Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
It may be the borough of Haringey, but the railway stations are Harringay, and you a Londoner as well!

My memory suggests we discussed allocations to New England before, it may even have been about N2s but I think the conclusion was as an allocation where there was storage space prior to withdrawal.

The B1 mishap has the look of buffer locking but beyond that?
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Tim had Haringay in his descriptions which I corrected to Harringey - but only after looking it up on Google! (In fact I can't remember ever visiting Harringay personally. My route to the city was usually Hampstead/Regents Park/Baker Street). How confusing can things be made to be? All now re-corrected. And thanks, Martin. Also for the other comments. I also wonder whether New England was a concentration depot for withdrawn locos as happened on other regions like Salisbury on the Southern so you may well be correct.

9F 92146 on an up coal train at Harringay West on 27 February 1962. It was a New England engine but moved around a bit before ending up at Doncaster in December/January 1965/6 from where it was withdrawn in April 1966. (SLS). It went to W George at Station Steel, Wath for scrapping which was complete during June 1966. (BR Database).



This an A1, 60136 Alcazar on a down express at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. It was a Doncaster engine at the time being withdrawn from there on 22nd May 1963. (SLS). It lasted barely a week thereafter being scrapped by 29th May. (BR Database).



Here's another parallel experience before I knew Tim. We were both here at the same time as I remember well the two Princesses in store which must have been after withdrawal which is suggested by the absence of nameplates. First is Princess Class 46205 Princess Victoria and 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught in store at Willesden on 24th February 1962. 46207 was recorded as only a few weeks out of shops when in store at Willesden by the SLS on 1st April 1961 and we expected to see a couple of years of work out of it at least. It was gone by the year end - see post #1404. 46205 was withdrawn from Willesden by the year end too, and went to Crewe for disposal which was complete by the end of May 1962. (SLS and BR Database). Both 46205 and 46207 were recorded by the SLS as "awaiting works" at Crewe on 8th April 1962 but that was clearly not to be.



46207 in the same location, same date.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

9F 92146 on an up coal train at Haringay West on 27 February 1962.

View attachment 173925

No comment on the caption - well maybe some clarification / explanation is required. Just look at the "coal wagons"; not your usual rust bucket 16T minerals, the leading wagon looks like a 21T (could this be an ex-GWR version?).

Now look further back - a rake of bogie wagons so something more than just house coal. Each of those bogie wagons appears to be sheeted and just how many standard sheets are required for each of those wagons? Why would anyone think that sheeting house a load of coal was necessary? So are those bogie wagons carrying something other than coal?

regards, Graham

 

[AJC]

9F 92146 on an up coal train at Haringay West on 27 February 1962. It was a New England engine but moved around a bit before ending up at Doncaster in December/January 1965/6 from where it was withdrawn in April 1966. (SLS). It went to W George at Station Steel, Wath for scrapping which was complete during June 1966. (BR Database).

Interesting bogie opens behind the 9F - not coal, and not the LNER brick opens (as @hrmspaul shows: LNER Open Merchandise wagons - wooden bodied OWV ZGV KSV ZGO ZRV | E451025_GNR_brick__m_) but the bogie Sulphate types Parkside produced as a kit a long, long time ago: BR 16ton Mineral Wagon

I've not knowingly seen a picture of these before so that's a minor revelation. Thanks Tim, and thank you Brian.

Adam

 

[Overseer]

The sheeted bogie wagons look like they may be carrying bundles of waste paper for recycling heading to Sittingbourne or one of the other paper mills in Kent. I am not sure which mills made card packaging board which consumed lots of recycled paper. The 21T could also be loaded with waste paper bales, and it does look like it is an ex GWR Felix Pole wagon - a closer view would confirm if it has the characteristic 45 degree angle copings.

btw the stations are Harringay with double r as Martin noted.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Regarding the A1/2 puzzle - the tender is a Darlington tender i.e., smooth sided. 60536 has rivetted tenders in all the pics I've seen of her and like most Peppercorn A2s was a scottish engine for most of its life [moving to York for the last year of its life in Dec 62]. Alcazar [60136] was a Darlington-built engine and had the smooth sided tender and was never shedded North of Leeds in its entire life - Normally being at Doncaster or Kings Cross. Hence I would put my money on 60136.

