Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

I need to access other references but by 1961 most of them had stovepipe chimneys. When the SRPS bought 55189 BR changed the stovepipe for an original lum, I wonder how that happened. At the last overhaul the smokebox and most of the chimney was replaced so it's almost all a 21st century front. I'll see what I can find later this week.
Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

I need to access other references but by 1961 most of them had stovepipe chimneys. When the SRPS bought 55189 BR changed the stovepipe for an original lum, I wonder how that happened. At the last overhaul the smokebox and most of the chimney was replaced so it's almost all a 21st century front. I'll see what I can find later this week.
Martin

I believe that the replacement chimney for 439 came off 55124. This was the last of the earlier Lambie 19 class 0-4-4 tanks. Very similar to the McIntosh engines but with a bunker wider than the cab and with flaired top.

Ian.

 

[Daddyman]

217 had a flat dome top, and a stovepipe. Am I imagining it or is there a sandbox aft of the rear driver? Or is it just drifting steam? That would narrow the batch down.

The fact that Oban had 8 on its books doesn't mean they were all in traffic - in the 1960s there was an ever-lengthening line of stored 439s at Oban shed, some of which hadn't necessarily been officially withdrawn:

https://flic.kr/p/Yhd1uV

 

[MoatLane]

It's possible that it is a special, a few were run using the Crianlarich chord, but it wasn't brought into regular use until the secition between Crianlarich Lower and Callender was closed, even though it was a quicker, and cheaper, route for passengers between Glasgow and Oban.

In LMR June 1950 timetable there's a July and August dated 9.31am Glasgow Queen Street to Oban buffet car train, returning at 6.25pm. The times at Crianlarich are shown as 'West Highland station' in the footnotes.

 

[LarryG]

A bit late to this, but I used Pan-X film only a few times in the search for fine grain. It was 25ASA and hard going in a Medium format camera for moving trains as one can imagine. I hope Mr. Illingworth wont mind me re-processing one of his shots. I made a much lighter shot than this for my own curiosity, as I wanted to know what the coaches were behind the loco. GNoSR I think....

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A bit late to this, but I used Pan-X film only a few times in the search for fine grain. It was 25ASA and hard going in a Medium format camera for moving trains as one can imagine. I hope Mr. Illingworth wont mind me re-processing one of his shots. I made a much lighter shot than this for my own curiosity, as I wanted to know what the coaches were behind the loco. GNoSR I think....

No problem - I've been going through my dads 120, 127 and 35mm negatives taken between 1949 and 1980 and haven't come across this one yet - this was a scan of the print. (The Kyle of Lochalsh photo is from a scanned 127 negative).

 

[Oban27]

217 had a flat dome top, and a stovepipe. Am I imagining it or is there a sandbox aft of the rear driver? Or is it just drifting steam? That would narrow the batch down.

The fact that Oban had 8 on its books doesn't mean they were all in traffic - in the 1960s there was an ever-lengthening line of stored 439s at Oban shed, some of which hadn't necessarily been officially withdrawn:

https://flic.kr/p/Yhd1uV

Hi,

that is a sandbox behind the rear diver. It was added by Pickersgill in his version of the 439.

Roja

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, all, for your continuing efforts. From all the really useful comments it appears that the date is significant and the chimney and dome types are therefore significant. If the loco can be ultimately identified it'll one of the great pieces of detective work!

Larry - I agree that the speed of Panatomic X could be a problem, but, let's face it, the film was never intended for photographing moving trains! It was a great film for portraits, though, and that would include locomotives. At the time many of us were using Kodachrome slide film (25ASA) or Kodacolor negative film (32ASA and later 64ASA). The higher speed Ektachromes were quite useful but the images were known to be less permanent than Kodachrome although mine seem to have survived OK.

Now, continuing the Scottish trip.

First a general view at Connel Ferry on 12th September 1961 with 0-4-4T 55260 approaching in the distance.



Still at Connel Ferry on 12th September 1961 and 55260. This moved to Oban shed in March 1961 and in August 1962 to Perth South from where it was withdrawn at the end of the same year (SLS). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Carmyle, during October 1963.



