Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks Graham.

You may be right, but the date of the photo seems to chime quite well with other evidence, like the saddle tank in store at Motherwell. Running locos into withdrawal is not without precedent. I travelled on an excursion to Ashford from Charing Cross in the early '60s behind E1 31019 which went straight in to Ashford works and was withdrawn - in fact I'm pretty sure Tim has a photo of the very engine at Ashford shortly after it arrived. I'm as comfortable as I can be about the date of the photo of 57303. BR Database and SLS give the date of withdrawal as 25th October and Rail UK as 31st October so their sources must be considered independent of one another although whether any of them can be considered primary sources is another issue.. However we have seen some transposition of loco numbers previously and we have to consider that as a possibility.

At the moment I'll leave the info as it stands, but if anyone can provide info from a primary source we can reconsider - and thanks for taking the time to question the info.

Brian

 

[daifly]

Another Caledonian engine, in this case 294 Class 0-6-0 57303 seen here shunting stock at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1962. It had been at Motherwell since 1947 and was withdrawn in October 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Connels, Coatbridge, by the end of November 1962. (Rail UK)

Brian

I think Graham was drawing your attention to your caption which suggessts that the loco was still in use 11 months after withdrawal!

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave - and my apologies, Graham. The reason for your message was hidden in plain sight and I absolutely missed it.

Duly corrected and with grateful thanks.

Brian

 

[Gadgie]

CR 264 Class 0-4-0ST 56031 with wooden tender at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. It was shedded at Motherwell in 1961, stored there from July and was withdrawn at the beginning of April 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cowlairs Works by the end of October 1962. (Rail UK).

The makeshift wooden tender is an absolute gem — it even appears to have two separate compartments, but I can’t think of a good reason for this except to keep the coal (which doesn’t look great quality) in easy reach for the fireman. I also wonder exactly how the coal was conveyed into the firebox…

 

[oldravendale]

I can't think of a reason for the two compartments either. However, these wooden tenders were not terribly unusual attached to the small saddle tanks. I guess they allowed the loco to be away from a shed for longer than would otherwise be possible.

Here's a Black 5, No 45081 on a westbound freight at Motherwell on 13th September 1961. I don't have evidence of the loco's allocation in 1961 but in 1948 and 1958 it was Carlisle Kingmoor although it was at Carlisle Upperby in March 1962. It shuffled between Kingmoor an Upperby and was withdrawn from Upperby in October 1965. The 1958 allocation is from a Locoshed Book and all other data from SLS. It went to Campbells at Airdrie where it was scrapped by the end of March 1966. (Rail UK).

And here's a bit of extraneous info: 45081 was the first locomotive to bear the words "British Railways" on the tender which was applied at St Rollox Works when seen on 2nd February. (SLS).



Clan Pacific 72001 Clan Cameron light engine at Motherwell on 13th September 1961. It belonged to Polmadie from which it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). (I remember at the time, notwithstanding the relatively poor reputation of this class, I couldn't quite appreciate that such modern engines were being withdrawn. I now understand the mechanisms which applied. } It went to Darlington to be scrapped which was completed in September 1963 (BR Database).



Caledonian Railway Class 300 No 57681 at Motherwell Shed Yard on 13th September 1961. It was a Stirling engine when Tim photographed it. (BR Database). It was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped during June 1964 at Arnott Young at Carmyle. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

I remember at the time, notwithstanding the relatively poor reputation of this class, I couldn't quite appreciate that such modern engines were being withdrawn. I now understand the mechanisms which applied.

Do please tell all.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
45081 was built by Vulcan Foundry in 1935 and after it's first few months was resolutely a Scottish engine for virtually all it's life. Crewe 16/3/35, Bushbury 20/4/35, Crewe 4/5/35, Perth 16/11/35, St Rollox (should really be called Balornock, St Rollox was only the name of the works until well into BR days) 22/7/39, Perth 30/3/40, St Rollox 20/4/40, Perth 20/8/41, Kingmoor 18/11/44, Upperby 10/2/62, Kingmoor 22/2/63, Upperby 27/6/64, Wdn 16/10/65. Kingmoor was from 1948 a ScR shed which was transferred to the LMR in perhaps the late 50's. Nonetheless it and Upperby seemd to function much as they had in LMS days. Certainly the ScR management were much more active than their LM counterparts in ridding themselves of steam power although when the Polmadie Clans were withdrawn Carlisle wanted them but were not permitted to have them. They rather liked them on the Port Road where they were perhaps ideal, bigger than a Black 5, and once you accepted that they wouldn't perform as a Britannia seemed perfectly acceptable locos.

