4mm B.S.L./Phoenix Coach Kits - A Retrospective.
- Thread starter Mike Trice
- Start date
Ian Rathbone
Western Thunderer
Sorry, I deleted it as I had chosen the wrong coach! Here it is, actually nearly 50 years on -
Ian R
Ian R
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Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
It is possible but I have nothing to compare it with.
This is the coach I have been desperate to get get my hands on. It is a Lawrence Scale Models Gresley with painted finish by Dave Studley. Words fail me:
Hayfield1
Western Thunderer
Just a guess, looks like what I remember, but its a similar plastic as the BSL seats, but I have never seen a plastic BSL/Hobbytime roof
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
Here is the underside of that plastic roof. It looks as if the roof was originally longer but has been cut down on the RHS:
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
I promised that I would have a go at building a couple of the kits. I have sufficient parts for a LMS Stanier BTK, a Gresley 61'0" and a number of Thompson coaches.
I though I would start with what I thought would be the easiest, the LMS Stanier BTK. My kit, bought secondhand and not in its original packaging appears complete except the cast duckets are missing.
Some other Thompson's in my possession have had the sides prepainted in the Crimson and Cream and I can certainly see the advantage of detailing, painting and lining the Stanier with the sides flat on the workbench. I could be persuaded otherwise.
Careful examination of the cast ends showed some of the steps were bent out of true and the buffer beam skew whiff (ends before correcting):
Fortunately the allow was mallable enough for me to straighten them with flat nose pliers.
There are some distortions along the stepboard pressing. The appear on ALL kits so must be caused when the parts are clamped for pressing. Sorry for the poor quality image:
This angle shows the issue clearer:
Again a quick tweak with the pliers ane the solebars are straight again:
The sides were rubbed down with a fine decorators block to remove the shine and hopefully give the paint something to key to. In this image the top side has been treated but the lower is still to be done. Hopefully you can just make out the burr caused by the stamping process on the lower side:
In order to scribe the door lines I put a mark on the centre line of the doors. I also noticed from the instructions the need to manually remove some of the cross bars on the windows (marked with an "X"):
These were snipped out with a pair of fine side cutters and the edges dressed with a file:
Finally using the centre markings the door edges were scribed using dimensions from one of David Jenkinson's drawings: 2'0 3/16" for the passenger doors and 4'7 1/2" over the double guard's doors. In practise I rounded these up/down as appropriate:
Next job is to fit hinges then dril and fit handles etc. For the hinges I am thinking of using short lengths of styrene possible held in place with small blobs of epoxy. Once primed and painted I hope these with remain stuck in place.
Out of interest none of the Lawrence built models in my collection have hinges fitted and all handles do not stand proud of the sides, something I might emulate.
Thoughts?
I though I would start with what I thought would be the easiest, the LMS Stanier BTK. My kit, bought secondhand and not in its original packaging appears complete except the cast duckets are missing.
Some other Thompson's in my possession have had the sides prepainted in the Crimson and Cream and I can certainly see the advantage of detailing, painting and lining the Stanier with the sides flat on the workbench. I could be persuaded otherwise.
Careful examination of the cast ends showed some of the steps were bent out of true and the buffer beam skew whiff (ends before correcting):
Fortunately the allow was mallable enough for me to straighten them with flat nose pliers.
There are some distortions along the stepboard pressing. The appear on ALL kits so must be caused when the parts are clamped for pressing. Sorry for the poor quality image:
This angle shows the issue clearer:
Again a quick tweak with the pliers ane the solebars are straight again:
The sides were rubbed down with a fine decorators block to remove the shine and hopefully give the paint something to key to. In this image the top side has been treated but the lower is still to be done. Hopefully you can just make out the burr caused by the stamping process on the lower side:
In order to scribe the door lines I put a mark on the centre line of the doors. I also noticed from the instructions the need to manually remove some of the cross bars on the windows (marked with an "X"):
These were snipped out with a pair of fine side cutters and the edges dressed with a file:
Finally using the centre markings the door edges were scribed using dimensions from one of David Jenkinson's drawings: 2'0 3/16" for the passenger doors and 4'7 1/2" over the double guard's doors. In practise I rounded these up/down as appropriate:
Next job is to fit hinges then dril and fit handles etc. For the hinges I am thinking of using short lengths of styrene possible held in place with small blobs of epoxy. Once primed and painted I hope these with remain stuck in place.
Out of interest none of the Lawrence built models in my collection have hinges fitted and all handles do not stand proud of the sides, something I might emulate.
Thoughts?