 

[Mick B]

Interesting bogie opens behind the 9F - not coal, and not the LNER brick opens (as @hrmspaul shows: LNER Open Merchandise wagons - wooden bodied OWV ZGV KSV ZGO ZRV | E451025_GNR_brick__m_) but the bogie Sulphate types Parkside produced as a kit a long, long time ago: BR 16ton Mineral Wagon

I've not knowingly seen a picture of these before so that's a minor revelation. Thanks Tim, and thank you Brian.

Adam

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Sulphate wagons finished their days hauling rubbish from the London area (the Ashburton Grove Pullman) to a tip on the GN Welwyn-Luton/Dunstable branch, I think the tip was near Wheathampstead. That would explain why the wagons were sheeted as they appear to be loaded but there is a big 'but' - the loaded trains to the tip would be on the down and not the up as the caption states so I'm probably talking a load of rubbish! (excuse the pun).
Regards, Mick.

 

[Arun Sharma]

The pictures of 46205 and 46207 show the differences between Princess Victoria [46205] and the rest of the class very well. This engine had the two inside sets of Walschaerts motion removed and rocking levers fitted. Although the motion was reinstated in 1955 the heavy outside motion brackets were retained and those show up well on both photographs.

 

[Roger Pound]

Regarding the A1/A2 query - I agree with Arun and would add that the cab-side digits, although clearly not properly legible do appear to have to '0' very close to the '3' . This would seem to imply a '1' could appear between them, whereas the spacing precludes the questioned digit as being a '5'. Or am I just being too clever for my own good.......?

Thoroughly enjoyed the selection again - I was reminded of the brief stay of N2's at Grantham on station pilot duties as they seemed to work their way up the ECML to the eventual cutters torch. This station duty was carried out by Ivatt C12's on my first visit to that location as a young school-boy many, many years ago.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Graham, Adam, Overseer and Mick (that's not rubbish!) for the info about the train behind the 9F. This is now part of the detailed description. Also, Overseer for your most apposite correction to Harringay. I'm going back to correct that again now - third time lucky, I suppose.

Arun, thanks for sorting the A1/A2 question. I should really be able to separate them, one from the other, by now. Thanks also for the comments on the Princesses. That's new info to me and just goes to show how unobservant I am - I'd never noticed that difference until you pointed it out.

Thanks, Roger, for joining the A1/A2 discussion. I'm not entirely alone in being unable to tell the two apart - even Tim, a lifelong LNER enthusiast has this in his note book as "A1 or A2" although in his defence he was never a number taker, just forever searching for that "perfect shot". However, 60136 it now is. Thanks for your memories of N2s and C12s as well.

The coaling plant at Willesden on 24th February 1962 with the standard fare of Black 5s and 8Fs in attendance. There's a Class 24 lurking there in the background as well.



Britannia 70046 Anzac at Willesden on 24th February 1962. It was a Willesden engine at the time but coming to the end of it's tenure there as it moved to Aston at the end of April. Thereafter it wandered around the West Coast sheds, finally being at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It went to Campbells at Airdrie where it was scrapped during November.


Stanier 2-6-4T 42470 at Willesden on 24th February 1962. It was a Willesden engine, withdrawn in the September of the year the photo was taken. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped during January 1963.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

The 8F in the coaling plant picture might be 48601. I remember watching a VHS video some years ago of a shed visit to 1A and I was quite surprised to see a star marked [below the number on the cab] 8F with one of the old 3500gallon Fowler tenders. I'm pretty sure it was 48601 in the film and I think both 48601 and 48603 were 1A engines around that time. Having said that, Willesden also had the odd Jubilee with a Fowler tender as well.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Arun. I'll add that to the file about that particular photo on the understanding that it's "calculated guesswork".

View of Kilburn High Road Station viewed in the up direction on 16th March 1962 with an unidentified Standard Class 5 4-6-0 passing on a down train.



