Finescale - of a sort?!
- Thread starter Peter Insole
- Start date
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thanks Michael, you are quite right! I found myself ruefully thinking that solid rod would have been so much easier to bend, even while I was grappling with the hollow stuff on the workbench yesterday!
The only reason why I chose the awkward material in the first place was a combination of misplaced notions of recycling - and having a load of it already "in stock"!
Thanks too class27 for your suggestion and most kind offer! However, the tube I'm using is 3/16" - and that turns out to be oversize (albeit, only for the pressure gauge and gauge glass blow down pipes) on the prototype. Its looks as if 1/8'' - (or the nearest metric equivalent) of either tube or rod would be the closest to scale appearance in the end!
I do need to order some brass rod (in a couple of sizes) to make the gauge isolating cock (globe valve) and a few other bits and bobs - so I might as well add a cut length of copper at the same time!
How much more reckless can I get eh?!!
Pete.
The only reason why I chose the awkward material in the first place was a combination of misplaced notions of recycling - and having a load of it already "in stock"!
Thanks too class27 for your suggestion and most kind offer! However, the tube I'm using is 3/16" - and that turns out to be oversize (albeit, only for the pressure gauge and gauge glass blow down pipes) on the prototype. Its looks as if 1/8'' - (or the nearest metric equivalent) of either tube or rod would be the closest to scale appearance in the end!
I do need to order some brass rod (in a couple of sizes) to make the gauge isolating cock (globe valve) and a few other bits and bobs - so I might as well add a cut length of copper at the same time!
How much more reckless can I get eh?!!
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Postscript to the previous post:
I have been searching for both 1/8" copper tube and round bar, and as far as pricing is concerned, it would seem to be a case of "think of a number - any number will do"! The variations for the same specification of material is both surprising and utterly confusing for me!
A thick walled, 1/8 inch steam pipe, specifically marketed for Mamod engines, and conveniently available in a minimum of 12" lengths seems to be the cheapest that I have found so far - and certainly less than solid round bar - so is perhaps the way I will go?!
Pete.
I have been searching for both 1/8" copper tube and round bar, and as far as pricing is concerned, it would seem to be a case of "think of a number - any number will do"! The variations for the same specification of material is both surprising and utterly confusing for me!
A thick walled, 1/8 inch steam pipe, specifically marketed for Mamod engines, and conveniently available in a minimum of 12" lengths seems to be the cheapest that I have found so far - and certainly less than solid round bar - so is perhaps the way I will go?!
Pete.
michael mott
Western Thunderer
Pete if you can fill the 1/8 inch tube with some styrene you will be able to bend a very tight curve. You can see an example of this on the brass engine I made in the thread with the drill I posted recently.
Michael
Michael
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you Michael for that very useful tip, that sounds like a great idea.
I do take some comfort knowing that when I use a smaller section of tube I should have less difficulty than trying to bend a half circle (at a radius that was relative to the proportions of the pressure gauge) in an excess diameter pipe! I suppose it is little wonder that I had problems attempting to force that 3/16ths tube, almost to it's limit, and into a scaled curve that it was never really designed for?!
Pete.
I do take some comfort knowing that when I use a smaller section of tube I should have less difficulty than trying to bend a half circle (at a radius that was relative to the proportions of the pressure gauge) in an excess diameter pipe! I suppose it is little wonder that I had problems attempting to force that 3/16ths tube, almost to it's limit, and into a scaled curve that it was never really designed for?!
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Oh dear, I am perhaps running too many separate threads on here, and that coupled with my own personal health issues has meant this particular subject has been forgotten for a while!
There had been some progress - although much of it has been not such "pretty" repairs, maintenance and modifications to report on - but nonetheless, I apologise for not providing you all with any updates!
There is an old saying that goes along the lines of; we need another holiday to get over the one we just had! For me that was true to some extent, but it was more a case of picking up and bringing something slightly snotty, grotty and spluttery home... so after almost a week, I am only now recovering enough to get fully back on my feet again! I am only mentioning all this because it will have a bearing in the next couple of posts.
It all started oh so stunning, sunny and superb...
The view from the flat, looking straight ahead on the day we arrived!
Not only could we see the glorious Cader range beyond the beautiful Mawddach estuary, with the recently reinstated bridge carrying regular trains thereover again, but also, when looking slightly to the right:
Daily steam workings on the little Fairbourne Railway too! What's not to like eh?!
After that scenic diversion, please come back with me to last December (!) in order to bring the story more up to date:
I did in the end replace the pressure gauge pipe with the 1/8th inch "Mamod" stuff, and was much more satisfied with the result. Having fitted it, I then needed an isolating cock to attach it to the manifold. Therein lay yet another problem...
The above image (taken for my benefit by our Tom) of "Wren" at the NRM reveals something of an unfortunate history - as well as a trap for any potential researchers.
Apart from the injector steam valve body, shown in the foreground and towards bottom left, and one single part of the brake valve, on the opposite side of the cast manifold, NONE of the fittings visible are original, in-service items!
All the various bits, bobs and plumbing in that picture had been cobbled together post "restoration". It was not only the attention of souvenir hunters back in the 1960's while the engine was in storage either - as other vital bits have been subsequently "removed" or otherwise "lost" since it had been prominently displayed in the busy museum foyer!
We are fortunate that some parts are reasonably clear in the general arrangement drawings available - and details can similarly be checked against photos taken in the 1930's... but by no means all! The original pressure gauge isolating cock shows quite well in several shots, so I was happy to continue.
Unlike the NRM example, the genuine article was a notably slender affair that had been designed with a small, heart shaped, "gas tap" type handle, that later had been replaced on all the Horwich engines with a more conventional, lever variety.
I decided to use another one of my recently acquired collection of redundant gas fitting, compression nuts (pretty damned close enough to correct scale) to save some time and effort.
Again, as with the pressure gauge itself, I cut a short section of male thread off an elbow casting, made a plain, but tight fitting stud to fit both the body and the internal bore of the threaded section, and soldered them together.
After my disastrous first attempts at bending tapered brass rod for the gauge glass handles, and despite having gained some experience of "annealing" since then, the next task still filled me with trepidation!
First off was making sure that the tapered end section would fit and rotate nicely in the prepared valve body...
