Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Barry37]

This is a loco I never knew had visited Waterloo until I saw Tim’s photos. It’s A2 60532 Blue Peter – see 60532 Blue Peter Location is certain but the date unconfirmed. However research uncovered this: The Railtour Files so I believe these photos to be the loco either backing on to or ready to leave with the A2 Commemorative Railtour which was run by the LCGB. The loco ran the train from Waterloo to Westbury where it retired short of steam and a Brit had to take over.

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Castle Class 7032 Denbigh Castle in an unconfirmed location and an unknown date. The record (SLS) shows the loco to have been allocated to Old Oak Common from July 1950 although it had been in store at some time as it was reinstated in September 1964. Judging by the polish on the wheels it's still in use so, basing on the loco appearance and history I’ll suggest it’s at Old Oak in September 1964 as that is when it was reinstated and withdrawn – in fact on 28th September. The loco was scrapped in February 1965 at Bird’s, Risca.

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Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73169 at Waterloo at an unknown date but late in the day for Southern steam judging by the steam leaking from every orifice and no smokebox number plate. I’ll guess 1965 or a bit later. Before moving to the Southern Region and Feltham shed in September 1963 the loco had been at Wakefield. In November 1964 it was reallocated to Eastleigh and was withdrawn from there at the end of September 1966. It was scrapped in June 1967 at Cashmore’s, Newport. (SLS). Note the 4-COR EMU in the background.

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Brian

Interesting BR 12T standard van on the left, in the photo of Denbigh Castle. D1/208 design, plywood doors and planked body. 8-shoe brakegear. It is branded ICI Fertiliser, and has some of the load deposited on various parts of the body and underframe. The interesting aspect is that it seems to have a white roof. While this could be fertiliser, it's very evenly covered, which might indicate the roof having been painted white in the old GWR style.

 

[AJC]

Interesting BR 12T standard van on the left, in the photo of Denbigh Castle. D1/208 design, plywood doors and planked body. 8-shoe brakegear. It is branded ICI Fertiliser, and has some of the load deposited on various parts of the body and underframe. The interesting aspect is that it seems to have a white roof. While this could be fertiliser, it's very evenly covered, which might indicate the roof having been painted white in the old GWR style.

I suspect, going on the fact that all the upper surfaces, from springs to strapping, have a white deposit on them, that it's been used for something like bagged china clay. You see quite a lot of weathering on vans looking like that in images of Cornish clay works. The ICI branding is the remnants of a paper poster, pasted on. I say remnants, because the livery colour of the van is clearly visible: the poster would have been blue.

Adam

PS - some later, air braked vans, did indeed get white roofs for Rowntree traffic to York, but not BR standard vans, so far as I'm aware.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Graham @Dog Star . I think you are bang on with that. I've added it to the data for all three photos.

As ever your comments about the van are much appreciated Barry @Barry37 and Adam @AJC. All added to the file.

Today is almost exclusively of a single subject but nine photos.

Nine photos here of original Battle of Britain 34066 Spitfire. The first eight are at Waterloo and one of them is even dated, on 27th March 1966. The last one is of the loco working at West Weybridge and also in March 1966. 1996 was the loco’s final year in capital stock as it was withdrawn from Salisbury where it had been allocated in August/September 1964 and was withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It then went to Buttigieg’s at Newport where it was photographed on 31st December 1966. (WHTS). It was observed at Westbury in transit by the LCGB on 23rd November in the previous year. BR Database report the loco was scrapped in January 1967.



















Back to Clapham Transport Museum at an unknown date and GER E4 2-4-0 490. See 62785 (GER 490, LNER 7490, LNER 7802, LNER 2785 & BR 62785)



Brian

 

[jonte]

Fabulous, Brian.

Thanks for sharing.

Jon

 

[Martin Shaw]

On a sombre note 34066 Spitfire was the locomotive involved in the Lewisham accident on the 4th Dec 1957. Apparently my father was delayed on his homeward journey that night being in the train immediately behind the Ramsgate one. It remains the third worst rail crash in British railway history after Quintinshill and Harrow.

