Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Indeed so, John, and thanks again. In the interim, until we get the allocations sorted out, reference to Nine Elms has been excised!
Martin, I'm just working through your info which is (probably unsurprisingly) at odds here and there with other data. Would you kindly let me know your source - then the SLS data and yours can stand side by side. In particular 46122 appears to have spent time on the GCR in its declining years which does not appear in your listing. My Locoshed Book for May/June 1964 shows the allocation as Annesley.
Incidentally, I've just looked up Locoshed Books on ebay in the hope that I may expand my collection - they'd be really useful in cases such as this. The prices are absurd! Abebooks look to be a potential and less expensive source, though.
Brian
Martin, I'm just working through your info which is (probably unsurprisingly) at odds here and there with other data. Would you kindly let me know your source - then the SLS data and yours can stand side by side. In particular 46122 appears to have spent time on the GCR in its declining years which does not appear in your listing. My Locoshed Book for May/June 1964 shows the allocation as Annesley.
Incidentally, I've just looked up Locoshed Books on ebay in the hope that I may expand my collection - they'd be really useful in cases such as this. The prices are absurd! Abebooks look to be a potential and less expensive source, though.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Mick. That's pretty definitive.
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Used to regularly see 47500 and her sister 47501 together at Willesden on weekend visits in 1964. When I get around to building my Connoisseur Jinty kit, it will be 47500 so a very useful photograph!
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Oddly enough, the undated IA Locoshed Book [LS/1305/97/300/864 on the back] but probably end of 1963 gives 46122 as being allocated to 16B Annesley.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for your input, Arun. It's another bit of confirmation. I'll now go away and pick the bones out of everything we have about 46122, and not a mention of Nine Elms..... I'm putting the tin hat on anything further about 46122. My brain aches already.
As for 47500 - It was my very first loco kit, also from Jim and part of a train kit comprising the Jinty, a white metal gunpowder van, a brass wagon (or perhaps it was the other way round) and an LMS brake van in brass. All for £100! Plus wheels and motor/gearbox of course. I glued the white metal together. It was a bit wonky but ran OK. Then the brass wagon which needed a lot of cleaning up to remove errant bits of solder and the brake van for which I used 70 degree solder! It still sticks together. The loco followed and made a fine model which still runs today. As I had a decent photo of 47500 that's what I built. Would I do better today? I doubt it, but it was very clever marketing to create a collection which gently lead one in to loco building. I wonder why no-one does it now - possibly price which I reckon would have to be £500 or even more. I've had a soft spot for Jim's locos ever since.
Brian
As for 47500 - It was my very first loco kit, also from Jim and part of a train kit comprising the Jinty, a white metal gunpowder van, a brass wagon (or perhaps it was the other way round) and an LMS brake van in brass. All for £100! Plus wheels and motor/gearbox of course. I glued the white metal together. It was a bit wonky but ran OK. Then the brass wagon which needed a lot of cleaning up to remove errant bits of solder and the brake van for which I used 70 degree solder! It still sticks together. The loco followed and made a fine model which still runs today. As I had a decent photo of 47500 that's what I built. Would I do better today? I doubt it, but it was very clever marketing to create a collection which gently lead one in to loco building. I wonder why no-one does it now - possibly price which I reckon would have to be £500 or even more. I've had a soft spot for Jim's locos ever since.
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
My reference is also Irwell's "Book of" first edition in 1999, perhaps an earlier one than Micks. It has no reference to 46122 at Annesley although I'm quite prepared to believe it was there and it is the published info that is wrong. A number of Royal Scots were allocated to the GC to prop things up as the BRB relentlessly ran it down and as far as I can ascertain it was their last allocation before withdrawal. I can find no reference to one returning to the LM for anything other than accountancy purposes upon withdrawal. It would seem that there were 13 Scots allocated to Annesley between 2/62 and 11/64, 01/11/12/22/26/43/53/56/58/63/65/67/69. When did the GC close to pass traffic?