Then the fun really started:
Being tapered along it's entire length, I could not grip any part of the handle in anything other than a pair of pliers at the scrap end with one hand, while applying lots of heat from a gas torch in the other... dropping the glowing red rod into the pot of cold water and then waiting for the object to cool just enough to fish out with bare fingers... slip two lengths of K&S tube over either end... hoping all the time that I had got the inner ends in the right place for the bend... fingers clenched over both tubes, thumbs firmly placed just as close as possible to the bending point... and heave!
It goes really easily at first, but "work hardens" surprisingly quickly! After a couple of dunkings, I started to get a "feel" of when the bar didn't want to move any further! It took a fair number of cycles to finally bring it round to a 90 degree turn though!
In retrospect, I think I might have tried starting the bend a fraction further up the handle from the "shoulder"... but it was a first ever try - and amazingly, I managed not to snap it... so I remain content to leave it well alone now!
Even more so, as I have since discovered a local source of some really nice, reasonably priced brass nuts that are perfect for finishing off all the remaining backhead fittings!
Pete.
There had been some progress - although much of it has been not such "pretty" repairs, maintenance and modifications to report on - but nonetheless, I apologise for not providing you all with any updates!
There is an old saying that goes along the lines of; we need another holiday to get over the one we just had! For me that was true to some extent, but it was more a case of picking up and bringing something slightly snotty, grotty and spluttery home... so after almost a week, I am only now recovering enough to get fully back on my feet again! I am only mentioning all this because it will have a bearing in the next couple of posts.
It all started oh so stunning, sunny and superb...
The view from the flat, looking straight ahead on the day we arrived!
Not only could we see the glorious Cader range beyond the beautiful Mawddach estuary, with the recently reinstated bridge carrying regular trains thereover again, but also, when looking slightly to the right:
Daily steam workings on the little Fairbourne Railway too! What's not to like eh?!
After that scenic diversion, please come back with me to last December (!) in order to bring the story more up to date:
I did in the end replace the pressure gauge pipe with the 1/8th inch "Mamod" stuff, and was much more satisfied with the result. Having fitted it, I then needed an isolating cock to attach it to the manifold. Therein lay yet another problem...
The above image (taken for my benefit by our Tom) of "Wren" at the NRM reveals something of an unfortunate history - as well as a trap for any potential researchers.
Apart from the injector steam valve body, shown in the foreground and towards bottom left, and one single part of the brake valve, on the opposite side of the cast manifold, NONE of the fittings visible are original, in-service items!
All the various bits, bobs and plumbing in that picture had been cobbled together post "restoration". It was not only the attention of souvenir hunters back in the 1960's while the engine was in storage either - as other vital bits have been subsequently "removed" or otherwise "lost" since it had been prominently displayed in the busy museum foyer!
We are fortunate that some parts are reasonably clear in the general arrangement drawings available - and details can similarly be checked against photos taken in the 1930's... but by no means all! The original pressure gauge isolating cock shows quite well in several shots, so I was happy to continue.
Unlike the NRM example, the genuine article was a notably slender affair that had been designed with a small, heart shaped, "gas tap" type handle, that later had been replaced on all the Horwich engines with a more conventional, lever variety.
I decided to use another one of my recently acquired collection of redundant gas fitting, compression nuts (pretty damned close enough to correct scale) to save some time and effort.
Again, as with the pressure gauge itself, I cut a short section of male thread off an elbow casting, made a plain, but tight fitting stud to fit both the body and the internal bore of the threaded section, and soldered them together.
After my disastrous first attempts at bending tapered brass rod for the gauge glass handles, and despite having gained some experience of "annealing" since then, the next task still filled me with trepidation!
First off was making sure that the tapered end section would fit and rotate nicely in the prepared valve body...
Then the fun really started:
Being tapered along it's entire length, I could not grip any part of the handle in anything other than a pair of pliers at the scrap end with one hand, while applying lots of heat from a gas torch in the other... dropping the glowing red rod into the pot of cold water and then waiting for the object to cool just enough to fish out with bare fingers... slip two lengths of K&S tube over either end... hoping all the time that I had got the inner ends in the right place for the bend... fingers clenched over both tubes, thumbs firmly placed just as close as possible to the bending point... and heave!
It goes really easily at first, but "work hardens" surprisingly quickly! After a couple of dunkings, I started to get a "feel" of when the bar didn't want to move any further! It took a fair number of cycles to finally bring it round to a 90 degree turn though!
In retrospect, I think I might have tried starting the bend a fraction further up the handle from the "shoulder"... but it was a first ever try - and amazingly, I managed not to snap it... so I remain content to leave it well alone now!
Even more so, as I have since discovered a local source of some really nice, reasonably priced brass nuts that are perfect for finishing off all the remaining backhead fittings!
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Yesterday I genuinely thought the apparently mild case of lurgi was passing, and happily went out in the afternoon with Mrs. I and Mr. O - especially for a "last ride" with Rich, (formerly of this parish) on his final day driving our local buses. (He is moving on to great big, three axle, all steering, all singing and dancing, luxury, long distance coaches from Monday by the way!) Our grand jolly only turned out to be on the hottest day so far around these parts, and whilst everyone paid a somewhat heavy price - it very nearly finished me off!
Today therefore, I'm having to stay calmly in the shade and make sure I'm more fully hydrated, so now is a good time to continue the story?!
Back then to last winter, and buoyed up by my success with the annealing trick on the little cock handle, I straightaway launched myself into making up the blower valve!
Once again, "NRM Wren" is not only no help whatsoever, but is actually downright misleading... but all is not quite lost however!
Having said that, and whilst I have no wish to be critical, I do feel compelled, if only from a desire for historical accuracy, to point out that in his otherwise excellent publication; "18 Inch Gauge Steam Railways", Mr Smithers makes some really unfortunate, and quite serious errors in his description of the Beyer Peacock/Horwich locomotives. On this particular point I dare to quote:
"The method of operation of the blower pipe was unorthodox in that the control handle was not located at the driver's end of the locomotive, as was to be expected, but instead it was placed a few inches behind the chimney."
A statement that was all the more surprising, considering that he had already dealt with at length, and provided several good, clear drawings of John Ramsbottom's preceding design for Crewe Works, and although he makes no mention, those illustrations clearly reveal an identical arrangement!
