Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

The two relatively prominent driving wheel bosses to be seen on the locomotive to the right side of img3943 caught my interest. My first thought was that this must be a Johnson bogie tank, but a February 1961 date for the photograph put paid to that notion.

I think this must instead be one of the Vulcan-built Midland 2441 Class 0-6-0Ts. BRDatabase, locomotive allocations, withdrawals and scrapping details in the UK reveals eleven members of the class having been allocated to Kentish Town at various times, of which 47200, 47204, 47209, 47213 and 47223 seem to be candidates for the particular locomotive pictured.

Possibly the trailing driving wheel has been dropped out; this might account for the apparent absence from the picture of its boss and my initial mistaken thought that this was an 0-4-4T.

Img3942 anticipates by around 4 years Colin Gifford's treatment of the steam shed environment – very atmospheric!

 

[Dog Star]

The shed worker has a "sluice" (aka "fishtail") attached to the steam lance. This piece of kit is used, normally, for washing scale from the top of a firebox crown.

 

[Martin Shaw]

45569 Tasmania Crewe North 25/8/34, Camden 8/9/34, Crewe North 24/11/34, Rugby 9/3/35, Derby 11/9/37, Kentish Town 9/7/38, Saltley 6/9/41,
Leeds Holbeck 31/10/42, Wdn w/e 25/4/64, after paper transfer to Patricroft. (Irwell Press)

The tank locomotive in #3945 is Stanier 2-6-2T 40119 which was allocated to Kentish Town at that time.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that correction, Roger @Roger Pound . I should have noticed that but the commentary is put right by way of an edit.

I think you are probably correct about the loco in the gloom of img3943, John @John Palmer . In fact a condensing pipe can be seen on top of the tank although that's not definitive as the 0-4-4 tanks had them too. However, the date (assuming that is correct) bats that possibility out of court anyway, as you say. As for the "pseudo Gifford" photo - yes, Tim was never averse to taking a risk over his subjects and this is one of a few, unfortunately a very few, which is pictorial rather than a straight photo of a locomotive.

Thanks for the technical bit about that steam lance, Roger @Dog Star . Duly added to the accumulated info.

Then, Martin @Martin Shaw - thanks for the details about the Jubilee and also the Stanier 2-6-2T. I couldn't read that loco number and I'm correcting the info for this one as well by way of an edit.

An unidentified Standard Class 5 Class 4 4-6-0 on an unknown date at an unknown location although clearly on the Southern Region. Judging by other photos it’s likely to be around 1961 1958.



This is possibly an unidentified Standard 5 4-6-0 73043 or 73063 but on a date – possibly around 1961 - probably around 1958 and in a location which is unconfirmed although still on the Southern Region. I venture that it’s not in the same location as the previous photo as the conductor rails have changed sides. My initial thought that this was 73063 was clearly wrong as that loco was at Polmadie for the whole of its working life. In the circumstances 73043 is the most likely candidate as, although it was allocated to Canklow in May 1961 it moved to Eastleigh in December 1962 which now suggests the date of the photo to be most likely 1963. It was allocated to Feltham in December 1963, back to Eastleigh in September 1964, then Guildford in June 1965 and Nine Elms in June 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). In fact I have a photo of the loco with a rebuilt West Country on Basingstoke Shed on the last day. It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in March 1968. (BR Database).
The info above has been corrected following additional data which can be reviewed below.


Well, a least we can identify this loco – it’s rebuilt West Country 34025 Whimple but we still don’t know the location or date, although we suspect it might be around 1961 1958 and the location could well be the same as the previous photo. Whimple was rebuilt in October 1957, a Bricklayers Arms loco from June 1959 until it moved to Eastleigh in May 1961 and then Bournemouth from October 1965 until it was withdrawn in July1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in March 1968 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35016 Elders Fyffes at Salisbury on the ACE on 30th November 1957. This was on Nine Elms allocation from at least January 1948 (BR Database) , moved to Weymouth Radipole in September 1964 and withdrawal in August 1965. (SLS). The rebuilding occurred in April 1957. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca (WHTS) in December 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

The unidentified Standard 5 is, in fact, a Standard 4 (I think a 4-6-0), one of the batch that came to the Southern with larger tenders.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

The unidentified Standard 5 is, in fact, a Standard 4 (I think a 4-6-0), one of the batch that came to the Southern with larger tenders.