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
Attempt 1. Hinge positions have been marked with a 0.05 tip Uni Pin fine liner and 1mm lengths of 0.5mm styrene rod glued in place with 24hr JB Weld Steel Epoxy. Once cured I will tidy up any overspill (hopefully):
Rosie Taylor
New Member
This is all fascinating, thank you. I have some coach "bits" in my collection (that I picked up at shows second hand) that have "BSL" written on them and now I have some context!
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
I thought I had posted this previously but it seems to have disappeared!
Door vents added from 20thou styrene with sizes judged from photos. All door handle holes have been drilled 0.5mm and any burrs sanded down:
Previously I suggested that I might fully detail and paint the sides before assembly. Nobody shouted "Don't do it", so I did it.
The sides were given a coat of uPol 8 Acid Etch Primer, then a coat of Halfords' Red Primer and a top coat of Halfords' S4-030 Red Gloss (the nearest match to the old Rover Damask Red):
I was worried whether the scribed door edges would still show but I am very happy with them.
Door vents added from 20thou styrene with sizes judged from photos. All door handle holes have been drilled 0.5mm and any burrs sanded down:
Previously I suggested that I might fully detail and paint the sides before assembly. Nobody shouted "Don't do it", so I did it.
The sides were given a coat of uPol 8 Acid Etch Primer, then a coat of Halfords' Red Primer and a top coat of Halfords' S4-030 Red Gloss (the nearest match to the old Rover Damask Red):
I was worried whether the scribed door edges would still show but I am very happy with them.
Thanks for this thread, Mike...I remember seeing some beautiful SR coaches in a local model shop when I was about 12 or 13 (late '70s) and being told they'd been built from BSL kits. They really were a cut above anything I'd seen; even at that age, I could see that the RTR of the day often looked nothing like the real vehicles they were supposed to represent.
I did own a solitary BSL kit at one time, a Maunsell low-windowed example, but never felt confident enough to attempt to build it.
There are probably a few of the accessory packs (seats, etc.) somewhere in my stash of "stuff", bought for use with other kits, whether this will actually happen is anybody's guess.
I am watching your build with interest,
Simon.
I did own a solitary BSL kit at one time, a Maunsell low-windowed example, but never felt confident enough to attempt to build it.
There are probably a few of the accessory packs (seats, etc.) somewhere in my stash of "stuff", bought for use with other kits, whether this will actually happen is anybody's guess.
I am watching your build with interest,
Simon.
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
A cautionary tale.
One of my Lawrence Scale Models coaches had a badly displaced piece of glazing. Examination of all the LSM coaches in my possession suggested the roofs were only glued on at the ends, the sides being unglued. On one of the hot days recently (remember them?) I bravely attempted to pull up one of the ends and was surprised to find it lifted quite easily, possibly helped by the hot weather. Repeating the process at the other end resulted in a detached roof and access to the interior.
It looks as if the original glazing was fixed with Evo Stik (as was the roof) and quite a few had warped over time. My advice to anyone buiding one of the coaches is to find an alternative glazing material:
One of my Lawrence Scale Models coaches had a badly displaced piece of glazing. Examination of all the LSM coaches in my possession suggested the roofs were only glued on at the ends, the sides being unglued. On one of the hot days recently (remember them?) I bravely attempted to pull up one of the ends and was surprised to find it lifted quite easily, possibly helped by the hot weather. Repeating the process at the other end resulted in a detached roof and access to the interior.
It looks as if the original glazing was fixed with Evo Stik (as was the roof) and quite a few had warped over time. My advice to anyone buiding one of the coaches is to find an alternative glazing material:
A useful and timely thread, as a very recent ebay purchase has just arrived - 2 BSL (Thompson, or steel-sided Gresleys?) LNER Ordinaries (Suburbans), an all-First and an all-Third. Just the bodies, no bogies or underframe gear. Both painted maroon, but no attempt at door seams. The First is also missing it's droplights.
The Third has an injection-moulded plastic roof, the First has the later wooden roof.
These will be useful for my planned EM gauge GE Docklands micro terminus ('Bow Locks').
I'll strip the paint off, scribe in the doors and add handles, fit undergubbins and bogies and finish in a mid-1950 livery. I can cut new droplights on the Silhouette.
Edit - now I think about it, a Maidenhead club member has a few coach kits he's been trying to flog via our members sales at the last few exhibitions we've held, including some BSL kits. I'll try and get a list off him, if anyone might be interested.
The Third has an injection-moulded plastic roof, the First has the later wooden roof.