On this forum, (I cannot now remember which particular thread or posts) we have already discussed the method of operation for these railways, and I was delighted to discover further confirmation that as the locomotives, in all cases, were considered at the time as a direct replacement of horses, they were therefore expected to be worked in the same, familiar fashion by drivers walking alongside - rather than actually riding on the almost vestigial footplates! I can also confirm (more of that later) that the necessary controls are indeed within easy reach from just such a remote position!
Although none of the aforementioned has a direct bearing on my own model, early photographs of the engines in original condition do reveal the distinctive little blower valve in it's exalted location atop the boiler, at least with reasonable clarity anyway! The only caveat, for my purposes, is that when the Horwich engines, after around ten years in service, were retrospectively fitted with saddle tanks, the valves had to be shifted aft to the only available spare, upper section of the manifold. The surprise, is that process genuinely appears to have been achieved by modifying the existing, and rather distinctive (presumably Beyer Peacock supplied?) valve bodies, rather than what might now be regarded as a simpler replacement with a new item from stock?! Exactly how that modification was achieved however is, for reasons previously mentioned, now lost forever, so some degree of speculation was my only alternative!
Returning to the task, and in time honoured style, I shaped up a section of 10mm, brass hex, to produce a mainly 8mm round bar, and then made a start on the delightful dunking method!
Oh, oh my dears!!
This was a wholly different kettle of fish!!
Being a complete chump, I really hadn't thought this one through properly beforehand!
Quite apart from the most obvious - and basic fact that I didn't want the thing in one piece anyway, as it would be utterly impossible to thread the valve body on round the curved section later, but by cutting and shaping this rather short length, I had simply left myself with nowhere near enough material to provide any reasonable amount of leverage for the bend!
Even after monkeying around the problem of the lumpy hex bit on one end, the old K&S tube used before gave up completely, and spectacularly on the first attempt! Some much longer and sturdier steel tube started to similarly fail also - but mercifully just survived sufficiently to complete the job!
Good grief! I will never, ever forget the Mother of all Battles that resulted from trying to wrestle this wretched beast into submission!
I think my face was probably quite black by the time I emerged from the cellar stairs, and made an exhausted and rather feeble declaration of triumph in front of a grand audience of one - namely my wife - and to be quite fair to her, who, when the trophy was proffered by a trembling hand, couldn't possibly imagine what all the fuss was about?!
Bless them, one and all, for they will never know why - and if the truth be told, neither do I really...?!
I did feel a bit stupid when having to cut the b****y thing right through the middle in order to solder the resulting two sections into the natty little tapered valve body!
Making another handle was almost a light relief session by comparison with what went before, but even so, I was really glad to completely abandon the workshop for a while thereafter!
Incidentally, after the locomotives were modified by the LYR, the much extended blower pipe on each one of them was run in the manner shown above, where it dived neatly under the re-shaped dome flange at the nearest point, passed invisibly round the left side of the dome itself, to re-emerge from another offset cut-out in the flange, and then in a nice, straight line past the tank filler to the chimney! That fine feature has proved to be a boon for me, as it means that the pipe at the valve end only needs to reach the dome cover - while the remaining section forward can be fixed permanently to the tank top and chimney. Having a barely visible joint, right at the point of entry under the dome doesn't interfere in any way with the sliding and removal action of our own saddle tank!
It would have been much more awkward of course, if the pipe had been left exposed, and in such a loose, cranky state as seen at the NRM more recently!
Pete.
Today therefore, I'm having to stay calmly in the shade and make sure I'm more fully hydrated, so now is a good time to continue the story?!
Back then to last winter, and buoyed up by my success with the annealing trick on the little cock handle, I straightaway launched myself into making up the blower valve!
Once again, "NRM Wren" is not only no help whatsoever, but is actually downright misleading... but all is not quite lost however!
Having said that, and whilst I have no wish to be critical, I do feel compelled, if only from a desire for historical accuracy, to point out that in his otherwise excellent publication; "18 Inch Gauge Steam Railways", Mr Smithers makes some really unfortunate, and quite serious errors in his description of the Beyer Peacock/Horwich locomotives. On this particular point I dare to quote:
"The method of operation of the blower pipe was unorthodox in that the control handle was not located at the driver's end of the locomotive, as was to be expected, but instead it was placed a few inches behind the chimney."
A statement that was all the more surprising, considering that he had already dealt with at length, and provided several good, clear drawings of John Ramsbottom's preceding design for Crewe Works, and although he makes no mention, those illustrations clearly reveal an identical arrangement!
On this forum, (I cannot now remember which particular thread or posts) we have already discussed the method of operation for these railways, and I was delighted to discover further confirmation that as the locomotives, in all cases, were considered at the time as a direct replacement of horses, they were therefore expected to be worked in the same, familiar fashion by drivers walking alongside - rather than actually riding on the almost vestigial footplates! I can also confirm (more of that later) that the necessary controls are indeed within easy reach from just such a remote position!
Although none of the aforementioned has a direct bearing on my own model, early photographs of the engines in original condition do reveal the distinctive little blower valve in it's exalted location atop the boiler, at least with reasonable clarity anyway! The only caveat, for my purposes, is that when the Horwich engines, after around ten years in service, were retrospectively fitted with saddle tanks, the valves had to be shifted aft to the only available spare, upper section of the manifold. The surprise, is that process genuinely appears to have been achieved by modifying the existing, and rather distinctive (presumably Beyer Peacock supplied?) valve bodies, rather than what might now be regarded as a simpler replacement with a new item from stock?! Exactly how that modification was achieved however is, for reasons previously mentioned, now lost forever, so some degree of speculation was my only alternative!
Returning to the task, and in time honoured style, I shaped up a section of 10mm, brass hex, to produce a mainly 8mm round bar, and then made a start on the delightful dunking method!
Oh, oh my dears!!
This was a wholly different kettle of fish!!
Being a complete chump, I really hadn't thought this one through properly beforehand!
Quite apart from the most obvious - and basic fact that I didn't want the thing in one piece anyway, as it would be utterly impossible to thread the valve body on round the curved section later, but by cutting and shaping this rather short length, I had simply left myself with nowhere near enough material to provide any reasonable amount of leverage for the bend!
Even after monkeying around the problem of the lumpy hex bit on one end, the old K&S tube used before gave up completely, and spectacularly on the first attempt! Some much longer and sturdier steel tube started to similarly fail also - but mercifully just survived sufficiently to complete the job!