More modern motive power here with Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 46458 at Connel Ferry on 12th September 1961. That certainly looks as though that's the number on the cab side, but could this be another example of mistaken identity as 46458 was a Kirkby Stephen engine until December 1961 when it moved to Carlisle Upperby? It was withdrawn at the end of December 1966. (SLS). It went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw where it was broken up by the end of May 1967. (Rail UK).

Edit: Actually probably 46468 which was at Oban at the time in question. See further details in posts below.



Here's an interesting one - well, two actually. An NBR 0-4-0 saddle tank from 1890, LNER class Y9 No 68104 at Stewarts & Lloyds Steelworks Yard with "Polmont" on the buffer beam on 13th September 1961. The SLS records this as a Kipps loco from December 1960 but one of the Polmont allocation before that, so I'll guess that the name on the buffer beam was never updated. Somewhat annoyingly the shed plate is obscured. I'll hazard a guess that the loco is on loan to the steelworks. 68104 was one of the last two Y9s working, both from Kipps, the other being 68117. It was finally withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS). It went to Cowlairs Works for disposal which was complete by the end of September 1963. (Rail UK).





Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.

I'm fairly sure the Ivatt 2 is not 46458. It never had the tall thin chimney shown in the photo. This thin type of chimney was fitted to 46465 to 46489. After that, a tall but fatter, BR Standard profile chimney was fitted and also retro-fitted to some earlier short, fat chimneyed locos.
Of the thin chimney locos, 46468 was shedded at Oban from July 1961 to July 1962, so that might be the best bet.
Dave.

 

[Daddyman]

Brian.

I'm fairly sure the Ivatt 2 is not 46458. It never had the tall thin chimney shown in the photo. This thin type of chimney was fitted to 46465 to 46489. After that, a tall but fatter, BR Standard profile chimney was fitted and also retro-fitted to some earlier short, fat chimneyed locos.
Of the thin chimney locos, 46468 was shedded at Oban from July 1961 to July 1962, so that might be the best bet.
Dave.

Agreed. And 46468 was used on the Ballachulish job; photos of it exist on that duty. It had the OHL flashes in the same position too.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave and Daddyman. I've checked Tim's book in case I made a transposition error but he's definitely recorded 46458. I suspected this was wrong and I reckon we can be safe in calling it 46468 - the SLS shows it at Oban by September 1961 but it ended up at Grangemouth by the end of September 1963 by way of Perth South. It was withdrawn from Grangemouth in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped by the end of February 1966 at Campbells, Airdrie. (Rail UK). All new info now added to the photo.

Fairburn 2-6-4Ts 42060 and 42244 on suburban trains at Glasgow Central on 13th September 1961. 42060 was a Polmadie engine until October 1961 when it moved to Greenock Ladyburn. It's last shed was Beattock from where it was withdrawn in April 1965. (BR Database/SLS). It went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw for dismantling which was completed by the end of July the same year. 42244 was always a Polmadie engine being withdrawn from there in June 1964. (BR Database). It also went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap where it was reduced to its component parts by the end of the following September. (Rail UK).



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73056 on a suburban working at Paisley St James on 13th September 1961. This had been a Polmadie engine since 1954 but eventually moved to Aberdeen Ferryhill from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It went to Arnold Young at Old Kilpatrick where it was scrapped in September 1965. (BR Database).



Black 5 45490 on a Glasgow - Gourock non stop at Shields Road on 13th September 1961. In 1961 it's home shed was Ardrossan but it moved around a bit afterwards and ended up at Motherwell from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1966. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was broken up by the end of June 1967.



This is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42246 on a parcels train at Shields Road on 13th September 1961. This was always a Polmadie engine and was withdrawn in June 1964, (BR Database/SLS) then going to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw where it was scrapped by the end of September. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

It being a day when the rainfall reached near biblical proportions it seemed a good idea to chase the errant 439 class and see if I could narrow it down. The known facts are that it has a stovepipe chimney, a round top dome cover, two coal rails on the bunker, rear driving wheel sanding, and what appears to be an oval worksplate. This will of course be a LMS built St Rollox one that replaced the original CR one in the same location until later LMS and BR days when it was moved low down on the bunker side to allow the loco number to be painted on.