It and its train are passing Lesmahagow Junc signal box which controlled the branch to Mossend/Coatbridge and the CR route to Edinburgh via Shotts, from the WCML to Glasgow. Where it's going is difficult to determine but given the brake van in the formation and lack of a suitable headcode suggests a local destination for remarshalling. I think calling it westbound is chancing it since the line is more or less due north/south at this point.

The Clan looks as though it's coming off shed, certainly it's on the shed in/out road, the road crossing above it is Muir Street which becomes Bellshill Rd, and at that time a major road to the north from Mwell. Quite why its been or going on shed at Motherwell mystifies me, perhaps the Polmadie shed foreman used as a filling in turn. In connection with this point there was for many years a morning goods from Cadder yard to Bo'ness and return for which Eastfield supplied the loco. Just about anything that was lying around unused at the shed powered this train, when the K4s were still allocated to Eastfield they all turned up at Bo'ness at some time for example.

The 812 is on the up line from Mossend and is possibly a light engine for Mwell shed which is obviously in the background. It could have accessed the shed layout from the other end but perhaps since the turntable is at this end of the shed operational convenience prevailed.

The building behind the Clan says Chicago Brick something, my wife who was born in Motherwell doesn't recognise the name although she was very young when the picture was taken. I have another friend who has known the well for nearly 80 years, he'll probably know.

Regards
Martin

 

[Lyndhurstman]

The makeshift wooden tender is an absolute gem — it even appears to have two separate compartments, but I can’t think of a good reason for this except to keep the coal (which doesn’t look great quality) in easy reach for the fireman. I also wonder exactly how the coal was conveyed into the firebox…

Hello @Gadgie
I would suggest part of the role of the loco would be something of a Thunderbird, so I would presume the second compartment to contain tools etc required perhaps for re-railing (skids, maybe jacks etc.).

Cheers

Jan

 

[Dave F.]

Can I clear up the Chicago Brid.... name on the building behind the Clan. Chicago Bridge and Engineering Co. Was later called Motherwell Bridge and Engineering Co. Everyone would know that name in the area. I worked there for a time when they 'took over' our wee company. I have the book done for Motherwell Bridge given to all the employees somewhere if people want more detail, they did a lot of railway engineering like Glasgow Central station.
The Clan is definately leaving the shed as it's in forward gear.

Cheers,
Dave.

 

[hrmspaul]

Two photos in a few days with Conflat Ls as the first wagons in a train - vacuum braked. 45081 yesterday and 69178 on Saturday. L containers had various uses, including cement but probably for limestone to the steel works.

Paul

 

[oldravendale]

Cor! What a lot of lovely stuff.

To start with what should probably be hair shirt time. Dear Dog Star, my comment was rather throw away and I should have qualified it. It's based on my memory in the early 60s of bringing a Clan down to the GER to try it out and it wasn't liked a lot. That could be entirely the result of those GER men being used to their Britannias and finding the Clan a bit underpowered. As Martin points out Polmadie rather liked their Clans so I've given myself 100 lines - "don't take hearsay as fact".

Martin. Thanks for loads of info there. I've added it appropriately. In fact it looks as though my info about the allocation of that Black 5 in 1961 was probably correct. The identification of locations is particularly valuable.

Jan - to call a CR saddle tank a Thunderbird made me smile. However, I understand the concept and suspect that you may be absolutely correct.

Dave - thanks for the info about Chicago Brid. That's a pretty primary source!

Paul - thanks for the info on those wagons. I'd noticed them but couldn't describe them. I also notice the brake van immediately after them. Would that be the point at which the rearmost wagons were separated and the Conflats continued on their own?

A general view of Loco Shed & Yard at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. Two WD 2-10-0s in attendance.