Black 5 4-6-0 45349 on a Euston to Bletchley local at Kilburn High Road on 16th March 1962. It belonged to Aston at the time and, as with so many Black 5s, then moved around the system ending up at Crewe South from where it was withdrawn at the end of November 1967. (BR Database, Rail UK and WHTS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in March 1968, although WHTS record this as May 1968.



Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier on a down Windermere at Kilburn High Road on 16th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine, and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe where it was scrapped in November 1963.





Stanier 4MT 2-6-4T 42616 on a local train at Kilburn High Road on 16th March 1962. This was very local to me, being based at Watford. It then moved around ending up at Low Moor where it was withdrawn at the end of September 1967. (SLS) It was scrapped at Drapers of Hull at the end of March 1968. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

Those glorious LMS lamps are fab.

 

[Dave Holt]

The caption for the first photo (BR Std 5) had me a bit confused. It looks to me like the photograph was taken looking in the up direction but the train is on the down slow line - almost the same viewpoint as the Black5, first Scot and Stanier tank photos, all described as down trains.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave. Re-reading the caption (taken direct from Tim's notes) I now realise that it's ambiguous. You are quite right - Tim is looking in the up direction but the train is on the down slow line. I'll edit it and try to make more sense of it.

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I do agree with the phrase regarding the move of Royal Scots to Annesley. It was a sad fact that the Stanier locomotives drafted in to work the then dying GC London Extension services (Royal Scots, Rebuilt Jubilees and Black 5's) were not well thought of and better appreciated. A shame really as when serviced and handled properly, the 'Scots' could put up just as sparkling performances (IMHO) as B1's and V2's formerly employed. This was was shown when they were transferred to the Midland main line.
I appreciate that opinions may differ on this but having experienced some brisk runs behind rebuilt Royal Scots from St Pancras to Leicester on a number of occasions and observed the lethargic running of similar locos with steam leaking from all ports on the former GC services I contend that I have some justification for my views.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

I agree, Roger. It was a sad end for a magnificent class of engines - I think it was Mickoo on this channel who remarked a while ago that they would not infrequently be worked successfully on West Coast Princess Coronation schedules.

Not surprisingly with such a large collection neg strips sometimes got mixed up which is what's happened here. Also a change in service. Rather than expect interested parties to go back to previous postings I'll do that myself and copy the details across. Now this thread is assuming gigantic proportions it seems less than sensible to expect participants to go back through reams of entries to find a particular one, so let's just see how this goes.

To start with today is a loco we saw very recently - in fact in post #1740. It's the same train with N2 0-6-2T 69535 on a local freight at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in May 1962. (BR Database). The SLS says it was further allocated to Doncaster in June 1962 (or was it sent there prior to scrapping?). In any event both agree that it was withdrawn in September 1962. Rail UK agrees that the last shed was New England and that it was at Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in February 1963.



Tim has recorded this as Britannia 70021 Morning Star on an up Cleethorpes at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. However, 70021 was always either Western or London Midland Region so its presence on a LNER train seems unlikely. On interrogating the image it looks like 70041, Sir John Moore to me. This was an Immingham engine, so a bit more likely on the LNER. Later it went to the Midland Region and it's final shed was Carlisle Kingmoor in February 1964 from where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS) It went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped in September. (BR Database).



V2 60966 on a down parcels at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. It was a New England engine moving to Doncaster just a month after this picture was taken. It didn't last too long there either as it was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It appears to have been scrapped at Doncaster within the week. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Royal Scot 46111 Royal Fusilier on a down Windermere at Kilburn High Road on 16th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine, and was one of that sorry number moving to Annesley in February 1963. It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Crewe where it was scrapped in November 1963.

There's also a northbound BR class 501 North London electric unit on the left. It would have only been in service for fives years when this picture was taken.

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian - I'm with you on the Britannia's number - one can distinguish the shape of the digit in question consists of straight lines, whereas a figure two would have a distinctive curved top.

Roger

 

[Martin Shaw]

And I'm with Brian and Roger. It was one of six Brits at Immingham at that time, 70036-41 and rather helpfully I have found a photo of 70041 on a down Cleethorpes express at Wood Green on the 14th June 62 which rather adds veracity.
Martin