Adam

Thanks Adam @AJC . I'll make an immediate change to the description. Thanks goodness for the advice I get on this site!

Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Thanks Adam @AJC . I'll make an immediate change to the description. Thanks goodness for the advice I get on this site!

Brian

It also has the additional lamp irons on the smokebox door indicating its "Southernness".

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have been studying the recent crop of SR pictures with great interest, and I have come to some conclusions, hopefully not too wrong.

#3935 is what we think is 34084 253 Squadron on a Victoria to Dover train via Chatham at an unknown location but almost certainly on the Chatham bit of the Eastern section of the SR. There is a hill top in the background with an electricity pylon readily visible.

The locomotive was allocated to Ramsgate 12/5/51, Stew Lane 24/2/58, Dover 10/4/58 and away to Exmouth Junc 24/11/60. It was involved in the Hither Green accident 0n 20/2/60 and it had ATC fitted in May 1959 so I think this dates the picture as 1958. Additionally to the right sitting on top of the concrete troughing is what looks like an impedance bond awaiting installation so also predates energisation of the traction supply for the Kent Coast electrification. Nothing too contentious there.

#3947 shows a Std 4 with a Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham headcode almost certainly again on the eastern section with a topographical background not dissimilar to that in #3935. We saw some of Tim’s photos around Sole Street/Longfield/Meopham earlier so I wonder if we are back in that area, it all feels south of the North Downs.

There were five std 4s 75065-9 allocated to Dover shed in Aug/Sep 1955 and following the Kent Coast scheme phase 1 they were all reallocated to Bournemouth in Jun 59 which suggest the picture predates then. Additionally all the fifteen Std4s, 75065 - 75079 allocated to the SR were rebuilt with double chimneys between Oct 60 and Nov 61. So therefore it’s one of 75065 – 75069 and in the summer as the front steam heat hose is missing. I cannot help with the location, I can’t find anywhere in the approximate area with a signal close to the approach side of a station but see the next pics comments.

#3948 This is almost certainly Fawkham Junc and shows a down train with headcode Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham. The signals fit the diagram, the one on the left is the up starting to Farningham Road, the train is passing the down home signal with Fawkham Station down outer distant signal beneath it. The other arm is the down home to Southfleet (Gravesend West). Now Fawkham Junc signal box closed on 10/5/59 which means the photo is before then and it is a crucial date.

The locomotive is not 73043 which only arrived on the SR at Eastleigh in 11/62 from Canklow ER. There were ten Std 5s allocated to the eastern section, all at Stewarts Lane from summer 1955, 73080 -73089. Of these 73085 and 73088 went to Oxford 2/56, 73087 to Bath Green Park 8/56. The rest went to Nine Elms in May 59 with the exception of 73089 which went a year earlier/. Therefore I would suggest its one of the six 73080-4/6.

(Addition on 23/3, the above paragraph is now more than likely incorrect as further info has come to light, see posts #4836/7)

#3949 This is the exact same location as #3935 even to the extent of the impedance bond on the troughing. The loco has the headcode Victoria and Dover via Chatham and it was a Ramsgate engine in the summer of 1958, again the steam heat hose is missing. The electricity pylons are there as well.

I would suggest that all four of these photos were taken in the summer of 1958, at least three of them possibly on the same day and whilst I can only positively identify one location, they must all be fairly close to each other.
Martin

 

[John Palmer]

I agree with all of @Martin Shaw's conclusions about the location of the recent crop of SR pictures, and can only contribute a couple of additional observations.

First, positioning of the conductor rail on the 'six foot' side of the running line is consistent with the convention that it would not positioned adjacent to a platform face, and suggests that img3947 was taken in the vicinity of a station platform. In img3949, immediately to the left of 34025 you can make out a ramp forming the start of a conductor rail and I suggest that this marks the point of its transition to the cess side of the running line from the 'six foot' side. Also to be seen in this picture and img3935 are pulleys carrying two, possibly three, signal wire runs (seems to be a significant droop in one of the runs), so the location will not be far from a signal box.

Second, the signal to be seen in img3947 is topped by a pinnacle of the type used by the London Chatham & Dover Railway. Not a conclusive indication of the pictured railway's former ownership, but adds some weight to the proposition that this is a former LC&D line.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Standard Class 5 Class 4 4-6-0 on an unknown date at an unknown location although clearly on the Southern Region. Judging by other photos it’s likely to be around 1961.