Martin

 

[Barry37]

Thank you Graham @Dog Star . I think you are bang on with that. I've added it to the data for all three photos.

As ever your comments about the van are much appreciated Barry @Barry37 and Adam @AJC. All added to the file.

Today is almost exclusively of a single subject but nine photos.

Nine photos here of original Battle of Britain 34066 Spitfire. The first eight are at Waterloo and one of them is even dated, on 27th March 1966. The last one is of the loco working at West Weybridge and also in March 1966. 1996 was the loco’s final year in capital stock as it was withdrawn from Salisbury where it had been allocated in August/September 1964 and was withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It then went to Buttigieg’s at Newport where it was photographed on 31st December 1966. (WHTS). It was observed at Westbury in transit by the LCGB on 23rd November in the previous year. BR Database report the loco was scrapped in January 1967.

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Back to Clapham Transport Museum at an unknown date and GER E4 2-4-0 490. See 62785 (GER 490, LNER 7490, LNER 7802, LNER 2785 & BR 62785)

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Brian

I wonder if there was a reason why the small window/frame at the front of the tender didn't match the profile of the cab on WC/BB (and presumably MNs), i.e. taller?

 

[James Spooner]

What I also find interesting is the amount of dents in the right hand side air smoothing of Spitfire. The irony is that, if one attempted to replicate that in model form, onlookers would be offering advice on how to form the side sheets properly…

Nigel

 

[readingtype]

Nine photos here of original Battle of Britain 34066 Spitfire. The first eight are at Waterloo and one of them is even dated, on 27th March 1966. The last one is of the loco working at West Weybridge and also in March 1966.

@oldravendale, are the Waterloo ones perhaps all from a single day? I am wondering if we can follow the sun around, Waterloo being oriented almost north-south. The two photos of Spitfire at the buffers must be on the same day if not sequential frames. I speculate as follows: train runs in on late morning arrival; loco backs out to be turned while carriages are dealt with, then returns to back onto an early afternoon departure. I'd be happy to have my conjecture corrected by more knowledgeable people.

Lovely images again. Much as I wish it were not true, the black and white images make the subjects feel remote while the colour ones pull me in to the extent I can practically hear and smell the scene. Thank you!

Ben

 

[76043]

What I also find interesting is the amount of dents in the right hand side air smoothing of Spitfire. The irony is that, if one attempted to replicate that in model form, onlookers would be offering advice on how to form the side sheets properly…

Nigel

It reminds me of Father Ted trying to remove a dent from his car.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your kind comment, Jon @jonte .

I'd not associated the loco immediately with the Lewisham incident, Martin @Martin Shaw although I remember it well, as I do the Harrow collision even though I was only six years old at the time. My mother was a nurse and offered assistance.

I can't comment on the reason for the profile of the tender being different from the loco Barry @Barry37 , although we know the tenders were rebuilt over the years and that may have something to do with it. At the end of the day, though, provided the tender did what tenders are supposed to do it probably got a "pass".

We've commented on the dents previously, Nigel @James Spooner - and as the same issue affects diesels -but it was suggested that a model reproducing this issue would look badly built so we continue to build our models "to perfection".

I believe all the photos of the Battle of Britain with the exception of the one at West Weybridge were taken on the same day, Ben @readingtype .

Standard Class 4 4-6-0s 75002 and 75029 double heading the Tallyllyn Railway Special Train of 24th and 25th September 1966 identified as 1X82 throughout. See The Railtour Files 75002 was allocated to Machynlleth from September/October 1962 and moved to Croes Newydd in December 1966. It was finally at Stoke in May/June 1967 and was withdrawn in August the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped on 28th February 1968 at Bird’s, Long Marston.

