Building an MMP RMB - a box of delights

[Bob Reid]

On the real thing Simon the handles pass over the edge of the door pillars and they are quite subtly waisted to boot!

See this image;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/transrail/8443486877/

 

[Heather Kay]

I only make these comments because the kit appears to otherwise be a very accurate model and you are going the "extra mile" on lots of details

No need to apologise, Simon. Your comments are valid.

My first thought was the handles are too large, but while they don't have the waist they seem about right for length. Like so many other features, I expect David spent a lot of time measuring the real thing. The door handles are formed from an etch face with wire soldered into a depression on the back.

(Incidentally, the castings I've used in other kits have barely a passing resemblance to the correct size and shape! Using an etch for the handle at least gives some uniformity to the shape and size.)

I admit to having enough trouble handling the tiny components as it is, without feeling a need to reshape things while I go. Yes, now you raise it, the shape doesn't quite look right, but I am not sure what - if anything - I can do about it now. I used to sweat the small stuff on 4mm models, but I don't know how I ever managed it!

As I type this morning, surveying my efforts with the roof yesterday, I'm feeling a bit jaded by the whole experience. Despite my best efforts - and most of a day fitting cant rail gutters seems excessive, if I'm honest - things haven't gone quite as smoothly as I'd hoped.

I think it's time to let the model return to the shelf for a spell. I have other builds that have been nagging at me for a while.

 

[Simon]

Ironic, as I'm pretty sure the handles on the G1MCo coaches are on the under-nourished side, the doorstops also I think.

I guess part of the "problem" is that this is a kit where literally everything can be built from the contents, a lot or most of which are built up from etches. Speaking personally, I find this very challenging and looking at your picture of all the handle etches for example just makes me think of how could they be done another way, make a pattern and cast them for example.

On the other hand I know a lot of people derive a lot of pleasure from builds such as these, in fact I think that our much missed Cynric was one of them, really relishing the construction of lots of fine detail.

Me? I'm a bodger at heart, always interested in the easiest way!

Don't be disheartened, you are building the kit as designed and the finished result is definitely going to look like an RMB.

Simon

 

[Heather Kay]

Don't be disheartened, you are building the kit as designed and the finished result is definitely going to look like an RMB.

Oh, it will, if I can get the roof to fit sensibly.

It is definitely a builder's kit. David P has said as much. It's a kit that is designed to be a pleasure to build, and take as long as the builder wants to take.

I'm not disheartened. I just need to refresh my palette with something else.

 

[djparkins]

Ironic, as I'm pretty sure the handles on the G1MCo coaches are on the under-nourished side, the doorstops also I think.

I guess part of the "problem" is that this is a kit where literally everything can be built from the contents, a lot or most of which are built up from etches. Speaking personally, I find this very challenging and looking at your picture of all the handle etches for example just makes me think of how could they be done another way, make a pattern and cast them for example.

On the other hand I know a lot of people derive a lot of pleasure from builds such as these, in fact I think that our much missed Cynric was one of them, really relishing the construction of lots of fine detail.

Me? I'm a bodger at heart, always interested in the easiest way!

Don't be disheartened, you are building the kit as designed and the finished result is definitely going to look like an RMB.

Simon

Simon -
I really think you need to back-up to the first part of this thread where the contents of the coach & interior kits for this RMB are shown and then consider just what you get for £213.00 - and here I am deliberately EXCLUDING VAT for reasons you will see later. The comparison will relate to a book I have purchased from you quite recently.

So you want cast brass door handles/steps et al. Then we would very quicky be adding another £40 to the kit. And before you say someting along the lines of - 'but I would be prepared to pay more for the convenience of lost wax handles etc.' - let me tell you that most of our customers would not. Many are really hurting right now and price is a very major factor - every modelling pound available to most of them counts. Many are time rich/money poor and kits such as ours are ideal for them. I advised Heather right at the begining of this that these kits are impossible to build on a commercial/charge by hour basis. The whole ethos around them is that they are designed for people who like to build models for themselves, without clock-watching or trying to finish Stage 843 before tea!