Good grief! I will never, ever forget the Mother of all Battles that resulted from trying to wrestle this wretched beast into submission!
I think my face was probably quite black by the time I emerged from the cellar stairs, and made an exhausted and rather feeble declaration of triumph in front of a grand audience of one - namely my wife - and to be quite fair to her, who, when the trophy was proffered by a trembling hand, couldn't possibly imagine what all the fuss was about?!
Bless them, one and all, for they will never know why - and if the truth be told, neither do I really...?!
I did feel a bit stupid when having to cut the b****y thing right through the middle in order to solder the resulting two sections into the natty little tapered valve body!
Making another handle was almost a light relief session by comparison with what went before, but even so, I was really glad to completely abandon the workshop for a while thereafter!
Incidentally, after the locomotives were modified by the LYR, the much extended blower pipe on each one of them was run in the manner shown above, where it dived neatly under the re-shaped dome flange at the nearest point, passed invisibly round the left side of the dome itself, to re-emerge from another offset cut-out in the flange, and then in a nice, straight line past the tank filler to the chimney! That fine feature has proved to be a boon for me, as it means that the pipe at the valve end only needs to reach the dome cover - while the remaining section forward can be fixed permanently to the tank top and chimney. Having a barely visible joint, right at the point of entry under the dome doesn't interfere in any way with the sliding and removal action of our own saddle tank!
It would have been much more awkward of course, if the pipe had been left exposed, and in such a loose, cranky state as seen at the NRM more recently!
Pete.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Pete - a "Like" is simply not enough. Thank you for sharing this on WT. I'd love to see all this in a publication - you've picked up so many errors in the "preserved" loco they at least need to be recorded. Your efforts in overcoming the pit falls along the way of making a finescale of a sort" - note, your words - should be equally available.
Thank you.
Brian
Thank you.
Brian
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you too Brian, for your compliments and your continued encouragement for this project. I doubt that I deserve it really?!
I must admit that whilst I very much appreciate every facility that this medium of the internet provides, I remain a passionate believer in the importance of the traditional, printed word. Is it perhaps a notion of, or sense of security that comes from a degree of certainty that, quite unlike data collected and saved electronically, once a book is published, there is more of a likelihood of at least a handful of copies surviving any sort of catastrophe, be it natural or man made?
Your suggestion on very much those lines has coincided with recurring thoughts that I have been having - perhaps particularly so during the holiday just mentioned, and my subsequent confinement earlier this last week. Whilst we were away, I had the opportunity to visit again a favourite location; with an excellent book sales counter that always seems to come up with plenty of specific interest for me! Repeated bouts of illness also keep reminding me of things that I would rather not contemplate too much about.
I must admit to suffering some anxieties at the prospect of authorship though:
Having only earlier today been mercilessly critical of someone else's dedication and hard work, I am slightly terrified by the finality of printed publication, knowing only too well my own limitations and an unerring ability to make even more erroneous judgements myself. Once committed to print, it is impossible to retract!
The thing that gives me the greatest comfort and pleasure when writing anything on this forum, be it my own experiences, observations or opinions, either substantiated or not, I can always look forward to being challenged - on any point, or at any time. Indeed, I am occasionally disappointed when all I receive is "likes" - and all the while I suspect that there are some folks just being far too polite to say: "Whoa, hold on mate, you're way off beam there... and I can prove it!" Yes, that can frequently be embarrassing, even sometimes deeply so, but I always try to temper that by recognising the benefit of being corrected by others with more personal knowledge or access to other information than I could ever hope for, and the ultimate joy of getting closer to the truth, by whatever route that may be acquired!
There is one thing that has been of some concern to me, and again particularly of late, that of the many thousands (?) of words I have already written on this one subject alone, along with a myriad of images posted in support of same, and including so many wonderfully informative, constructive and sometimes delightfully humorous replies - are almost impossible to convert into some form of "hard copy".
I am constantly fearful that so much could be lost in the mere blink of an eye, and find myself really wishing that if only I had the time to do it, that perhaps a carefully edited, typed and re-formatted (would that be the correct term?) version could be created... that might then be better preserved with ink on paper, for more to enjoy - and especially to save something for the next generation or two?!
Pete.
I must admit that whilst I very much appreciate every facility that this medium of the internet provides, I remain a passionate believer in the importance of the traditional, printed word. Is it perhaps a notion of, or sense of security that comes from a degree of certainty that, quite unlike data collected and saved electronically, once a book is published, there is more of a likelihood of at least a handful of copies surviving any sort of catastrophe, be it natural or man made?
Your suggestion on very much those lines has coincided with recurring thoughts that I have been having - perhaps particularly so during the holiday just mentioned, and my subsequent confinement earlier this last week. Whilst we were away, I had the opportunity to visit again a favourite location; with an excellent book sales counter that always seems to come up with plenty of specific interest for me! Repeated bouts of illness also keep reminding me of things that I would rather not contemplate too much about.
I must admit to suffering some anxieties at the prospect of authorship though:
Having only earlier today been mercilessly critical of someone else's dedication and hard work, I am slightly terrified by the finality of printed publication, knowing only too well my own limitations and an unerring ability to make even more erroneous judgements myself. Once committed to print, it is impossible to retract!
The thing that gives me the greatest comfort and pleasure when writing anything on this forum, be it my own experiences, observations or opinions, either substantiated or not, I can always look forward to being challenged - on any point, or at any time. Indeed, I am occasionally disappointed when all I receive is "likes" - and all the while I suspect that there are some folks just being far too polite to say: "Whoa, hold on mate, you're way off beam there... and I can prove it!" Yes, that can frequently be embarrassing, even sometimes deeply so, but I always try to temper that by recognising the benefit of being corrected by others with more personal knowledge or access to other information than I could ever hope for, and the ultimate joy of getting closer to the truth, by whatever route that may be acquired!
There is one thing that has been of some concern to me, and again particularly of late, that of the many thousands (?) of words I have already written on this one subject alone, along with a myriad of images posted in support of same, and including so many wonderfully informative, constructive and sometimes delightfully humorous replies - are almost impossible to convert into some form of "hard copy".
I am constantly fearful that so much could be lost in the mere blink of an eye, and find myself really wishing that if only I had the time to do it, that perhaps a carefully edited, typed and re-formatted (would that be the correct term?) version could be created... that might then be better preserved with ink on paper, for more to enjoy - and especially to save something for the next generation or two?!
