remaining wheels are in alignment is happen stance, not an indication that it hasn't moved since the middle axle was removed.

Re 46122 allocations, this is the info I have,
Longsight 12/10/46
Trafford Park 25/4/59
Longsight 13/6/59
Bushbury 7/11/59
Willesden 3/12/60
Trafford Park 4/2/61
Saltley 17/6/61
Trafford Park 17/12/61
Upperby 30/6/62
Kingmoor 21/7/62
Wdwn w/e 17/10/64
No mention as one would suspect of Nine Elms even on loan and as Adam commented sufficiently unusual to have been well reported, however my info is still at odds with others.

Regards
Martin

 

[Oz7mm]

Brian

The issue is not with the data but with the apparent database design which seems to allow an error like this. It also makes the compilers' job that much more difficult.

John

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the info, Martin. All in all it looks as though the Jubilee was actually moved around and just happened to end up with everything apparently in sync.

John. I appreciate your comments here. Having thought about the situation further I think I may rely to a greater extent on the SLS info. I've yet to check that against Martin's data above but it looks potentially more reliable. When I start pulling stuff together for the next post I'll edit the allocations for 46122 to make more sense and I thank you for challenging the info as I presented it. If you'd not done so I'd have perpetuated a myth.

Brian