Sheds
The Nine Elms mistake is as far as I can see a transcription error, someone has read 9E literally as Nine Elms and rather than interpreting it as Trafford Park.
I have this rare survivor, the original BR Motive Power Depot Codes pamphlet from Feb 1950 with an accompanying circular of Ju;ly that year with amendments. Pertinently the Trafford Park District 13 is abolished, Trafford Park itself becomes 9E, Heaton Mersey 9F, and Northwich 9G. This appears to be the abolition of Cheshire Lines as a separate MP district and some sheds being incorporated in others. Noticeable amongst the list are the places that no longer have a railway, let alone Motive Power Depots, or engine sheds as they are properly called.
Regards
Martin
Sheds
The Nine Elms mistake is as far as I can see a transcription error, someone has read 9E literally as Nine Elms and rather than interpreting it as Trafford Park.
I have this rare survivor, the original BR Motive Power Depot Codes pamphlet from Feb 1950 with an accompanying circular of Ju;ly that year with amendments. Pertinently the Trafford Park District 13 is abolished, Trafford Park itself becomes 9E, Heaton Mersey 9F, and Northwich 9G. This appears to be the abolition of Cheshire Lines as a separate MP district and some sheds being incorporated in others. Noticeable amongst the list are the places that no longer have a railway, let alone Motive Power Depots, or engine sheds as they are properly called.
Regards
Martin
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I know I said I'd put the lid on this but I asked for the references, Martin, and here they are. That's rather lazy to translate 9E to Nine Elms though, isn't it....
Thank you, Martin. I'm now convinced that 46122 spent time on the GCR. I have a photo of it at Marylebone in March 1964 (not my copyright so not reproduced here). That is not, of course, definitive proof but we're building a body of rather more than circumstantial evidence. The Scots on the GCR were a sad sight. They were well worn out and their failures were well documented. A sad requiem for locos which were so highly regarded and successfully pushed to their limits on the WCML. I could go in to reams about the political circumstances but will carefully avoid doing so.
Lid is now applied.
Thank you, Martin. I'm now convinced that 46122 spent time on the GCR. I have a photo of it at Marylebone in March 1964 (not my copyright so not reproduced here). That is not, of course, definitive proof but we're building a body of rather more than circumstantial evidence. The Scots on the GCR were a sad sight. They were well worn out and their failures were well documented. A sad requiem for locos which were so highly regarded and successfully pushed to their limits on the WCML. I could go in to reams about the political circumstances but will carefully avoid doing so.
Lid is now applied.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Castle 5006 Tregenna Castle at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. It was a Landore engine until June 1961. It ended up at Carmarthen and was withdrawn at the end of April 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Newport a year later. (Rail UK).
Castles 5057 and 4085 at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. Details of these two are in post #1510.
These two shots are of 94XX 0-6-0PT 9418 with original BR totem on Empty Stock at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. It was an Old Oak engine at the time and moved to Southall in April 1965 going in to store in May and being withdrawn in June. (SLS) It was scrapped at T W Ward, Briton Ferry, by the end of October 1965. (Rail UK)
Brian
Castles 5057 and 4085 at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. Details of these two are in post #1510.
These two shots are of 94XX 0-6-0PT 9418 with original BR totem on Empty Stock at Old Oak Common on 18th February 1961. It was an Old Oak engine at the time and moved to Southall in April 1965 going in to store in May and being withdrawn in June. (SLS) It was scrapped at T W Ward, Briton Ferry, by the end of October 1965. (Rail UK)
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
A bit less controversy from that last post, I'm pleased to say!
Now some views of a shed I remember well and where I, myself, took many photos.