Pete.
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Osgood
Western Thunderer
You might be on the right track with re-typing posts from scratch, Pete.
I once turned the content of a forum thread into printable form via multiple copy + paste + reformat operations.
Only once - I decided life was too short.
I wonder if any new visitors to this thread, having arrived via ‘new posts’ and not ‘page 1’, would have the slightest idea that all this amazing plumbing sits upon a boiler made from a length of 8” dia. cardboard tube (albeit it of the stout variety)?
I once turned the content of a forum thread into printable form via multiple copy + paste + reformat operations.
Only once - I decided life was too short.
I wonder if any new visitors to this thread, having arrived via ‘new posts’ and not ‘page 1’, would have the slightest idea that all this amazing plumbing sits upon a boiler made from a length of 8” dia. cardboard tube (albeit it of the stout variety)?
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Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you Tony, you are quite right on both counts!
One particular problem for me is something that none will be aware of; and that is simply that many people find it quite easy to write down their thoughts in little more time than it takes to type... or should that read the other way round?!
Whatever, a single sentence, let alone a whole paragraph - that may only take second or two for anyone to read - may have taken me almost an hour to consider, type, read through, delete, re-type and re-read before I feel confident enough to commit and move on to the next. Composing a complete post usually takes me a full, half day. Please believe me; it is not infrequent for me to take a couple of days work before I am happy enough to press the "post reply" button!
It is a most frustrating handicap that has always been a part of my life, and I have just had to accept that "it is what it is"! I was at school when children with what we now call "learning difficulties" were still generally referred to as "dunces", and I am painfully aware that I caused quite a high degree of confusion among teaching staff and other concerned professionals: Remarks like: "But Peter, you are definitely not an idiot, but for goodness sake, I can't mark empty pages in your exercise books" right through to the (presumably exasperated?) clear and unequivocal threats of physical violence; "unless you buck your ideas up son", are desperately loud echoes from those times that I still cannot quite be free of.
Might that go some way towards explaining why I am so obsessed with the legacy aspect? Managing to write down something that both represents the muddle and mess in my head - and that which (always to my great surprise) actually turns out to be both readable, or even better, enjoyable for others to read, each time becomes too much of an individual triumph for me to easily let go of!
I've recently been asked to write an article about our little railway for a magazine, and I would really like to do it... but I doubt that I could be much more terrified by the prospect than if there was a rabid "American Bully" running loose in my front garden!
On the second point; I'm afraid that does appear to be a significant issue for all users of electronic media.
It is relatively easy to pick up a book or album and "flick" through it to find what it is about, whether you might be interested in the content, or what you are specifically looking for - but when information is stored on a computer, and you don't necessarily know what the appropriate keyword is to use... you just have to scroll, and scroll, and scroll up or down endless, and time consuming "pages"!
Is it any wonder then, in my experience when searching anyway, that most questions asked in all sorts of online forums are very rarely answered? Respondents usually only react to the last few lines of text that they can see in front of them on their screens!
It is not their fault...
It is just that life really is, as you say Tony, much too short!
Pete.
One particular problem for me is something that none will be aware of; and that is simply that many people find it quite easy to write down their thoughts in little more time than it takes to type... or should that read the other way round?!
Whatever, a single sentence, let alone a whole paragraph - that may only take second or two for anyone to read - may have taken me almost an hour to consider, type, read through, delete, re-type and re-read before I feel confident enough to commit and move on to the next. Composing a complete post usually takes me a full, half day. Please believe me; it is not infrequent for me to take a couple of days work before I am happy enough to press the "post reply" button!
It is a most frustrating handicap that has always been a part of my life, and I have just had to accept that "it is what it is"! I was at school when children with what we now call "learning difficulties" were still generally referred to as "dunces", and I am painfully aware that I caused quite a high degree of confusion among teaching staff and other concerned professionals: Remarks like: "But Peter, you are definitely not an idiot, but for goodness sake, I can't mark empty pages in your exercise books" right through to the (presumably exasperated?) clear and unequivocal threats of physical violence; "unless you buck your ideas up son", are desperately loud echoes from those times that I still cannot quite be free of.
Might that go some way towards explaining why I am so obsessed with the legacy aspect? Managing to write down something that both represents the muddle and mess in my head - and that which (always to my great surprise) actually turns out to be both readable, or even better, enjoyable for others to read, each time becomes too much of an individual triumph for me to easily let go of!
I've recently been asked to write an article about our little railway for a magazine, and I would really like to do it... but I doubt that I could be much more terrified by the prospect than if there was a rabid "American Bully" running loose in my front garden!
On the second point; I'm afraid that does appear to be a significant issue for all users of electronic media.
It is relatively easy to pick up a book or album and "flick" through it to find what it is about, whether you might be interested in the content, or what you are specifically looking for - but when information is stored on a computer, and you don't necessarily know what the appropriate keyword is to use... you just have to scroll, and scroll, and scroll up or down endless, and time consuming "pages"!
Is it any wonder then, in my experience when searching anyway, that most questions asked in all sorts of online forums are very rarely answered? Respondents usually only react to the last few lines of text that they can see in front of them on their screens!
It is not their fault...
It is just that life really is, as you say Tony, much too short!
Pete.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Pete - I've just scrapped a long reply as the more I read of it the more it appeared to be a history of my working life and total self aggrandisement which was never my intention. I was just lucky in employment, leaving school with, as The Goons would say, two 0 levels and a budgerigar so possibly went through my school years in much the way you did. However, your writings are inspiring and simply demonstrate what joy (and frustration) there is to be had in trial and error engineering. Oh! The feeling of elation when something goes right!
You're probably right to be nervous about committing to anything you know is going to take a long time to reach your high levels of personal expectation. It just seems a shame if your writings are not retained somewhere, particularly those things you've established which are wrong in the loco as preserved.
Brian
You're probably right to be nervous about committing to anything you know is going to take a long time to reach your high levels of personal expectation. It just seems a shame if your writings are not retained somewhere, particularly those things you've established which are wrong in the loco as preserved.
Brian
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you again Brian. Please be assured that I am starting to think a little more seriously about this matter, and this afternoon my wife has been trying to encourage me to take this forward by making some positive and helpful suggestions!