Attached is a PDF which takes as it's starting point the locomotives that were fitted with rear sanding. Apart from the first one of the 1913 batch, for no obvious reason, they are all the locos produced under Pickersgill and also the Nasmyth Wilson built ones for the LMS. The date of the photograph, 12th September 1961 means the red ones were withdrawn before that date. The ones in blue were at least nominally still in traffic but I have discounted them on geographical grounds, derived from published info in various sources. This as can be seen leaves a choice of 6 shedded at either Perth South or Oban. Working backwards the ones from my research that can be discounted are, 55263 has more than 2 coal rails and a triangular worksplate, 55260 triangular worksplate, 55238 retained original chimney, 55230 retained original chimney. This leaves 55217 and 55233 which were both Perth engines in Sept 61 and had all the other correct attributes, and of those two I think 55233 is more likely as it is nearer the originally reported wrong number of 55253 in post #1625. I can't claim that this isn't without some semi educated guesswork, but it does all fit. I would welcome cross examination of my evidence.
Regards
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

Further stuff on other pics. 46458 was never a ScR engine being shedded at Crewe Nth, Workington, Willesden, Kirkby Stephen, and Carlisle Upperby, which is where it was in Sept 61. 46468 was, as others noted, being transferred fronm the ER at Cambridge in March 61, prior to which it had been at Colchester, Parkeston Quay, and Stratford.

Shields Road looks nothing like that today, it is the road on the overbridge in the background. It is perhaps not known in districts to the south of here that there were in fact 3 stations at Shields Road, none of which now exist. Pollokshields on the Glasgow & Paisley Joint (Central to Paisley, Shields Road on the City Union (St Enoch to Paisley), and Shields on the G&SW to Paisley Canal. The LMS amalgamated the three stations as one entity called Shields Road in 1925 and BR closed them all on the 14/2/66 as a prelude to electrification.

The Black 5 is on a St Enoch to Gourock working on the City Union. the Fairburn tank and train is probably going from Salkeld St parcels depot on the Glasgow & Paisley Joint. In the right backround behind the Fairburn tank is the GSW station. I never actually saw it all but photographs suggest it was a midden and by the end it didn't really serve much , the M8 is at the bottom of Shields Rd and Scotland St on the Undergorund is only 5 minutes walk
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This leaves 55217 and 55233 which were both Perth engines in Sept 61 and had all the other correct attributes, and of those two I think 55233 is more likely as it is nearer the originally reported wrong number of 55253 in post #1625

Hi Martin

I've taken your list as a starting point for some t'interweb searches on the six locos you've identified in black type using the chimney and coal rails as attributes to try and narrow down the loco.

55217 (1960 photo found) - stovepipe chimney; 2 coal rails on bunker
55230 (1959 photo found) - capped chimney; 2 coal rails on bunker
55233 (1960 photo found) - stovepipe chimney; 2 coal rails on bunker
55238 (1960 photo found) - capped chimney; 2 coal rails and extra coal boards on bunker
55260 (1962 photo found) - capped chimney; 2 coal rails on bunker
55263 (1961 photo found) - stovepipe chimney; 5 coal rails on bunker

Based on this and your findings and observation of it's closeness to the recorded number I would concur the loco is 55233. Like yours, my quick bit of research are by no means exhaustive.

As you have noted 55217 is the other possibility - in one way it's a shame the cab door is open in the photo as the number shapes would have clinched it despite the image being slightly blurred.

 

[Daddyman]

of those two I think 55233 is more likely as it is nearer the originally reported wrong number of 55253 in post #1625.

Very compelling evidence. And as seen with the 2MT, Tim seems to have "form" when it comes to misrecording the 4th digit of a loco's number...

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Martin, for the additional "top up" info about 46458 which I've now suggested, in the title, is probably the real number. Also re Shields Road and the Black 5.