Crab 2-6-0 42853 at Willesden on 18th February 1961. It was a Nuneaton engine at the time, then to Mold Junction at the start of July and finally Birkenhead Mollington Street in December. It was withdrawn from there in mid June 1963 going to Crewe Works for scrapping which had occurred by mid October. (SLS)
Also at Willesden on 18th February 1961 is 8F 2-8-0 48363. It was a Toton engine in 1961 and moved around a bit, including six months on the GCR in 1965. The final shed was Northwich and it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in July 1968 but I know not where. (BR Database)
I remember this scene so well. Outside Willesden Long Shed on 18th February 1961. There's an EE Type 1 Bo-Bo on the left. A Black 5 and Royal Scot/Rebuilt Patriot/Rebuilt Jubilee can be identified along with others which are rather more difficult to determine.
Fowler 4F 0-6-0 43957 under repair at Willesden 18th February 1961. (Once again, note that the remaining driving wheels are "in sync"). The shed plate is readable as 2E which fits with the SLS and BR Database allocation of Northampton at the time. It went to Crewe Works as, I assume, a works shunter (it was recorded as such by the SLS on 8th April 1962 and was still there on 1st April 1964) and was withdrawn on 2nd May the same year. Not surprisingly Crewe Works did the disposal duties which were complete by the end of the month. (Rail UK)
Brian
Now some views of a shed I remember well and where I, myself, took many photos.
Crab 2-6-0 42853 at Willesden on 18th February 1961. It was a Nuneaton engine at the time, then to Mold Junction at the start of July and finally Birkenhead Mollington Street in December. It was withdrawn from there in mid June 1963 going to Crewe Works for scrapping which had occurred by mid October. (SLS)
Also at Willesden on 18th February 1961 is 8F 2-8-0 48363. It was a Toton engine in 1961 and moved around a bit, including six months on the GCR in 1965. The final shed was Northwich and it was withdrawn in November 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in July 1968 but I know not where. (BR Database)
I remember this scene so well. Outside Willesden Long Shed on 18th February 1961. There's an EE Type 1 Bo-Bo on the left. A Black 5 and Royal Scot/Rebuilt Patriot/Rebuilt Jubilee can be identified along with others which are rather more difficult to determine.
Fowler 4F 0-6-0 43957 under repair at Willesden 18th February 1961. (Once again, note that the remaining driving wheels are "in sync"). The shed plate is readable as 2E which fits with the SLS and BR Database allocation of Northampton at the time. It went to Crewe Works as, I assume, a works shunter (it was recorded as such by the SLS on 8th April 1962 and was still there on 1st April 1964) and was withdrawn on 2nd May the same year. Not surprisingly Crewe Works did the disposal duties which were complete by the end of the month. (Rail UK)
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
FWIW given identified inaccuracy in WHTS, 48363 [according to WHTS] was withdrawn 11/67 from Aintree, stored at Northwich from 11/67 to 4/68 and scrapped at Buttigiegs, Newport in July 68.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Arun, but what's WHTS?
AJC
Western Thunderer
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
For those who may not know, Peter Hands [railway photographer/author of railway photo albums] attempted to discover what had happened to the ?16200 steam locos BR withdrew post-1957 [essentially as a result of the Modernisation Plan]. These he wrote up in a series of 50 typewritten A5 sized booklets [called "What Happened to Steam"] which covered every class of steam locos extant in 1957 [and those built between 1957 and 1960].
For each class he gives a short class history and for each individual loco he gives end of year allocation, withdrawal date, place of storage and eventual date and place of cutting up.
As an example:
6670 has allocation sheds for 1/57, 12/57, 12/58,12/59,12/60, 12/61,12/62, 12/63, Withdrawn 10/63, stored 88C 10/63-3/64 and scrapped Hayes, Bridgend 3/64-6/64.
Imagine that repeated 16200 times.
There are errors in the listings but perhaps not so many to matter although I understand that one or more of his contributors may have indulged in some guesswork.
It is a fascinating series of booklets and it took me ages to get a complete set. My understanding is that subsequent online data bases have used WHTS as a basis and where individuals have photographic or other evidence of place/date of scrapping the online records are updated.