Mind you, I should point out that my father wrote his memoirs - and finally managed to get them printed - but sadly, not quite published! My good lady did however make it abundantly clear with her last comment; in that if she has to put up with half of what my mother endured, I might find myself well and truly out on my ear'ole!
Methinks it might be wise to be a little more respectful of the home furnishings for the time being?!
Pete.
Mind you, I should point out that my father wrote his memoirs - and finally managed to get them printed - but sadly, not quite published! My good lady did however make it abundantly clear with her last comment; in that if she has to put up with half of what my mother endured, I might find myself well and truly out on my ear'ole!
Methinks it might be wise to be a little more respectful of the home furnishings for the time being?!
Pete.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Well said, Pete.
The thing is, you don't need to tell anyone else what's going on in the background. Also you should get your father's memoirs printed! There's more than enough interest in that social history now. @Yorkshire Dave and @mickoo would have an interest as well ( and I've not talked to them yet). That means that there would be a few viewers on here and a much wider audience, even if it's restricted to the local area.
Perhaps the trick is to not tell anyone what you are doing (apart from the railway things, of course).
Your wife must be made of strong stuff!
Best wishes.
Brian
The thing is, you don't need to tell anyone else what's going on in the background. Also you should get your father's memoirs printed! There's more than enough interest in that social history now. @Yorkshire Dave and @mickoo would have an interest as well ( and I've not talked to them yet). That means that there would be a few viewers on here and a much wider audience, even if it's restricted to the local area.
Perhaps the trick is to not tell anyone what you are doing (apart from the railway things, of course).
Your wife must be made of strong stuff!
Best wishes.
Brian
Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen
Western Thunderer
Hi Pete,
I'm sure your father's memoirs would be fascinating to many people, social history is a subject that I and many others thoroughly enjoy.
As for your notes and records of your locomotive build and research into the 'prototype' please put into some sort of document. I appreciate that it is hard work but it doesn't have to be perfect. Better to have something than nothing.
The Love Lane team haven't heard from you for so long, when we hear from or see you again? Your ears must be burning from all the things we blame you for!
all the best
Tim
I'm sure your father's memoirs would be fascinating to many people, social history is a subject that I and many others thoroughly enjoy.
As for your notes and records of your locomotive build and research into the 'prototype' please put into some sort of document. I appreciate that it is hard work but it doesn't have to be perfect. Better to have something than nothing.
The Love Lane team haven't heard from you for so long, when we hear from or see you again? Your ears must be burning from all the things we blame you for!
all the best
Tim
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
Pete, you are not alone I promise you. I used to see so many "like" responses I wondered if folk thought I wouldn't understand a corrective suggestion if they made it. And I have edited some posts so hard I have destroyed just about all of the soul and humanity in them.
As far as I can see, there are two sorts of members here - creators and consumers. I get pulled up if I write something downright wrong and I get (usually) constructive suggestions to make my models better. Sometimes the suggestions come after finishing said model but that's life! Given that WT is such a wonderful place to share all kinds of different modelling, I cannot imagine a better place to post our stuff.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I was just beginning to worry that I had perhaps revealed a little too much of the personal stuff, but thank you again Brian, and to Tim and Richard too for your most heartening replies.
After I have obtained some advice and practical assistance with a format that I can manage to cope with at home, I do hope that by making a start on selecting excerpts and basically copying out some of my postings might help to get things rolling, and even give me a slightly better idea of what might be involved? I am really hoping that it may not be quite as difficult as first feared?!
In the mean time, there is still the small (!) matter of bringing this particular thread back up to date...!
I'm only a week behind now... but I guess nobody wants to know about my medical conditions as well?!
Pete.
After I have obtained some advice and practical assistance with a format that I can manage to cope with at home, I do hope that by making a start on selecting excerpts and basically copying out some of my postings might help to get things rolling, and even give me a slightly better idea of what might be involved? I am really hoping that it may not be quite as difficult as first feared?!
In the mean time, there is still the small (!) matter of bringing this particular thread back up to date...!
I'm only a week behind now... but I guess nobody wants to know about my medical conditions as well?!
Pete.
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Peter, your posts always come across well,l as far as I am concerned, I would have said you were quite an accomplished wordsmith, on top of your many other talents.
There are 2 types of people in this world. The kind who are their own greatest advocates and the kind who are their own harshest critics. Politicians tend to fall into the former category and model makers into the latter!!
Keep up the good work.
There are 2 types of people in this world. The kind who are their own greatest advocates and the kind who are their own harshest critics. Politicians tend to fall into the former category and model makers into the latter!!
Keep up the good work.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Now coming back to the tale of our holiday, and the pertinent opportunity that presented! I would like to mention a couple of points briefly before getting on to the main subject...
Barmouth, in North Wales, is for me, not merely a nice place to go for a break, but feels more like something of a homecoming each time I return! My grandmother and mother went to live there from 1940 until late in 1945, during which time they made many local friends, and some of them remained in fairly regular contact for the rest of their lives. As a family, we therefore visited whenever the opportunity arose, and I can happily report that as the new generations have come along, my own offspring seem quite willing to continue with the tradition!
Over the years it had been desperately sad to observe the continued deterioration of the iconic, landmark railway bridge, particularly that of the unique iron and steel section. Finally, and far from inevitably, the authorities agreed to replace it with a brand new structure. The huge undertaking was completed earlier this year, so quite apart from all the other delights available in the district, I was fairly keen to get there and inspect the end result for myself!
It is a very, very good thing, a superb bit of modern engineering, and the designers did fairly well at producing a reasonable looking replica in overall appearance. However, the old bridge it is clearly not, so I was quite delighted to discover that a small (!) section of the original has been preserved for posterity elsewhere in the town:
Another surprise came towards the end of our week there: For some time I had been aware of an amazing 7mm scale model of the bridge that had been doing the exhibition circuit for several years, but I had never been in the right place to actually see it. Imagine my utter joy at unexpectedly discovering that a significant portion of the model is now on permanent display, having been donated to the Fairbourne Railway's little museum!
Apart from the enthusiastically applied, but slightly overpowering backscene, (dare I say that?) it is indeed an utterly magnificent example of modelling prowess - and of absolute, unwavering dedication to the subject! Photography simply could not do it justice!
It can be seen in my earlier images, that the weather was unseasonably (ha-ha) bright at the beginning of our stay, but realistically not expected to last...
It didn't!