These will be useful for my planned EM gauge GE Docklands micro terminus ('Bow Locks').
I'll strip the paint off, scribe in the doors and add handles, fit undergubbins and bogies and finish in a mid-1950 livery. I can cut new droplights on the Silhouette.
Edit - now I think about it, a Maidenhead club member has a few coach kits he's been trying to flog via our members sales at the last few exhibitions we've held, including some BSL kits. I'll try and get a list off him, if anyone might be interested.
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Rosie Taylor
New Member
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
I seem to recall that at some point Hobbytime would run the same advert for 3 or 4 issues highlighting specific coaches, then have a new advert with different models. If I had enough old magazines (which I don't unfortunately) it would be good to establish when Hobbytime stopped advertising. I suspect in the 1980s. Wish I had one of their lists.
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
I think you are probably right in guessing the 1980s. I have access to the Railway Modeller online archive. Up to the end of the 1970s all of the adverts were scanned in as well and Hobbytime were still there in 1979. For some reason, the archive skipped the ads from 1980, but I stumbled across an article in the December 1989 issue (yes, I have been happily diving down rabbit holes!) by Bob Beattie, where he describes the construction of an LMS dining car using Comet sides. In the article he says that he has ‘in the past built some stock from the old BSL range’ and the wording would imply that the BSL range was no longer available by then.
Nigel
Nigel
Really interesting thread. That BTK is coming along very nicely. Don't recall building any BSL kits but was a big fan of MAJ back in the day so pretty sure that plastic roof is one of theirs. IIRC it was one moulding fits all including their GWR 70 footers. The ends were of thinner section to allow you to cut them back whilst appearing to be scale thickness over the coach ends. Still have several tucked away in the stash alongside some PC kits, which I'm less fond of.
LarryG
Western Thunderer
I can't rely on my memory with Lawrence Scale models and so cannot say when we stopped producing coaches from BSL parts.
After Derek L. bought the 4mm Westdale press tools and pressed the coaches as sides-only, it was natural to use his own parts. Maybe he pressed the roofs as well. I didn't give such matters any thought at the time.
I was using pressed ali roofs in 2009 some years after Derek passed away. They looked like BSL but i cant remember where I obtained them...
After Derek L. bought the 4mm Westdale press tools and pressed the coaches as sides-only, it was natural to use his own parts. Maybe he pressed the roofs as well. I didn't give such matters any thought at the time.
I was using pressed ali roofs in 2009 some years after Derek passed away. They looked like BSL but i cant remember where I obtained them...
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
I havn't abandoned my LMS build, family life got in the way!
With the current spell of cooler weather I decided it was time to attempt lining the side. I debated whether to do the more elaborate panelled style or the later simplified style. Having never lined an LMS coach in my life I opted for the simpler style.
In preparation I prepared a piece of aluminium to act as a practice sheet spraying uPol 8 Acid Etch, Halfords' Red Primer and Gloss Red. The ruling pen is of unknown manufacture but has been honed as per my YouTube videos. Humbrol Gloss Black has been lined, the first one being wider than I wanted. Difficult to show up clearly in a photo:
The ruler I am using is as shown. This has the advantage of not only being non-slip but the ruling edge is raised slightly off the model surface being lined:
With baited breath I have applied the two horizontal lines to the sides, hopefully in the right place. Definately easier with the sides relatively flat:
When dry I will add the yellow lines which hopefully will be more visible!
With the current spell of cooler weather I decided it was time to attempt lining the side. I debated whether to do the more elaborate panelled style or the later simplified style. Having never lined an LMS coach in my life I opted for the simpler style.
In preparation I prepared a piece of aluminium to act as a practice sheet spraying uPol 8 Acid Etch, Halfords' Red Primer and Gloss Red. The ruling pen is of unknown manufacture but has been honed as per my YouTube videos. Humbrol Gloss Black has been lined, the first one being wider than I wanted. Difficult to show up clearly in a photo:
The ruler I am using is as shown. This has the advantage of not only being non-slip but the ruling edge is raised slightly off the model surface being lined:
With baited breath I have applied the two horizontal lines to the sides, hopefully in the right place. Definately easier with the sides relatively flat:
When dry I will add the yellow lines which hopefully will be more visible!
Stephen Freeman
Western Thunderer
Have you measured the width of said ruler? You may find something interesting, I did.
Mike Trice
Western Thunderer
The Humbrol Black was used straight from the tin. Gloss Yellow (69) was far too thin. Tried Matt 154 which is far too thick. So I need to thicken the Gloss Yellow before continuing (let it settle and pour off some oil):