So you find kits like this 'challenging' and prefer to 'bodge' as you call it. Why, then were you among those people urging us to try our hand at 1/32nd scale kits? What did you think you would get in a 1/32nd MMP Class 08 shunter for instance? Possibly you imagined that it would have even more castings in it than our 7mm one and less etch. To be viable economically [always my overiding concern as I'm a mean b*st*rd] it would have had about a quarter the castings and much much more etched fabrication - possibly three times the number of etched parts actually. To give you an idea re-32nd scale, take a look at the parts layout on our web site for our Flightpath 1/32nd Scale Tornado Set for the Revell kit [of which we have sold over 2000]. As I recall there are around 27 parts in each ejector seat - and that is only to detail the kit parts! Surely part of the fun of any adult hobby [as opposed to a Hornby train set] is to be challenged and to progress ones skill levels.

Now recently I had the misfortune to purchase from you the Wild Swan LMS Review book that is supposed to replace to some extent the excellent LMS Journal. A price hike of £8.00 to £18.95 - and no VAT involved in that [see above]. There are two or three articles in there of any substance but one other was listed on enhancing a 4mm 50' LMS full brake. Great I thought - drawings - ref. photos - detailed notes. What is there? - one photo and just under a page of text. This magazine is overly 'waisted' at the front, in the middle & at the back! Just compare that [or some other over-priced books that are being released] with what is in our RMB kit.

I don't think you will get better Mk.1 kits than ours at the moment, in any scale - and given the state of the O gauge kit market currently and [I suspect] into the future, I doubt that will change. Heather, [as far as I know] added none/little extra detail to the underframe other than to dual brake it, which the kit was never designed for but Richard obviously required for the perod he is modelling. The kits were designed to be constructed as they were originally built - vac braked and steam heated and with all the destination boards/brackets etc. - for our own purposes, as we need 27 Mk.1 vehicles for our own layout needs and anything else out there Mk.1-wise was not really up to scratch. We require a 10 coach corr. set, a 4 coach corr. set, a 6 coach non-gangwayed set + parcels vehicles. If we hadn't needed these, the kits would never have been produced.

I very much doubt you will find more detail in any coach kit available. If you look at our non-ganwayed BS kit - it even includes the slipping spyhole in the end of the guard's compt. - a throwback to their time on the WR - before being tansferred to a serious railway [runs for cover!].

At least in our kits the body does not sit on a plinth, or the inner solebars end at the shallow underframe cross members - as on one parcels van I saw on this site recently! - a concession no doubt to the 4' radius merchants.

DJP/MMP
www.djparkins.com

 

[djparkins]

David, was the misfortune (my highlight and italics) that you bought it from Simon? Or a fault of the skimpy books description of what was inside?

I'm with you on the more recent publications that seem to now abound, most are hellish expensive and often have little new material or are poorly reproduced, having said that, Wild Swan are one of the better publishers but like you I'm not a fan of the new range.

Regarding kits, there appears two routes developers follow, etched parts to make virtually everything up and cast parts to make parts up, an example would be the 08 axle boxes, on the MMP I believe (not checked in the box recently) they are fold up etches to form the box that is visible on the outer frames, an alternative would be a cast white metal or brass box with a hole in the middle.

I can empathise with both approaches, as a CAD dabbler I'd opt for the fold up etch, simply because I have full control over it's final form, it can be supplied in the etch work and I'm not beholden to anyone else to produce the part, ergo the overall cost will be cheaper. Plus I can do etching but not casting, so for my stuff I'd virtually always opt for the etch fold up option.

Now, on the other hand, as a modeller I'd like cast boxes that just need a quick whizz with a file and broach and fit

Another item that can easily be made both ways are sand boxes, fold up etchings or castings.

There is no right or wrong way in my mind and if you purchase a kit and these details are important to you, then I feel it's only fair to research first, if after that your happy then you have to accept what you get in the kit and make the best of it.

Mick -

Fully agreed - there are always two [or many more] ways of arriving at an outcome. We had cast axleboxes in the 08 kit originally. We improved them [I thought] by going etched with them as it cut out any shrinkage variability but also it was part of a re-design to avoid a price increase [see previous posting].

As regards the book - not the misfortune to have purchased it from Simon [always a good service] but the misfortune to have wasted my money on it!