For each class he gives a short class history and for each individual loco he gives end of year allocation, withdrawal date, place of storage and eventual date and place of cutting up.
As an example:
6670 has allocation sheds for 1/57, 12/57, 12/58,12/59,12/60, 12/61,12/62, 12/63, Withdrawn 10/63, stored 88C 10/63-3/64 and scrapped Hayes, Bridgend 3/64-6/64.
Imagine that repeated 16200 times.
There are errors in the listings but perhaps not so many to matter although I understand that one or more of his contributors may have indulged in some guesswork.
It is a fascinating series of booklets and it took me ages to get a complete set. My understanding is that subsequent online data bases have used WHTS as a basis and where individuals have photographic or other evidence of place/date of scrapping the online records are updated.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
First a quick thank you to everyone - and there were quite a few - who took time out at Guildex to let me know how much they value and enjoy this thread. I've been directed to some additional prime sources for information for which I'm most grateful. I can't promise to use them all for every photo - well, I could but then I'd be lucky to be able to show a single picture a day - but they allow for some further checks when information looks flaky.
Which leads me neatly on to thank Arun for putting me in touch with WHTS, about which I'd been previously unaware. Then further thanks to Adam for the link. Arun - you refer as an example to details for 6670, but in WHTS on line the info is rather briefer than you've suggested. Is that because the hard copies you have are more up to date or complete? I have, of course, looked in to the on line data for 48363 and I'm not finding any reference to Aintree as the last shed from which the loco was withdrawn. There's also some uncertainty about whether the loco was at Buttigiegs in Newport for disposal, even though recorded in the Railway Observer and a Railway Magazine report that it arrived there on 20th June 1968.
There's no doubt that these reports add more grist to the mill and make it easier to challenge and hopefully update other records and my inclination is to rely on info from the SLS, LCGB and Railway Observer/RCTS although doubtless there were a few charlatans within those organisations who were, let's say, less than reliable and open to uttering some terminological inexactitudes. It's my guess that they were probably found out quite quickly, though. I'll also assume that records from Kew, where they exist, can be regarded as a primary source.
For the time being I'll continue to rely on the SLS as a major source but WHTS will now be my primary source in confirming final shed and disposal details where they are missing.
I've run out of time to add photos to this post but hope that I'll be able to do so later.
Brian
Which leads me neatly on to thank Arun for putting me in touch with WHTS, about which I'd been previously unaware. Then further thanks to Adam for the link. Arun - you refer as an example to details for 6670, but in WHTS on line the info is rather briefer than you've suggested. Is that because the hard copies you have are more up to date or complete? I have, of course, looked in to the on line data for 48363 and I'm not finding any reference to Aintree as the last shed from which the loco was withdrawn. There's also some uncertainty about whether the loco was at Buttigiegs in Newport for disposal, even though recorded in the Railway Observer and a Railway Magazine report that it arrived there on 20th June 1968.
There's no doubt that these reports add more grist to the mill and make it easier to challenge and hopefully update other records and my inclination is to rely on info from the SLS, LCGB and Railway Observer/RCTS although doubtless there were a few charlatans within those organisations who were, let's say, less than reliable and open to uttering some terminological inexactitudes. It's my guess that they were probably found out quite quickly, though. I'll also assume that records from Kew, where they exist, can be regarded as a primary source.
For the time being I'll continue to rely on the SLS as a major source but WHTS will now be my primary source in confirming final shed and disposal details where they are missing.
I've run out of time to add photos to this post but hope that I'll be able to do so later.
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I can sort of agree with Arun, 48363 sheds,
Wellingborough 19/8/44
Toton 21/9/57
Annesley 26/12/64
Stored serviceable 14/6/65 - 5/7/65 during which time transferred to Aintree 17/7/65
Stored serviceable 20/12/65 - 31/1/66
Northwich 20/5/67
Wdwn w/e 18/11/67
Irwell book of.