Two pictures of Caledonian Class 782 0-6-0T No 56356 shunting at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. It had been a Motherwell engine for ever and was withdrawn in December of the same year Tim photographed it. (SLS) It went to McClellans at Coatbridge for destruction which was complete in November 1962. (Rail UK).





Here's another view of "Thunderbird" )) 56031 with wooden tender at Motherwell MPD on 13th September 1961. See post #1659 for details.




Brian

 

[AJC]

Nice picture of E200384 (what do you mean, the wagon isn’t the subject?!), an LNER dia. 091 - an all wooden design - showing a very recent repair/improvement in the form of the steel channel in place of the bottom two end planks. The fresh paint on the ironwork highlights how scruffy, but otherwise sound, the wagon was. Note that the channel itself seems not to have been painted, but the door catches (presumably overhauled) have, which is a detail I’m not sure I’d invent on a model - but we’re all free to emulate it now!

The other wagon picture shows M123756 and is a nice portrait of one of the 50-odd thousand LMS dia. 1666. Again, some fresh touching up of metalwork around the side knees, but otherwise - as these all-wood wagons often were - more or less devoid of paint.

Thank you once again, Brian.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just a wee bit more to add to Dave's info. Apparently the Chicago Bridge Co licenced Motherwell Bridge to produce structures to their design, presumably in the post war years the idea of a US company setting up business in the UK was probably a bit beyond the pail. It doesn't fully explain it but there we are. My friend knew exactly what it was when I described the location and when I told my wife it was Motherwell Bridge I was given a list of her current and past relations who live or lived in that part of the town. In the pic of the 812 we believe the building in the background to be Findlay's Bridge Works, apart from the essential double track running lines virtually everything else has disappeared under rows and rows of brick boxes euphemistically described as houses.

The coal stage with the 782 confuses slightly, it looks like the south coaling facility but the signalbox in the background is I think Motherwell Workshops box which closed in 1948. That it was still standing in 1961 is unsurprising, but it seems too close. It does mean the the northern entrance to the shed had also been closed so the route of the 812 earlier is perhaps less speculative.
Regards
Martin

 

[Overseer]

Nice picture of E200384 (what do you mean, the wagon isn’t the subject?!), an LNR dia. 091 - an all wooden design - showing a very recent repair/improvement in the form of the steel channel in place of the bottom two end planks. The fresh pair on the ironwork highlights how scruffy, but otherwise sound - the wagon was. Note that the channel itself seems not to have been painted, but the door catches (presumably overhauled) have, which is a detail I’m not sure I’d invent on a model - but we’re all free to emulate it now!

The other wagon picture shows M123756 and is a nice portrait of one of the 50-odd thousand LMS dia. 1666. Again, some fresh touching up of metalwork around the side knees, but otherwise - as these all-wood wagons often were - more or less devoid of paint.

Thank you once again, Brian.

Adam

I agree, useful wagon photos. I have been expecting a comment with more information about the Southern Railway Insul-meat at Kyle of Lochalsh posted by Yorkshire Dave a couple of pages ago.

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Nice picture of E200384 (what do you mean, the wagon isn’t the subject?!), an LNR dia. 091 - an all wooden design - showing a very recent repair/improvement in the form of the steel channel in place of the bottom two end planks. The fresh pair on the ironwork highlights how scruffy, but otherwise sound - the wagon was. Note that the channel itself seems not to have been painted, but the door catches (presumably overhauled) have, which is a detail I’m not sure I’d invent on a model - but we’re all free to emulate it now!

The other wagon picture shows M123756 and is a nice portrait of one of the 50-odd thousand LMS dia. 1666. Again, some fresh touching up of metalwork around the side knees, but otherwise - as these all-wood wagons often were - more or less devoid of paint.

Thank you once again, Brian.

Adam

Ah… someone else watching for wagons. I thought it was just me

Cheers

Jan

 

[AJC]

My Dad was in the same area four years earlier in 1957 when he was based in Scotland. He took these two of Caley 439 class 0-4-4Ts.

55216 with a standard chimney at Kyle of Lochalsh.

View attachment 171804


55215 (63D, Oban) with a stovepipe chimney at Ballachulish. On the back of this photo are his notes: VP Exakta f2.8 Tessar, 1/250 f8, Orange filter, 02/07/1957, 15:55 BST, Cloudy, Pan X, Capitol (which I assume is the film developer he used).