#3947 shows a Std 4 with a Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham headcode almost certainly again on the eastern section with a topographical background not dissimilar to that in #3935. We saw some of Tim’s photos around Sole Street/Longfield/Meopham earlier so I wonder if we are back in that area, it all feels south of the North Downs.

I think this is Fawkham - as rightly alluded to by @John Palmer and @Martin Shaw we are on the ex LCDR from Chatham to Swanley. One of the tell tales is the Danger - don't touch the conductor rails sign being one of the SR versions as this line was electrified from Swanley to Gillingham in 1939.

This would place the image of the WC/BB in image 3935 (post 4,806) between Chatham and Fawkham, not Dover and Chatham as I had originally stated in post #4,812.

#3948 This is almost certainly Fawkham Junc and shows a down train with headcode Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham. The signals fit the diagram, the one on the left is the up starting to Farningham Road, the train is passing the down home signal with Fawkham Station down outer distant signal beneath it. The other arm is the down home to Southfleet (Gravesend West). Now Fawkham Junc signal box closed on 10/5/59 which means the photo is before then and it is a crucial date.

Would this be Pinden Junction (as noted on OS maps) which precedes Fawkham station heading towards Meopham?

And, likewise, I think these photos are a few years earlier - around 1958 - to tie in with the date of the U1 at Welling.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Would this be Pinden Junction (as noted on OS maps) which precedes Fawkham station heading towards Meopham?

It would indeed Dave although I have never heard it so called, as far as I am aware the railway and me always called it Fawkham Junction.

 

[Dave Holt]

The Std 4 photo shows the parapets of an under-bridge about level with the loco tender or first coach, so quite close to the platform ramp. Also, in the left distance, there looks to be a number of yachts in full sail, so presumably a lake or reservoir.
Perhaps those features help narrow down the location?
All the visible coaches appear to be blood and custard, so that would tend to confirm the 1950s rather than 1961.
Dave.

 

[Genghis]

I love the sleuthing that goes on here as much as I enjoy the photos!
Dave

 

[simond]

I submit that Dave’s “yachts” are actually gable ends, possibly of housing, but that feels a bit modern?

 

[oldravendale]

I should have checked the lamp irons myself, Arun, so thanks for the reminder.

A lot of info there, Martin @Martin Shaw , for which I'm most grateful. A simple "thank you" seems rather insufficient for so much work! I'll break it down in to sections to use against each photo - however the info about 73043 has caused me to edit the submission and make it an unidentified Standard 5 as has your advice about the likely date.

Thank you doe yours John @John Palmer and Dave @Yorkshire Dave as well. Further info to be added and your alternative will be included, Martin.

Thanks for yours as well, Dave @Dave Holt, although Simon @Simon D is correct. Those yacht sails are gable ends - but I have the benefit of being able to inspect the original TIFF transfer.

And Dave @Genghis - as you and I have discussed previously I find the amount of detail coming from the WT participants quite amazing. This has corrected many of the errors in the original notes and provided details which I'd never have believed possible. Long may it continue.

Schools Class 4-4-0 30904 Lancing at Waterloo on 30th November 1957. The loco was allocated to Nine Elms in June 1957 and Basingstoke a year later where it was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). There’s a confliction of information thereafter as the SLS report it at Ashford in the Works Yard on 28th July 1961 and then at Eastleigh Works, in the scrap sidings behind the works on 20th January 1963. However, the Railway Observer confirm the loco at Ashford Works, and WHTS the sighting by the SLS in the works yard on 28th July 1961. Thereafter WHTS advise it as seen in Ashford Works scrap road on 2nd August 1961 (RO), Ashford scrap road on 13th August 1961 (WHTS) and again on 7th September 1961 (RO) and the Railway Observer further reports the loco as cut up during week ending 23rd September 1961 which agrees with BR Database. All things considered I reckon the SLS report of the loco being at Eastleigh in 1963 is incorrect and probably a touch of finger trouble.