Regards
Martin
Wellingborough 19/8/44
Toton 21/9/57
Annesley 26/12/64
Stored serviceable 14/6/65 - 5/7/65 during which time transferred to Aintree 17/7/65
Stored serviceable 20/12/65 - 31/1/66
Northwich 20/5/67
Wdwn w/e 18/11/67
Irwell book of.
Regards
Martin
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Brian
Looking at the details on the on-line version of WHTS, it is clearly a cut down version in respect of end of year allocations. I should think there would rarely be any doubt as to allocation of a loco. The doubtful areas would be the week in which it was withdrawn, place and duration of storage and site and date of scrapping. It is these latter areas that Peter Hands' website sought to clarify with real life observations.
So I would say that the books give much background information but the website entries can disprove/alter some of the end of life details recorded in print. They are best looked at together.
I am tempted to update my set of books with the observer information in the website as I understand that WHTS on-line is not likely to be updated following Peter's passing.
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
I found these articles published in 2009/10/13 in The Railway Magazine very interesting. It would appear that WHTS series are subject to significant errors.
www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk
all the best
Tim
ESS Articles - What Really Happened to Steam
To assist readers we have reproduced all the articles as they appeared in The Railway Magazine and the Engine Shed Society magazine Link as Adobe PDF files
www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk
all the best
Tim
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
That works well with what I think we know, Martin, although my brain (what there remains of it) is getting progressively frazzled now! Thank you for what amounts to confirmation.
Arun. Thanks to you as well for clarifying the situation. When I put up photos I'll continue to quote the sources of my info and I'll continue to welcome challenges which will promote further discussion.
Tim - bless you! All my stuff is out of the window now.
In fact, since Mickoo kindly suggested that the sources of info should be named I've tried to do that in the knowledge that they are at best secondary sources. Those articles from Railway Magazine are an eye opener to be sure. Peter Hands must have been beside himself with frustration when he discovered there was an individual telling him fairy tales as fact. I suppose one could argue that he should have checked the source with the story teller but that's sometimes difficult.
For me in trying to put a few details to the pictures the news that we can no longer rely on information from the RCTS comes as a bit of a blow. When it's the only source I guess I'll use it, but otherwise (although I acknowledge they are secondary sources) the SLS and LCGB will be preferred whilst recognising that there will be inevitable transcription errors even in their records..
In short, if I'm to get photos out in a timely manner I simply cannot spend several hours on each photo checking one source against all the others, and having discovered a discrepancy what do I do? I'll go to the best source I have - currently often the SLS - and attribute the info accordingly. Where that is not available as a reference I'll go through the BR Database/Rail UK and WHTS sources and see what I can cobble together but providing I always give details of the source I'll continue to expect the very welcome challenges.
Brian
Arun. Thanks to you as well for clarifying the situation. When I put up photos I'll continue to quote the sources of my info and I'll continue to welcome challenges which will promote further discussion.
Tim - bless you! All my stuff is out of the window now.
In fact, since Mickoo kindly suggested that the sources of info should be named I've tried to do that in the knowledge that they are at best secondary sources. Those articles from Railway Magazine are an eye opener to be sure. Peter Hands must have been beside himself with frustration when he discovered there was an individual telling him fairy tales as fact. I suppose one could argue that he should have checked the source with the story teller but that's sometimes difficult. For me in trying to put a few details to the pictures the news that we can no longer rely on information from the RCTS comes as a bit of a blow. When it's the only source I guess I'll use it, but otherwise (although I acknowledge they are secondary sources) the SLS and LCGB will be preferred whilst recognising that there will be inevitable transcription errors even in their records..
In short, if I'm to get photos out in a timely manner I simply cannot spend several hours on each photo checking one source against all the others, and having discovered a discrepancy what do I do? I'll go to the best source I have - currently often the SLS - and attribute the info accordingly. Where that is not available as a reference I'll go through the BR Database/Rail UK and WHTS sources and see what I can cobble together but providing I always give details of the source I'll continue to expect the very welcome challenges.
Brian