Regards,

DJP

 

[Steph Dale]

Another item that can be developed both ways are springs, whilst researching 8fF's and Black Fives, it struck me that loco and tender springs (non working) could be formed almost in total from etchings, much like some of your stock, even to the point of J hangers and swing links to attach to them.

One can easily argue that these are already in the market place as castings and from some sources are very very good, but the etched ones would be significantly cheaper; taking up mere pence on an etched sheet. But, as you note above, would be time expensive.

Mick,
Believe me that most modellers would be incapable of putting them together too, so for most cosmetic items in most kits castings make a great deal of sense. There are a lot of components usually provided as castings that could be etched or fabricated, but in most cases is not a path I'd recommend for most etch kit designers. It's a little different if you're designing for yourself; where the etching is just an alternative to a piercing saw, files and drills.
Steph

 

[tomstaf]

Simon -

The kits were designed to be constructed as they were originally built - vac braked and steam heated and with all the destination boards/brackets etc. - for our own purposes, as we need 27 Mk.1 vehicles for our own layout needs and anything else out there Mk.1-wise was not really up to scratch. We require a 10 coach corr. set, a 4 coach corr. set, a 6 coach non-gangwayed set + parcels vehicles. If we hadn't needed these, the kits would never have been produced.

DJP/MMP
www.djparkins.com

Hi David,

Seeing as you mention the above wouldn't have been produced unless you needed them, is the 92 in the same bracket or just on the extremely low burner at the moment?

Cheers

Tom

 

[djparkins]

Hi David,

Seeing as you mention the above wouldn't have been produced unless you needed them, is the 92 in the same bracket or just on the extremely low burner at the moment?

Cheers

Tom

Tom -

Give us a chance we have only had the casting patterns made since around 1995! The Sprinters were done in 1988.

Seriously though - it will come out at some point - afraid we are prioritising military stuff right now though.

David

 

[djparkins]

Another item that can be developed both ways are springs, whilst researching 8fF's and Black Fives, it struck me that loco and tender springs (non working) could be formed almost in total from etchings, much like some of your stock, even to the point of J hangers and swing links to attach to them.

Mick -

Exactly the way my mind was going - but we will hedge our bets! When our 'new' 08 appears again it will have a choice of both cast and individual leaf springs.

 

[tomstaf]

Tom -

Give us a chance we have only had the casting patterns made since around 1995! The Sprinters were done in 1988.

David

This has got to be a record, see whether you can get them out on their 20th and 30th anniversaries.

Cheers

Tom

 

[Simon]

Simon -
I really think you need to back-up to the first part of this thread where the contents of the coach & interior kits for this RMB are shown and then consider just what you get for £213.00 - and here I am deliberately EXCLUDING VAT for reasons you will see later. The comparison will relate to a book I have purchased from you quite recently.

So you want cast brass door handles/steps et al. Then we would very quicky be adding another £40 to the kit. And before you say someting along the lines of - 'but I would be prepared to pay more for the convenience of lost wax handles etc.' - let me tell you that most of our customers would not. Many are really hurting right now and price is a very major factor - every modelling pound available to most of them counts. Many are time rich/money poor and kits such as ours are ideal for them. I advised Heather right at the begining of this that these kits are impossible to build on a commercial/charge by hour basis. The whole ethos around them is that they are designed for people who like to build models for themselves, without clock-watching or trying to finish Stage 843 before tea!

So you find kits like this 'challenging' and prefer to 'bodge' as you call it. Why, then were you among those people urging us to try our hand at 1/32nd scale kits? What did you think you would get in a 1/32nd MMP Class 08 shunter for instance? Possibly you imagined that it would have even more castings in it than our 7mm one and less etch. To be viable economically [always my overiding concern as I'm a mean b*st*rd] it would have had about a quarter the castings and much much more etched fabrication - possibly three times the number of etched parts actually. To give you an idea re-32nd scale, take a look at the parts layout on our web site for our Flightpath 1/32nd Scale Tornado Set for the Revell kit [of which we have sold over 2000]. As I recall there are around 27 parts in each ejector seat - and that is only to detail the kit parts! Surely part of the fun of any adult hobby [as opposed to a Hornby train set] is to be challenged and to progress ones skill levels.