75029 was also at Machynlleth but from November 1962 and moved to Croes Newydd in March 1963, then Llandudno Junction from June/July 1965, Shrewsbury August/September 1966, back to Croes Newydd in March/April 1967 and Stoke about a month later. It was withdrawn in August 1967 and went straight in to preservation, being saved by David Shepherd, See 75029



Clun Castle yet again at Denham Bucks and in September 1966. The reporting number is possibly 1M3-something but I can find nothing on Six Bells Junction which could provide more information. The loco still carries the BR totem and smokebox number plate. By March 1967 it had lost both and had the Great Western branding. However there is a record on Six Bells Junction of a train identified as 1X83 on 26th/27th September 1964 so admittedly not a close match but I can find nothing else which fits. See The Railtour Files

Edit. Known now to not be Denham but location has not been finalised.



Britannia 70011 Hotspur on an unconfirmed date at an unconfirmed location. However, based on personal experience I believe this to be at Willesden. The loco carries the shed code 12A for Carlisle Kingmoor where it was allocated from November/December 1963 until January/February 1965 when it moved to Carlisle Upperby. It moved back to Kingmoor in December 1966 and withdrawal in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, on 7th March 1968. (BR Database).







Brian

 

[Mike Walker]

Regarding 7029, it's not Denham as there are four tracks, there were only two at Denham apart from the platform loops.

It looks to me to be somewhere along the Great Western Main Line running on the Up Main, GWR mileposts were/are on the Up side but sadly the mileage cannot be read. The gantry mounted signal in the background might give a clue.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Clun Castle yet again at Denham Bucks and in September 1966. The reporting number is possibly 1M3-something but I can find nothing on Six Bells Junction which could provide more information. The loco still carries the BR totem and smokebox number plate. By March 1967 it had lost both and had the Great Western branding. However there is a record on Six Bells Junction of a train identified as 1X83 on 26th/27th September 1964 so admittedly not a close match but I can find nothing else which fits. See The Railtour Files

As @Mike Walker says this is not Denham. I think this is between West Drayton and Iver on the GW main line as this is the only place I can find on the OS maps where the national grid power lines cross the railway.

The 1M3- reporting number appears to indicate an inter-regional main line train. The letter M is the destination which is somewhere on the London Midland region.

 

[Dan Randall]

As @Mike Walker says this is not Denham. I think this is between West Drayton and Iver on the GW main line as this is the only place I can find on the OS maps where the national grid power lines cross the railway.

Not so sure about that, as there are only 4 tracks in view and there’s a goods loop between Iver and West Drayton.

In the distance, between the telegraph poles and the wooden hut, there looks to be a footbridge and possibly, a platform/station, which may or may not provide more clues - somewhere between Reading and Didcot perhaps?


Regards

Dan

 

[Mike Walker]

Having had a look through old signalling diagrams I can't find any spot of the GWML east of Didcot where there was a signal gantry of the type shown. But the location would appear to be on that line as it is on the Up Main. It is of course possible this gantry was later replaced by a different arrangement, my records only go back to the early 21st century when I became involved professionally. Another possibility would be somewhere on the 4-track section between Lapworth and Tyseley although if that were the case it would be on the Up Relief. Where ever it is, the train is clearly running in the Up direction as GWR practice was to position its mileposts on the Up side.

I wouldn't put too much reliance on the reporting number. They were far less important than they are today and often got left in place when the locomotive took up its next duty particularly 'temporary' ones like this.

 

[oldravendale]

Well, I guess I should have studied the photo more closely rather than rely on Tim's description! Thank goodness for these valued contributions and thank you Mike @Mike Walker , Dave @Yorkshire Dave and Dan @Dan Randall .

Two Jinties at Willesden. 47435 in the first and second photos carries a 1A Willesden shed plate. The other loco in the second photo is 47432. 47435 was at Willesden Shed between November/December 1964 and October 1965 when it moved to Wolverton Works. (SLS). It was withdrawn in October 1966 and went to Cohen’s Kettering (RO) where it was scrapped in June 1967. (BR Database). 47432 (or NEDDY ) was allocated to Willesden in December 1964/January 1965 and was withdrawn in August 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Bridgend (RO) in February 1966. (BR Database).