View attachment 171803

I agree, useful wagon photos. I have been expecting a comment with more information about the Southern Railway Insul-meat at Kyle of Lochalsh posted by Yorkshire Dave a couple of pages ago.

I confess that I missed that first time around - a good spot! It's a dia. 1477 - Mike King in SR Wagons Pictorial, notes that he'd only seen one image of these in traffic (from 1936) so this is an extremely unusual image. It's very similar, of course, to the dia. 1378 banana vans Adrian Swain used to do in 4mm, or that PECO/Parkside do in 7mm just with a 9' rather than a 10' wheelbase and vertical, rather than horizontal planking. The distinctive SR 8 shoe brake is a nice feature, and the black lettering shows that the (filthy) wagon was white.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Once again, chaps, thanks for keeping the ball rolling.

This is one loco I was truly hoping Tim had photographed while in Scotland - it was something of a Holy Grail for those of us living in the South East. It's Royal Scot 46102, Black Watch and is photographed here on the 10.20 am departure for Euston at Glasgow Central on 13th September 1961. It was alleged to have made a trip south just once although I've never seen first hand confirmation that this ever took place. It was a Polmadie engine for its entire life and BR Database shows it to have been withdrawn from there on 29th December 1962. Rail UK agrees. However the SLS advises that it was transferred to Corkerhill on 19th November 1962. It was certainly recorded in store at Corkerhill on 14th April 1963. Ultimately it went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was despatched by the end of May 1964.





Rebuilt Patriot 45522 Prestatyn with a good head of steam on the 10.45am Manchester via Kilmarnock alongside Clan 72002 Clan Campbell on the 10.53am Liverpool via Carlisle at Glasgow Central on 13th September 1961. The Clan was a Polmadie engine and was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to Darlington Works where it was scrapped in September 1963. (BR Database). The Patriot had been a Kentish Town engine, theoretically until the end of September 1961 when it went to Newton Heath although the fact that it's recorded in Glasgow earlier in the month suggests that the actual date of moving was probably somewhat earlier. (Dates of allocations tended to be period ends so the move may well have been earlier in the month). (SLS). Its final shed was Longsight from where it was withdrawn in September 1964 and went to Central Wagon Co, Ince, Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of June 1965. (Rail UK)



Caledonian Railway Class 315 No 57291 on a freight Eastbound through Motherwell on 13th September 1961. This was a Motherwell engine at the time, briefly moving to Beattock and then back to Motherwell from where it was withdrawn in August 1963. (SLS). It went to T W Ward at Inverkeithing where it was scrapped by the end of March 1964. (Rail UK).





Black 5 45479 on a Perth to Manchester train at Motherwell on 13th September 1961. This was a Perth South loco at the time, moving around a bit but always in Scotland before ending up at Ardrossan from where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was disposed of at Connels, Coatbridge, by the end of October the same year. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
The pics supposely at Rutherglen aren't, it's still Motherwell.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Martin - thank you. Duly edited and corrected. Thank you for keeping me on the straight and narrow. We need to interrogate all these descriptions, I think.

Brian

 

[Lyndhurstman]

.....
Rebuilt Patriot 45522 Prestatyn with a good head of steam on the 10.45am Manchester via Kilmarnock alongside Clan 72002 Clan Campbell on the 10.53am Liverpool via Carlisle at Glasgow Central on 13th September 1961. The Clan was a Polmadie engine and was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to Darlington Works where it was scrapped in September 1963. (BR Database). The Patriot had been a Kentish Town engine, theoretically until the end of September 1961 when it went to Newton Heath although the fact that it's recorded in Glasgow earlier in the month suggests that the actual date of moving was probably somewhat earlier. (Dates of allocations tended to be period ends so the move may well have been earlier in the month). (SLS). Its final shed was Longsight from where it was withdrawn in September 1964 and went to Central Wagon Co, Ince, Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of June 1965. (Rail UK)

View attachment 172759

A fascintating photo. For all the wrong reasons You can almost hear the echo of those safety valves lifting. And the draped sheet over the platform - presumably to catch stuff falling from the roof.. And whatever that is propped agaainst the van/coach of the train behind the Clan.. marvellous.

Cheers

Jan