Now recently I had the misfortune to purchase from you the Wild Swan LMS Review book that is supposed to replace to some extent the excellent LMS Journal. A price hike of £8.00 to £18.95 - and no VAT involved in that [see above]. There are two or three articles in there of any substance but one other was listed on enhancing a 4mm 50' LMS full brake. Great I thought - drawings - ref. photos - detailed notes. What is there? - one photo and just under a page of text. This magazine is overly 'waisted' at the front, in the middle & at the back! Just compare that [or some other over-priced books that are being released] with what is in our RMB kit.

I don't think you will get better Mk.1 kits than ours at the moment, in any scale - and given the state of the O gauge kit market currently and [I suspect] into the future, I doubt that will change. Heather, [as far as I know] added none/little extra detail to the underframe other than to dual brake it, which the kit was never designed for but Richard obviously required for the perod he is modelling. The kits were designed to be constructed as they were originally built - vac braked and steam heated and with all the destination boards/brackets etc. - for our own purposes, as we need 27 Mk.1 vehicles for our own layout needs and anything else out there Mk.1-wise was not really up to scratch. We require a 10 coach corr. set, a 4 coach corr. set, a 6 coach non-gangwayed set + parcels vehicles. If we hadn't needed these, the kits would never have been produced.

I very much doubt you will find more detail in any coach kit available. If you look at our non-ganwayed BS kit - it even includes the slipping spyhole in the end of the guard's compt. - a throwback to their time on the WR - before being tansferred to a serious railway [runs for cover!].

At least in our kits the body does not sit on a plinth, or the inner solebars end at the shallow underframe cross members - as on one parcels van I saw on this site recently! - a concession no doubt to the 4' radius merchants.

David, thanks for taking the time to respond to my posting, you have raised some interesting points.

Whilst I do accept that my comments regarding Heathers "handles and bumpers" amount to a (very minor) criticism of your kit, I did also make several statements to the effect that it is by all accounts a very fine thing. I've not built or encountered one myself so my comments are based on what I have seen and heard on WT, in addition to the knowledge that you are someone who takes the business of kit production and veracity to prototype very seriously.

As far as "urging you to try your hand at 1/32 scale kits" I can only think that you have confused me with Simon Dunkley as to my knowledge (and I stand to be corrected if I've forgotten anything here) I have never done anything of the sort. Which is not to say that I would be anything other than pleased if you were ever to produce a kit in 1/32 scale, of course.

I was not suggesting that you should provide castings in the kit, I was rather talking about what my instincts would be as a builder upon being faced by the number of etched pieces that go together to make these items on your coach. I do however quite take your point about the enjoyment to be had from the process, I had rather hoped that my mentioning of Cynric's enthusiasm for such detailed builds might have been an acknowledgment of this point. I should add that I'm sure I'd feel just as queasy about parts of Martin Finney's kits too, so I'm putting you in very good company(!)

To return to the G1MCo Mk 1 coach, (four examples of which I have in my possession) I actually find its door handles unconvincing and will be exploring ways of replacing them, a nice lost wax brass casting would be just the job I think. However, at the price and notwithstanding the "plinth" issue I think that they are near miraculous pieces of kit that convey a very large degree of Mk1ish-ness.

As regards "the best Mk 1 kit" you may be right, although I suspect you'd have a job bettering Fred Phipps 1/32 kit, which makes up into a very believable vehicle indeed.

Price-wise, I'd suggest that at £213 your kit is possibly under valued, although you will know better than I on this point - I certainly wouldn't call it over priced.

On the book front, I'd certainly agree with you that the LMS Review at £18.95 represents a price point that is a long way off that of LMS Journal which it has to some extent replaced. However we should bear in mind that one reason why LMS Journal ceased was that it was effectively costing Paul money to produce, (low sales, not charging enough) which is not a viable situation.

For information the actual sales of LMS Review have now achieved a figure that means a following issue in the series is now in production. I can accept that it does not (for you) represent "value for money", but I feel the description of it as a "waste of money" is an unjustified over statement of case.

On the price issue alone, I rather fear that it is just the price it needs to be. Consider the Middleton Press series as an example, Vic has just raised the price of all his albums from £16.95 to £17.95 across the board, including all backlist.