I had a cunning plan for that:
At the very first sign of any wet stuff heading our way, I was going to hop on a train... and ride south to Tywyn, especially to visit one particular little beauty...
Ah, and with huge thanks to the wonderfully welcoming, altogether accommodating, endlessly enthusiastic, and just downright nice volunteer staff at the Narrow Gauge Museum, I was granted unfettered access, and was privileged be able to get up close and intimate with this venerable old lady!
At long last... well, at least eight years since I started this project, hope that a pile of outstanding queries and mysteries might find unequivocal answers and satisfactory resolutions.
Pete.
Barmouth, in North Wales, is for me, not merely a nice place to go for a break, but feels more like something of a homecoming each time I return! My grandmother and mother went to live there from 1940 until late in 1945, during which time they made many local friends, and some of them remained in fairly regular contact for the rest of their lives. As a family, we therefore visited whenever the opportunity arose, and I can happily report that as the new generations have come along, my own offspring seem quite willing to continue with the tradition!
Over the years it had been desperately sad to observe the continued deterioration of the iconic, landmark railway bridge, particularly that of the unique iron and steel section. Finally, and far from inevitably, the authorities agreed to replace it with a brand new structure. The huge undertaking was completed earlier this year, so quite apart from all the other delights available in the district, I was fairly keen to get there and inspect the end result for myself!
It is a very, very good thing, a superb bit of modern engineering, and the designers did fairly well at producing a reasonable looking replica in overall appearance. However, the old bridge it is clearly not, so I was quite delighted to discover that a small (!) section of the original has been preserved for posterity elsewhere in the town:
Another surprise came towards the end of our week there: For some time I had been aware of an amazing 7mm scale model of the bridge that had been doing the exhibition circuit for several years, but I had never been in the right place to actually see it. Imagine my utter joy at unexpectedly discovering that a significant portion of the model is now on permanent display, having been donated to the Fairbourne Railway's little museum!
Apart from the enthusiastically applied, but slightly overpowering backscene, (dare I say that?) it is indeed an utterly magnificent example of modelling prowess - and of absolute, unwavering dedication to the subject! Photography simply could not do it justice!
It can be seen in my earlier images, that the weather was unseasonably (ha-ha) bright at the beginning of our stay, but realistically not expected to last...
It didn't!
I had a cunning plan for that:
At the very first sign of any wet stuff heading our way, I was going to hop on a train... and ride south to Tywyn, especially to visit one particular little beauty...
Ah, and with huge thanks to the wonderfully welcoming, altogether accommodating, endlessly enthusiastic, and just downright nice volunteer staff at the Narrow Gauge Museum, I was granted unfettered access, and was privileged be able to get up close and intimate with this venerable old lady!
At long last... well, at least eight years since I started this project, hope that a pile of outstanding queries and mysteries might find unequivocal answers and satisfactory resolutions.
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Who am I trying to kid? Am I forgetting that most fundamental law; that every question answered will only raise yet more...?!
It was so good to be able to study Beyer Peacock's "Dot" in detail at Tywyn, and while I carried a list of specific items for close examination in order to be able to make accurate representations of parts modified or missing from the Horwich "Wren", it was also interesting to look at the locomotive in the overall. I was keen to seek some broader clarity around the various bits of information gathered, either from previous research, or my own observations and assumptions. Perhaps a more detailed look at the historical background, as much as possible anyway, of this little engine might prove interesting to some of you?
Earlier in this thread, (posts including no.597 to no.608) I questioned why two machines, potentially built concurrently, but with no apparent record of precisely which order of precedence either might have been completed, and while they appeared to be superficially identical, both were given the same name? In the aforementioned posts, I had identified the unique drawbar arrangement of the Tywyn "Dot" as possible evidence of the "rope shunting" adaptation.
Here are some cropped images to explain where some of my thoughts were going:
The above image (copied and shown for illustrative purposes only) shows "Robin" on the left, one of the first pair of Beyer Peacock engines delivered to Horwich, with it's original, inverted tee cut out in the headstock, while on the right is "Mouse", clearly showing the later, Horwich arrangement - and incidentally as per BP drawings - including the different bolt pattern on same!
Both examples also show the revised buffing plate/couplers subsequently fitted to all of the Horwich locomotives.
This next picture (similar copyright declaration) shows the headstock on Horwich's "Dot"; apparently delivered only shortly after the Jubilee exhibition, showing the completely different cut out! The image also reveals not only the revised buffing plate/coupler, but also a set of plain, disc wheels. (more of that later!)
Then look at what is fitted to Beyer Peacock's own, in-house "Dot" in the following image:
Well, well, well, just lookee here! No less than the "missing" inverted tee headstock - complete with cast buffing plate, (as also originally fitted to the Horwich engines) and the same, non specification bolt pattern too, although it is worth noting that the said buffing plate had been raised at some time, thus hiding the lower bolts!
This particular "Dot" has, (and still retains) plain disc wheels as well. This latter feature is also an unspecified element!
Why would Beyer Peacock have deviated from the plans in such manner? I had an idea, and while "Dot" at Tywyn is mounted with it's smokebox closely facing a corner of the museum walls in somewhat shamed fashion, I was able to squeeze in and reach down in an attempt to test the theory! I then discovered two things: The raised buffing plate may be have been done in later service, but one thing is quite certain, the loco must have worked on lines with very generous radii curves, as the drawbar traverse is thus severely restricted! Also, and when looking closely at what is behind the headstock, it would appear that two, newer, long bolts and nuts have been used to re-fit the old buffing plate. They foul the drawbar even more, reducing the swing still further! There is absolutely no indication of any regular contact between the items either, so I think it is fairly safe to assume that the buffing plate was re-fitted at the time of "restoration".
The main point of my argument is that after having to carefully line everything up by eye, and based on the assumption that the buffer is in it's originally intended position, the hooked drawbar would indeed lock neatly into the narrow portion of the cut out when pulled fully over to either left or right. I suggest that the action of hauling a wagon by a rope or chain on adjacent and parallel lines would pull the bar firmly over, and prevent an eye or loop in the rope from slipping downwards off the hook! Despite the "special" headstocks being fitted to "Robin" and "Wren" at Horwich, their own drawbars remained as originally designed, so could not have worked in this way. Might this explain the catalogue entry? If it does, that could mean that the engine at Tywyn is maybe more likely to have been the one that was actually exhibited - instead of what the "official" accounts claim?