Thanks to you and also Dave for the work in narrowing down the possibilities for the CR 0-4-4T. I'll go for 55217 or 55233 as the likely number and will add this as probables in the description. The only thing that still may mitigate against this a bit is that 55233 was withdrawn on 15th September 1961 from Perth South after a period in store from the beginning of July (SLS) although BR Database advises withdrawal from Oban on the same date. The photo was taken only two days previously. The SLS recorded it at Perth on 20th February 1961 and cut up at Inverurie by 10th March 1962. Rail UK says it was withdrawn from Perth South on 30th September 1961 which makes a sighting earlier in the same month just about possible. None of these are primary sources except arguably the SLS, of course, so have to be treated with some caution. On the other hand 55217 was at Perth South in September but moved to Oban in October and was not withdrawn until the end of July 1962 (SLS). It also went to Inverurie Works for disposal which was completed by the end of September 1962. (Rail UK). 55217 was recorded as in use on the Aberfeldy Branch on 20th February 1961 by the SLS so I'm wondering whether this may be a more likely candidate as the dates are more conducive to the time Tim saw this loco.

Your comment is actually quite apposite, Daddyman. I'm starting to wonder whether Tim was a bit dyslexic, if it's possible to be dyslexic by degrees. I'd never noticed it over many years of talking to him but sometimes his accounting and cashing up on the GCR Sales stand and, I'm told, also in the booking office on the GCR could be a bit "original", although the numbers always came out right. There's also the more likely explanation that the notes were transcribed from a contemporaneous original and transcription errors occurred. If this was at a distance in time it may also account for the occasional errors in location.

Whatever happened, as we all agree, Tim has left us a remarkable archive and I for one am more than happy to forgive the errors.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Two pictures of Class 439 No 55221 on empty stock at Shields Road on 13th September 1961. It was a Corkerhill loco at the time from where it was withdrawn only a month later. (SLS). It went to Connell's at Coatbridge where it was scrapped by the end of September 1963. (Rail UK).





Here's Crab 42738 on a freight at Shields Road Low Level on 13th September 1961. It was a Polmadie engine, moving to Stranraer in April 1962 from where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS). It then went to Connel's at Coatbridge where it was scrapped by the end of August.



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42175 on a Paisley Line Local at Shields Road Low Level on 13th September 1961. The evidence says this started life at Forfar (Rail UK) and was then a Greenock Ladyburn engine for the remainder of it's life being withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to Connel's at Coatbridge where it was scrapped by the end of August 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

NBR 0-6-2T LNER Class N15/1 No 69178 on a freight at Motherwell Station on 13th September 1961. Whilst t was shedded at Hamilton West at the time of the photo it moved to Motherwell in December 1962 from where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It went to Cowlairs Works for disposal which was completed in October 1963. (BR Databse).



Tim has recorded this as WD 2-10-0 90771 light engine at Motherwell Station on 13th September 1961 when it's clearly on a freight. I suspect this is one of the photos he never had printed, hence the description from viewing just the negative. This was a Motherwell engine at the time finally withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to Darlington Works for scrapping which had occurred by the end of 1963.



Crab 42882 on an Eastbound freight at Rutherglen on 13th September 1961. It appears to have been a Carlisle Kingmoor engine since 1948 and was withdrawn from there at the end of 1962. (BR Database). It went to J Mcwilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of November 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

CR 264 Class 0-4-0ST 56031 with wooden tender at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. It was shedded at Motherwell in 1961, stored there from July and was withdrawn at the beginning of April 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cowlairs Works by the end of October 1962. (Rail UK).



Another Caledonian engine, in this case 294 Class 0-6-0 57303 seen here shunting stock at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. It had been at Motherwell since 1947 and was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Connels, Coatbridge, by the end of November 1962. (Rail UK)



A Fairburn 2-6-4T No 42699 on a Carstairs - Glasgow local on 13th September 1961. It was a Motherwell engine between December 1954 and January 1962. Thereafter it moved around a bit and was finally at Holbeck from June 1966. It was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper's, Hull, by the end of October the same year. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Another Caledonian engine, in this case 294 Class 0-6-0 57303 seen here shunting stock at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1962. It had been at Motherwell since 1947 and was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Connels, Coatbridge, by the end of November 1962. (Rail UK)

Brian,

The withdrawal date in the post looks suspicious by comparison with the date of the photograph.... one of the dates for the photograph and for withdrawal needs correction.

regards, Graham