I appreciate that they are hardbacks, their format is both novel and useful and they are very successful, but I do not see them as being in the same league (a mere pound less) than the LMS Review under discussion.

Is Vic wrong to push his prices up? I really don't know, part of me think's he's a cheeky old rogue, but probably the larger part of me admires his chutzpah and confidence in his product. Perhaps we should all be more like him from a business point of view?

Books are not expensive in the UK, we are blessed with a large variety of high quality publications and a lively and competitive market.

I would judge that very much the same could be said for the craft (railway) model kit suppliers in the UK too.

Long may it last!

Simon

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi

Simon, and David before him, make a number of interesting points.

The one I want to pick up on, maybe from an oblique angle, is one of confidence and inspiration- that's mine, as a modeller. I too bought a copy of the LMS review. I too thought it expensive when I picked it up, sufficiently expensive that I was not prepared to buy it without looking carefully at the contents, as I would have been prepared to do on spec at a lower price point.

Is it worth it? To me, absolutely. Part 1 of the LMS tenders is the best, most comprehensive review of LMS 3500 gallon tenders I have ever seen. Hell, I'd have spent £18.95 just for that. All my research prayers answered, and I look forward to part 2. This is where the confidence bit comes in. Although I reckon I'm pretty good on LMS 3500 tenders (Austin 7, 2P, Stanier Mogul, 2 x Patriots, Crab), this fills in any gaps in my knowledge, and saves a load of research and decision time. I have more confidence that what I am doing is correct.

Inspiration. More pictorial than anything else, and the icing on the cake as far as the publication was concerned, the 7mm model of 10000 is inspiring. I love seeing fantastic models (in any scale), but having built 10001, I can appreciate the extra mile that has been travelled. I am inspired and enthused, and it makes me want to do better.

Now I appreciate that it isn't everyone's cup of tea, and we all have different price values, but for me, fantastic, and worth every penny.

Put me down for no.2 Simon

Richard

 

[djparkins]

As far as "urging you to try your hand at 1/32 scale kits" I can only think that you have confused me with Simon Dunkley as to my knowledge (and I stand to be corrected if I've forgotten anything here) I have never done anything of the sort.

Simon -

It was on a compliments slip in with some books I purchased from you - something to the effect of it would be nice to see us doing something in 32nd. I obviously took that to mean you would be a potential customer - hope springing eternal in the human breast!

As regards our Mk.1 being about the most detailed out there - I was referring to 7mm. Although I can see many details in our own kits that are not on any 32nd scale kit and I have not even seen the interiors.

DJP

 

[djparkins]

Hi

Simon, and David before him, make a number of interesting points.

The one I want to pick up on, maybe from an oblique angle, is one of confidence and inspiration- that's mine, as a modeller. I too bought a copy of the LMS review. I too thought it expensive when I picked it up, sufficiently expensive that I was not prepared to buy it without looking carefully at the contents, as I would have been prepared to do on spec at a lower price point.

Is it worth it? To me, absolutely. Part 1 of the LMS tenders is the best, most comprehensive review of LMS 3500 gallon tenders I have ever seen. Hell, I'd have spent £18.95 just for that. All my research prayers answered, and I look forward to part 2. This is where the confidence bit comes in. Although I reckon I'm pretty good on LMS 3500 tenders (Austin 7, 2P, Stanier Mogul, 2 x Patriots, Crab), this fills in any gaps in my knowledge, and saves a load of research and decision time. I have more confidence that what I am doing is correct.

Inspiration. More pictorial than anything else, and the icing on the cake as far as the publication was concerned, the 7mm model of 10000 is inspiring. I love seeing fantastic models (in any scale), but having built 10001, I can appreciate the extra mile that has been travelled. I am inspired and enthused, and it makes me want to do better.

Now I appreciate that it isn't everyone's cup of tea, and we all have different price values, but for me, fantastic, and worth every penny.

Put me down for no.2 Simon

Richard

Richard,

Yes I can see its better value from that standpoint but I purchased it unseen for one article only and that was certainly not promoted as being a minor article in relation to the others. It did not turn out out to be minor - rather it was miniscule!

Wild Swan seems to be one of those sacred cows that cannot be criticised. I shall not be renewing my subscription to MRJ which has also gone through the floor. It has always been very cliqueish but they need a permanent editor - bring back Tim Shackleton!