Princess 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught next to an unidentified Princess Coronation at a remarkably uncluttered Camden Shed Yard in 1957. The Princess has previously been in posts #1404, #1742, #3041 and #3623. It was allocated to Edge Hill from September 1951 then there’s a strange entry on both the SLS and BR Database records that it went to the Western Region on loan at the beginning of February 1956, returning to Edge Hill at the end of the month. It went to Camden in October 1959, Willesden in March, back to Camden in July and finally Willesden in September 1961. Tim photographed this loco in Willesden Shed Yard on 24th February 1962 in post #1742 and 18th June 1961 in post #3041 so it was sadly in store for some time. 46207 was recorded as only a few weeks out of shops by the SLS when in store at Willesden and seen on 1st April 1961 where it had been allocated on the same day. In fact it had received a heavy intermediate at Crewe over 36 days, coming out of works on 3rd December 1960 and then a light casual over 31 days coming out of works on 11th February 1961. That's about six weeks between overhaul and going in to store. We expected to see a couple of years of work out of it at least but it was reinstated at Camden in August 1961 and back to Willesden in September the same year where it was withdrawn in November. It went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in May 1962. See post #1404 for another photo of the loco at Euston. (All BR Database and SLS).



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42237 and Jubilee 45566 Queensland among other unidentified locos including possibly a Fowler 2-6-2T, a Midland Condensing 3F 0-6-0T and a Black 5 at Kentish Town in October 1956. The Fairburn tank has a special meaning for me – I have one of the OHLE warning panels. It was a Kentish Town engine from July 1949, moving to Rowsley in August 1962 and withdrawal in December the same year. (SLS). It went to Derby Works for disposal (WHTS) although verification is required and the deed was done in January 1963. (BR Database).

Queensland was allocated to Holbeck from at least January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in November 1962. (SLS). It then went to Crewe Works where it was observed on 21st October and 16th December 1962. (WHTS). BR Database advise it was scrapped the same month.



Brian

 

[65179]

I have been studying the recent crop of SR pictures with great interest, and I have come to some conclusions, hopefully not too wrong.

#3935 is what we think is 34084 253 Squadron on a Victoria to Dover train via Chatham at an unknown location but almost certainly on the Chatham bit of the Eastern section of the SR. There is a hill top in the background with an electricity pylon readily visible.

The locomotive was allocated to Ramsgate 12/5/51, Stew Lane 24/2/58, Dover 10/4/58 and away to Exmouth Junc 24/11/60. It was involved in the Hither Green accident 0n 20/2/60 and it had ATC fitted in May 1959 so I think this dates the picture as 1958. Additionally to the right sitting on top of the concrete troughing is what looks like an impedance bond awaiting installation so also predates energisation of the traction supply for the Kent Coast electrification. Nothing too contentious there.

#3947 shows a Std 4 with a Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham headcode almost certainly again on the eastern section with a topographical background not dissimilar to that in #3935. We saw some of Tim’s photos around Sole Street/Longfield/Meopham earlier so I wonder if we are back in that area, it all feels south of the North Downs.

There were five std 4s 75065-9 allocated to Dover shed in Aug/Sep 1955 and following the Kent Coast scheme phase 1 they were all reallocated to Bournemouth in Jun 59 which suggest the picture predates then. Additionally all the fifteen Std4s, 75065 - 75079 allocated to the SR were rebuilt with double chimneys between Oct 60 and Nov 61. So therefore it’s one of 75065 – 75069 and in the summer as the front steam heat hose is missing. I cannot help with the location, I can’t find anywhere in the approximate area with a signal close to the approach side of a station but see the next pics comments.

#3948 This is almost certainly Fawkham Junc and shows a down train with headcode Victoria and Ramsgate via Chatham. The signals fit the diagram, the one on the left is the up starting to Farningham Road, the train is passing the down home signal with Fawkham Station down outer distant signal beneath it. The other arm is the down home to Southfleet (Gravesend West). Now Fawkham Junc signal box closed on 10/5/59 which means the photo is before then and it is a crucial date.

The locomotive is not 73043 which only arrived on the SR at Eastleigh in 11/62 from Canklow ER. There were ten Std 5s allocated to the eastern section, all at Stewarts Lane from summer 1955, 73080 -73089. Of these 73085 and 73088 went to Oxford 2/56, 73087 to Bath Green Park 8/56. The rest went to Nine Elms in May 59 with the exception of 73089 which went a year earlier/. Therefore I would suggest its one of the six 73080-4/6.

#3949 This is the exact same location as #3935 even to the extent of the impedance bond on the troughing. The loco has the headcode Victoria and Dover via Chatham and it was a Ramsgate engine in the summer of 1958, again the steam heat hose is missing. The electricity pylons are there as well.