Several photos here of A2 Pacific 60532 at unknown locations and dates although a couple are identified as “mid 1960s” and the fourth is at the Forth Bridge in November 1993 on a crew training run from Perth to Glasgow. The fifth with the “Heart of Midlothaian” headboard is possibly on a preserved railway – I can’t locate a special train with that headboard. I suspected initially that it was at Loughborough but I think not, apart from which I don’t remember Blue Peter ever visiting the GCR. Details of the loco are at 60532 Blue Peter Whilst the date is uncertain the loco was allocated to Dundee Tay Bridge on 19th June 1961 and Aberdeen Ferryhill on 4th December 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of the same year. This loco featured previously at Waterloo in post #5658.















Brian

 

[Brian Daniels]

Is Clun Castle the west end of Maidenhead with the start of the cutting towards Twyford in the distance? It's definitely down this area as those signal gantries are so Reading/Old Oak panel to me.

 

[daifly]

From Wikipedia:
"In 1998, 60532 ran an Edinburgh to London excursion to mark the 40th anniversary of the Blue Peter TV programme. The trip was Day's Out Limited's "Heart of Midlothian" which had run from Kings Cross to Edinburgh behind a diesel and 60532 worked the journey south with members of the Blue Peter team traveling on board."

19th April 1998 to be exact

Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Is Clun Castle the west end of Maidenhead with the start of the cutting towards Twyford in the distance? It's definitely down this area as those signal gantries are so Reading/Old Oak panel to me.

Having looked at the OS maps again I think we are further west still at the eastern edge of Pangbourne. Here the National Grid transmission lines cross at an angle and there is a signal bridge marked on the map. In addition the shallow curve appears to match.

Extract of NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-75 series to show location. Red = Signal bridge, Green = Milepost and Blue = National Grid transmission lines.

 

[Dan Randall]

I think Dave’s nailed the location this time - well done!

I found this 1988 cab ride video from Reading to Didcot….

Although the quality is a bit iffy, I’m pretty sure that around the 07:54 mark, some pylons can be seen in the fields on the RHS and around 08:12, there’s one to be seen on the left, though oddly, I can’t see any HT cables spanning the tracks, but that could just be the brightness of the sky, coupled with the iffy video I guess? Finally, at around 08:26, a milepost and signal bridge can be seen.

I think what I originally thought to be a footbridge in the distance, may just have been some houses lurking behind some trees, because of the four stations between Reading and Didcot, only two (Tilehurst and Goring & Streatley), actually had footbridges!


Regards

Dan

 

[oldravendale]

Once again WT comes up trumps. Thank you Brian @Brian Daniels , particularly Dave @Yorkshire Dave and Dan @Dan Randall for the confirmation. Quite remarkable! Also to Dave @daifly for finding the details of the "Heart of Midlothian". I've created a file for the 7029 photo and will add the info from Dave @daifly to the photo attachments.

An unidentified Black 5 at an unknown location. The date is also unknown.



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73083 Pendragon but apparently the name plate has been removed. The location is Weybridge and the date July 1966. At the time the loco was allocated to Nine Elms and had been there since November 1964. At the time of the photo the loco didn’t have long to go, though, as it was withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It went to Cashmore’s, Newport where it was scrapped in February 1967. (BR Database).

Edit: Now know to be Byfleet and New Haw, not Weybridge.



Another Standard Class 5 on the Southern, this time 73082 Camelot at Feltham Shed. The loco carries a 70A Nine Elms shed plate and it was allocated there in June 1959. In June 1965 it moved to Guildford where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). It went to Barry for scrapping which never happened and it was saved for the Bluebell Railway – see
73082 Camelot



I’m going to suggest what this is probably not! I believe it’s not 6998 Burton Agnes Hall as shown in post #5624 even though it bears a certain resemblance and the photo is at Southall. There is a number 19 chalked on the loco front frame but the relevance is unknown. Note 61XX 6134 behind the Hall. It was allocated to Southall from December 1964/January 1965 until August/September the same year when it moved to Oxford which was it's final allocation and gives a good guide to the likely date of the photo.



Brian