The railway book industry needs to look to the Aviation sector and get away from this picture album with captions thing. Patrick Martins recently published his two part history of the Phantom in British service [which I was able to assist with in a very minor way] is a lesson in what reference books can be and are outstanding value for money.

DJP

 

[AJC]

...I shall not be renewing my subscription to MRJ which has also gone through the floor. It has always been very cliqueish but they need a permanent editor - bring back Tim Shackleton!

The railway book industry needs to look to the Aviation sector and get away from this picture album with captions thing. Patrick Martins recently published his two part history of the Phantom in British service [which I was able to assist with in a very minor way] is a lesson in what reference books can be and are outstanding value for money.

DJP

Wild, off-topic aside:

I'm kind of with you David, particularly with regard to MRJ being desperately in need of a permanent editor to re-shape its content and ethos. Recent editions are full of minor errors which should have been picked up at the copy editing stage. That said, re-reading the MRJ thread on this forum would not be hugely enjoyable for those in Didcot if that was the sort of thing they spent their time doing.

Even wilder off-topic aside...

The difference between much aviation publishing and railway publishing is, I suspect, probably a reflection of authorship and market. The one tends to come from a those with a user background, with a significant enthusiast audience, so far as I can see, while the latter emerge from an enthusiast perspective. Working in a branch of academic publishing that makes some use of railway books, we find that the majority are of limited use as reference works. Inadequate referencing or, at least, explanation of research materials, poor editorial input and copy-editing are typical. Honourable exceptions include quite a bit of the output of Oakwood Press, Twelveheads, the old OPC and Wild Swan (we don't need to use loco studies for what we do but their line histories are reliable). I have spent time weeding out references to Middleton Press volumes as unsuitable in the recent past.

These are a different beast to the picture album whose captions are often littered with irrelevant detail - the location and architectural details of various stately homes whose names adorned GWR 4-6-0s, for example, - and assumed knowledge of the content of photographs which are not immediately obvious. Book 'reviews' in magazines are generally descriptive and wholly uncritical. Fact is, however, these picture albums sell and are produced to turnover quickly at print runs probably two to three times the 400 or so most academic volumes print.

Drifting back onto topic, I can say that the DJP kit is a country mile better than the 4mm equivalent from Comet and a significant improvement on the 'finescale' standard; a tarted up Bachmann mk 1 and, like Simon, I reckon that at the price, it's significantly undervalued though that too, undoubtedly, is a function of the what the market will pay.

Adam

 

[AJC]

By way of a PS: Pretty much all our authors, many of them experienced types, familiar with lots of different types of history and archaeological writing, have made similar observations about railway books and always unprompted; it's a common complaint. I have a good selection of the picture books and the pictures are useful. The captions, generally, aren't.

Adam

 

[OzzyO]

Dear Ozzy

I was - and apologies if I hadn't made this clear - writing from the viewpoint of what I do as a day job. Pretty much all our authors, many of them experienced types, familiar with lots of different types of history and archaeological writing, have made similar observations about railway books and always unprompted; it's a common complaint. I have a good selection of the picture books and the pictures are useful. The captions, generally, aren't.

Best wishes

Adam

PS: I hope the additional break in the longer paragraph helps. If you want to be rude about my thoughts, then fine, that's your prerogative. In the meantime, I'll just get on enjoying my modelling and admiring your 7mm loco building.

Hello Adam,

if you though I was being rude about your thoughts I'm sorry. I did not mean it to come across that way, but to have my reply removed just seems a bit curt.

OzzyO.

 

[Dikitriki]

Paul

I removed your post. I thought it was rude and not in the spirit of WT.

Can we return the thread to Heather's topic please. If we wish to discuss the merits of publishing genres, then by all means start a separate topic.

Richard

 

[djparkins]

Can we return the thread to Heather's topic please. If we wish to discuss the merits of publishing genres, then by all means start a separate topic.

Richard

Sorry about that Richard - it just kind of developed [as threads will] all due to my value for money comparison of the kit in question and a book - so I feel kind of responsible for the thread hijack. I shall live in salt for the rest of the evening!

DJP