I would suggest that all four of these photos were taken in the summer of 1958, at least three of them possibly on the same day and whilst I can only positively identify one location, they must all be fairly close to each other.
Martin

There's a small problem with the suggested batch of Standard Class 5s. That batch had the high sided BR1B tender. I'm no expert on the standard classes, but the tender looks like a BR1 or a BR1G. Anyone better at spotting the differences might be able to tell. There's also the change to handrails and fall plate arrangement from 73050 (?) onwards on the Std 5s to consider too which might help. I'm looking at the photo on my phone, but if the shot shows no vertical handrail on the front of the tender, we may be looking at one of the earlier Std 5s.

How about 73042 or 73041 of the 1958 SR loanees according to BR database.

Regards,
Simon

 

[Martin Shaw]

Ok hands up time, I completely overlooked the tender and your quite correct Simon it is a type 1 tender therefore not one of the later Std 5s. 73041/2 came to the SR in exchange for the two Britannias 70004/14 which went to Kentish Town for the accelerated services on the MIdland. There seems to be some doubt as to whether they were on loan or formally transfered, sources differ. Looking again at the highly enlarged pic I would suggest the last digit of the smokebox numbeplate is too rounded to be a1 so it seems likely that it is 73042. This engine was badly damaged in the accident at Eastbourne on the 25th August 1958 and didn't return to service until 9/11/58 which points to the pic having been taken between 14/6 and 24/8 of that year. Thanks Simon.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Following Yorky Dave's post I have established that there was a signal box at Pinden that closed on the 10/5/1886. It was most likely a break section box as there was no junction then. It was replaced by a new signal box that was constructed for the junction of the new Gravesend West branch that opened along with the signal box named Fawkham Junction on the afore mentioned date. It seems that the Ordnance Survey didn't talk to the LCDR and just added junction on the maps.

I have also established that #3497 is Farningham Road looking east and therefore an up train. The up side coal yard sidings were removed in 1958 and the platform lengthened to accommodate 10 or 12 car trains as part of the electrification which resulted in the brand new troughing on display. I think there may be some foreshortening in the photograph as the signal and bridge seem very close. A look at an extract from the OS map shows the sidings under the main line which were subsequently removed as the map is dated 1939. The black dot and SP notation at the bridge is the signal in the picture.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Simon @65179 and Martin @Martin Shaw for narrowing down the possibilities as far as that Standard 5 is concerned. All added to the file. Thanks too for your work on the geography, Martin.

The following photos have all been identified as 1958 so despite there being no relationship with the previous photos in terms of negative numbers it is entirely possible that all were taken in the same year.

Class C13 4-4-2T 67420 at Neasden MPD on 3rd May 1958. It appears to have been allocated to Neasden for as long as the records can advise, ie January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in December 1958. It went to Gorton Works (Yeadons Vol 33) where it was scrapped during February 1959. (BR Database).



Grange Class 6844 Penhydd Grange at Old Oak Common in April 1958. The loco was allocated to Llanelli from July 1952, Neath (Court Sart) in December 1961 and back to Llanelli in August 1962 where it was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in September the same year at Cohen’s Kettering. (BR Database).



Tim’s original description of the location must be questioned as he advises it to be Liverpool Street. I wonder if it’s Braintree but, bearing in mind previous experience on this thread I’m probably wrong. However, J68 68660 was a Parkeston Quay engine from March 1947 and was withdrawn in December 1960. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford (Yeadons Vol 48) in June 1961. (BR Database).



At Liverpool Street in 1958 was B12 61535. This had been allocated to Ipswich since May 1948 and moved to Norwich Thorpe in November 1959 where it was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works where it was seen on 1st January 1960 (RO) later the same month. (BR Database).



In the background of this photo, partially hidden by the bunker of the loco, is The Norseman headboard. The photo is at Liverpool Street, the date 1958 and the loco N7 69726. This was a Stratford engine from March 1951 and withdrawn in December 1960. It was kept at Stratford Works for disposal (Yeadons Vol 27) but I can find no date when the deed was done.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

If my fading memory serves, the C13 class were consistently used on some of the Home Counties suburban services originating from Marylebone. I thus assume that It woul be most likely that this was the work upon which 67420 was employed. According to my old 1954 Combined 'abc' 67420 was push-pull fitted along with half a dozen others of the class. My apologies if this last fact is obvious from the photograph -unfortunately I cannot tell....!
They were nice neat little locos, typical of Robinson and efficiently doing the work for which they were designed thoughout their long lives.

Roger.