By the way, I have diligently searched both "preserved" locomotives now, and have so far not found a single identifying mark, or date stamping anywhere, and as none ever carried any form of worksplate, other than a plain declaration of manufacturer and year of construction, any surreptitious substitution would have been very unlikely to have aroused any suspicion, let alone be discovered and proven!
Beware my assertations though, as there is a fly in the ointment! The peculiar arrangement described is only applied to the leading headstock, so in order to shunt by such method I presume the engine must have been facing in the right direction, and only able to haul a wagon by running in reverse?! Such a facility would have been of no use whatsoever at Horwich though, as the peculiar drawbar could not have been used with any of the rolling stock there anyway!
If it subsequently transpires that I am talking utter nonsense, there is one other feature that was common to all the locomotives - and indeed was also to be found on Ramsbottom's Crewe engines too - but intriguingly is now missing from Tywyn "Dot", and that is the "lug" attached to the horizontal centre line of the boiler on either side. While the purpose of those lugs was almost certainly for lifting the boiler, (the cladding timbers and clothing sheets extend for the full length underneath, including the smokebox, and thus might preclude the use of any type of strop) I would have thought that dropping a hitch in the eye of the lug would have sufficed perfectly, allowing the engine to merrily perform a shunt in both directions? The latter may put Horwich "Dot" back in the frame, but it does seem a trifle odd to specifically refer to standard fittings as an "adaptation"?
All rather curious?!
Pete.
It was so good to be able to study Beyer Peacock's "Dot" in detail at Tywyn, and while I carried a list of specific items for close examination in order to be able to make accurate representations of parts modified or missing from the Horwich "Wren", it was also interesting to look at the locomotive in the overall. I was keen to seek some broader clarity around the various bits of information gathered, either from previous research, or my own observations and assumptions. Perhaps a more detailed look at the historical background, as much as possible anyway, of this little engine might prove interesting to some of you?
Earlier in this thread, (posts including no.597 to no.608) I questioned why two machines, potentially built concurrently, but with no apparent record of precisely which order of precedence either might have been completed, and while they appeared to be superficially identical, both were given the same name? In the aforementioned posts, I had identified the unique drawbar arrangement of the Tywyn "Dot" as possible evidence of the "rope shunting" adaptation.
Here are some cropped images to explain where some of my thoughts were going:
The above image (copied and shown for illustrative purposes only) shows "Robin" on the left, one of the first pair of Beyer Peacock engines delivered to Horwich, with it's original, inverted tee cut out in the headstock, while on the right is "Mouse", clearly showing the later, Horwich arrangement - and incidentally as per BP drawings - including the different bolt pattern on same!
Both examples also show the revised buffing plate/couplers subsequently fitted to all of the Horwich locomotives.
This next picture (similar copyright declaration) shows the headstock on Horwich's "Dot"; apparently delivered only shortly after the Jubilee exhibition, showing the completely different cut out! The image also reveals not only the revised buffing plate/coupler, but also a set of plain, disc wheels. (more of that later!)
Then look at what is fitted to Beyer Peacock's own, in-house "Dot" in the following image:
Well, well, well, just lookee here! No less than the "missing" inverted tee headstock - complete with cast buffing plate, (as also originally fitted to the Horwich engines) and the same, non specification bolt pattern too, although it is worth noting that the said buffing plate had been raised at some time, thus hiding the lower bolts!
This particular "Dot" has, (and still retains) plain disc wheels as well. This latter feature is also an unspecified element!
Why would Beyer Peacock have deviated from the plans in such manner? I had an idea, and while "Dot" at Tywyn is mounted with it's smokebox closely facing a corner of the museum walls in somewhat shamed fashion, I was able to squeeze in and reach down in an attempt to test the theory! I then discovered two things: The raised buffing plate may be have been done in later service, but one thing is quite certain, the loco must have worked on lines with very generous radii curves, as the drawbar traverse is thus severely restricted! Also, and when looking closely at what is behind the headstock, it would appear that two, newer, long bolts and nuts have been used to re-fit the old buffing plate. They foul the drawbar even more, reducing the swing still further! There is absolutely no indication of any regular contact between the items either, so I think it is fairly safe to assume that the buffing plate was re-fitted at the time of "restoration".
The main point of my argument is that after having to carefully line everything up by eye, and based on the assumption that the buffer is in it's originally intended position, the hooked drawbar would indeed lock neatly into the narrow portion of the cut out when pulled fully over to either left or right. I suggest that the action of hauling a wagon by a rope or chain on adjacent and parallel lines would pull the bar firmly over, and prevent an eye or loop in the rope from slipping downwards off the hook! Despite the "special" headstocks being fitted to "Robin" and "Wren" at Horwich, their own drawbars remained as originally designed, so could not have worked in this way. Might this explain the catalogue entry? If it does, that could mean that the engine at Tywyn is maybe more likely to have been the one that was actually exhibited - instead of what the "official" accounts claim?
By the way, I have diligently searched both "preserved" locomotives now, and have so far not found a single identifying mark, or date stamping anywhere, and as none ever carried any form of worksplate, other than a plain declaration of manufacturer and year of construction, any surreptitious substitution would have been very unlikely to have aroused any suspicion, let alone be discovered and proven!
Beware my assertations though, as there is a fly in the ointment! The peculiar arrangement described is only applied to the leading headstock, so in order to shunt by such method I presume the engine must have been facing in the right direction, and only able to haul a wagon by running in reverse?! Such a facility would have been of no use whatsoever at Horwich though, as the peculiar drawbar could not have been used with any of the rolling stock there anyway!
If it subsequently transpires that I am talking utter nonsense, there is one other feature that was common to all the locomotives - and indeed was also to be found on Ramsbottom's Crewe engines too - but intriguingly is now missing from Tywyn "Dot", and that is the "lug" attached to the horizontal centre line of the boiler on either side. While the purpose of those lugs was almost certainly for lifting the boiler, (the cladding timbers and clothing sheets extend for the full length underneath, including the smokebox, and thus might preclude the use of any type of strop) I would have thought that dropping a hitch in the eye of the lug would have sufficed perfectly, allowing the engine to merrily perform a shunt in both directions? The latter may put Horwich "Dot" back in the frame, but it does seem a trifle odd to specifically refer to standard fittings as an "adaptation"?
All rather curious?!
Pete.